Injectors Just Wont Fire.... at all

[GSTdude06]

I finished my 6bolt swap quite some time ago but I kept running into more and more problems. I believe i've narrowed it down to injectors not firing. But why?
I get fuel to the rail, I have some pressure but the injectors arn't firing.

The engine cranks over good and strong after I put a new starter on it. I read on a thread that maybe the vacuums lines have to be hooked up, is that true?
I have 3 vacuum lines unhooked that are hooked to a big black thing under the battery, where do those lines hook up to?

Any help is appreciated....

thanks

 

[laserspeeddemon]

None firing injectors are symptons of a bad CAS among other things (like a bad ECU). I would check the CAS. Also check for spark. You can check to see if your injectors are getting a signal the with a timing light, just like using it on a spark plug wire.

 

[Big Woo]

Since you did a 6-bolt swap, what method/wiring change did you do to allow the use of the 1G CAS? First off I would verify that the wiring mods you did are correct. then move onto checking the CAS and other components to verify thier condition.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Since you did a 6-bolt swap, what method/wiring change did you do to allow the use of the 1G CAS? First off I would verify that the wiring mods you did are correct. then move onto checking the CAS and other components to verify thier condition.

Yay! What he said.

 

[GSTdude06]

I wired my CAS according to this
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1gcasin2g97-99.htm
and all my connections are good, ive double checked them all.
I did the timing light trick and it doesn't light up.
Bad CAS? It was off the motor I did my swap with, the 1g motor I bought.
I have 89-90
MD121786
Green Lid, Optical Type, Long Wire Harness
that CAS 89-90 should I try a 91-92 or 93-94?

I just read this..
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1gcasin2g95-96M2.htm
it says to swap the injector wires on the ECU, should I do this?
And what order is the spark wires? 4123 4321?

 

[kenamond]

Are you getting spark?

When my CAS went bad, I still got fuel, but fuel and spark happened at the wrong times. Maybe it's different on a 1g, and maybe it's different if it's completely disconnected.

 

[GSTdude06]

See i'm not quite sure, cause I use to get lil pops out the exhaust but not anymore
my step dad thought thats what happened, just not at the right times
but now he doesn't think im getting fuel out the injectors cause the lines never pulse with a 12v charge

 

[Big Woo]

I would start checking parts/components. The "green lid" CAS is a hall effect type sensor. The included CAS pigtail suggests that it is a 1990 CAS. The optical type CAS's came on the 93/94's and have a black curved plastic cover.

The injector plug swap is for phasing the injector on times, since the 1G CAS on a 2g inverts the sognal. However the car will still run and drive, just not quite as crisply.

I remember when a CAS went bad on my 1993 talon, and the car would not run.

When you installed the 1G CAS did you remember to place number 1 cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke, and then align the timing marks on the CAS prior to installing it?

If so it may be time to run the CAS test from the Haynes or Chilton manual.

 

[steve]

I would start checking parts/components. The "green lid" CAS is a hall effect type sensor. The included CAS pigtail suggests that it is a 1990 CAS. The optical type CAS's came on the 93/94's and have a black curved plastic cover.

You have the guts reversed. The early style green lid CAS were optical and the later black lid use a hall effect type sensor.

Steve

 

[laserspeeddemon]

I would start checking parts/components. The "green lid" CAS is a hall effect type sensor. The included CAS pigtail suggests that it is a 1990 CAS. The optical type CAS's came on the 93/94's and have a black curved plastic cover.

The injector plug swap is for phasing the injector on times, since the 1G CAS on a 2g inverts the sognal. However the car will still run and drive, just not quite as crisply.

I remember when a CAS went bad on my 1993 talon, and the car would not run.

When you installed the 1G CAS did you remember to place number 1 cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke, and then align the timing marks on the CAS prior to installing it?

If so it may be time to run the CAS test from the Haynes or Chilton manual.

Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[steve]

Actually I believe the green top with a long tail is a 91. The 90's have green tops and a connector directly on the CAS.

No, you have them backward. The 90 CAS is the one with the attached harness. From 91 on the connector was on the CAS.

Steve

 

[Big Woo]

Steve you are correct I had them reversed. but the 91 thru 94 CAS's have the plug directly on the CAS itself.

From the RRE site:
Anatomy of a Cam Angle Sensor:
There are three types of cam angle sensor that are known to work. The early years (89-92) have a metal green/gray cover, use a flat rotating disk with slots, and an optical sensor. The later year sensor (93-94) has a black plastic cover, uses curved metal plates that rotate through a hall-effect sensor. The hall effect sensor is physically similar to the technology used in the 95-96 cam and crank sensors. Theoretically the hall effect sensor is higher resolution. They all work.


From the Haynes manual

CAS test
1: disconnect the electrical connector for the camshaft sensor, turn key on, measure supply voltage on pin #3 it should be near 12v.

2: check pin #1 on the harness side for a signal voltage 4.8 to 5.2 V.

3: check ground circuit continuity on pin #4

4: if this CAS circuit tests ok everywhere above replace the sensor. If one of the above mentioned tests fails then fix that problem first and repete test.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

No, you have them backward. The 90 CAS is the one with the attached harness. From 91 on the connector was on the CAS.

Steve

Hmmm. I double checked with a few DSM pics, I seem to got them confused as well.

 

[GSTdude06]

well I have the 89-90 type CAS
so should I switch the pin out on the injectors, or wait till it runs?
I opened my ECU and I didn't see any leaking, it looked all good.
Is the CAS the only thing besides the ECU that would keep my injectors from firing?

Thanks

 

[ArticNemesis]

well I have the 89-90 type CAS
so should I switch the pin out on the injectors, or wait till it runs?

Swapping pins for injectors is for 95-96 ECU's only. You have a 1997 listed on your profile, so skip that step.

So have you confirmed that the injectors are not opening? Crank it over, pull a spark plug. Is it gas soaked? Stick a rolled up paper towel into the cylinder (don't drop it! ) and see if there is gas on that.

Any chance you can take a picture of your wiring job? The popping from the exhaust and intermittent lack thereof sounds exactly like the symptoms when my crank angle sensor died before I swapped to a 6bolt.

Big Woo posted how to check it, let's see some results!

 

[GSTdude06]

Well I have a 95 ECU cause I have dsmlink but a 6bolt engine now. So would I swap them or not?
ill upload the pictures asap and there is no gas in the cylinders

Thanks,
Logan

 

[ArticNemesis]

No, there is an option in DSM-Link to invert the CAS signal, so there is no pin swap necessary.

**edit** while you are out there, check out the CAS how Big Woo posted. That's good info, and the sure way to be sure your wiring is correct.

 

[steve]

He doesn't think I'm getting fuel out the injectors cause the lines never pulse with a 12v charge

The injectors are fed 12v when the ignition is on, it's the ground side than gets switched to make the injectors fire. So if you unplug an injector one pin will be at battery voltage and the other will float or be at 0v if the ECU is trying to fire it.

It's a good idea to make sure that the injector do get power while your checking that CAS operation.

Since you have a 90 CAS you need to use the 90 wiring and pin numbers since they are different from the 91+ connections. I don't know where RRE got the yellow wire from in their diagrams

If yours is like the 90 sample I have the wires in the CAS harness are black (1), red (2), white (3), yellow (4).
The wires in the 90 car harness are Black (1 - Ground), Red (2 - 12v), White(3 - TDC), Black (4 - Crank Angle).
The later style CAS car harness uses White (1 - TDC), Black (2 - Crank Angle), Red (3 - 12v), Black (4 - Ground).

Both signal lines are pulled up by the ECU to 5v and the CAS pulls them low as it turns, 4 pulses per rev on the Crank Sensor signals and 2 per rev on the TDC line.

Steve

 

[GSTdude06]

my CAS is hooked up as followed:

CAS
Red(1) Black(2) Yellow(3) White(4)
Its hooked up as
Red to Red
Black to Black
Yellow to Blue
and the White is hooked to a Blue on a different plug.....

 

[ArticNemesis]

my CAS is hooked up as followed:

CAS
Red(1) Black(2) Yellow(3) White(4)
Its hooked up as
Red to Red
Black to Black
Yellow to Blue
and the White is hooked to a Blue on a different plug.....

Hrmm, The Red and Black wires are switched around on your harness? It's not White, Yellow, Red, Black?

If so, Pin 4(You have it labeled as red, should be black) goes to Pin 3 on the crank sensor (triangle plug (black))
Pin 3(You have it labeled as black, should be red) goes to Pin 1 on the crank sensor (triangle plug(red))

If indeed your wire color varies on your CAS, then you need to swap it so it's Red to Black, and Black to Red. Don't go by the actual colors of the wires, in case for some odd reason they are varying. Make sure you are connecting the right wires with the right wires.

Make any sense?

 

[GSTdude06]

so right now your saying my wires should just need to be switched? Cause they are hooked up accordingly to the color... red to red black to black

 

[blackgst256]

So do you know which injectors are firing or not firing? Or are they all not working?

 

[ArticNemesis]

well, that's only if you wires coming off your CAS are in that order. Where's the picture so I can verify. !?! You need to make sure that you connect the right pins on the connecter to the right pins on the CAS wiring. Ignore the color for now.

Have you done test that Big Woo has suggested, and/or verified that the injectors are not activating

 

[GSTdude06]

Injectors are NOT firing spark IS firing
and ill change the wires and let yall know

thanks

EDIT: I switched the wires to red-black black-red and it still just turns over, wont start. I'm about to pull a plug to see if fuels in the cylinder

 

[GSTdude06]

Alright well I hooked up the new CAS I tried black to black and red to black black to red but still nothing
I also barely have any fuel pressure why?