Information and advice for fuel system

[USAF 98 GSX]

Background info: 98 GSX, all maintenance completed, minor mods (Intake, exhaust, DSM Link v3 and FMIC), everything else on car is stock.

Future goals: 500-600hp, E85.

Road to goal: I started my journey by completing the most important thing when buying a used car. ALL Maintenance costs and repairs. Car came with FMIC installed when I bought it, I installed intake, test-pipe (removed cat) and the bought DSM Link v3. I recently bought a beautiful rebuilt 14b and Ive decided its time to start my journey with supporting mods. I would like to first start with my fuel system. I would like to have an in-tank 255, in-line 255, full nylon braid fuel line to filter, new filter assy, braided line to rail, upgraded fuel rail, braided line to FPR, upgraded FPR, and a fully braided return line to tank. (I'm honestly not even sure if thats the correct route of fuel lines and components)
I will also be installing 1600cc injectors with all of these parts.

Questions:

With my high HP goal, can I use 8 AN lines all around? Even the return line? (Or is the return line always supposed to be smaller?)

Should I use two 255lph pumps or one 455lph pump?

Believe it or not the fuel system on a DSM is one of the few systems I know very little about. To be honest, I am actually unsure the route of fuel lines and fuel components. I have drawn a simple diagram using Paint which shows what I think is the correct way the fuel flows through our vehicles. Go ahead a laugh. Lol.

Any advice, tips, corrections and comments would be greatly appreciated. I tried to include everything you might need to know to help me out. Thank you in advance!

 

[Calan]

Not a chance I believe a single 450 cant net you 600hp on E85.

We all know the differences between theoretical and real world numbers, but...

An airflow of 65 lbs/min and AFR of 12.0:1 (netting around 580-600whp with a good tune) would require approximately 198 ltr/hour of fuel. Allowing for an extra 30% fudge factor for E85, that would be roughly 258 ltr/hr of fuel required. If the 450 flows anywhere near the advertised amount of fuel, it should easily support that power range.

At a BSFC of .65 and 43.5 BFP, 2100cc injectors should be around 80%.

DISCLAIMER - It's late, I'm tired, and I've had the flu for 5 days. Feel free to punch holes in my math where needed.

 

[USAF 98 GSX]

We all know the differences between theoretical and real world numbers, but...

An airflow of 65 lbs/min and AFR of 12.0:1 (netting around 580-600whp with a good tune) would require approximately 198 ltr/hour of fuel. Allowing for an extra 30% fudge factor for E85, that would be roughly 258 ltr/hr of fuel required. If the 450 flows anywhere near the advertised amount of fuel, it should easily support that power range.

At a BSFC of .65 and 43.5 BFP, 2100cc injectors should be around 80%.

DISCLAIMER - It's late, I'm tired, and I've had the flu for 5 days. Feel free to punch holes in my math where needed.

Not saying your incorrect because to be honest you lost me with your second equation, but why is he making 600whp with a 450 and a 255 and running at 80% IDC?

 

[Calan]

Not saying your incorrect because to be honest you lost me with your second equation, but why is he making 600whp with a 450 and a 255 and running at 80% IDC?

Ahhh... that's the $20k question.

There are a LOT of factors that go into it. Simply dropping the target AFR to 11.5:1 would add over 10 lph required. Not to mention that the amount of power available per lb of airflow varies greatly. Everyone uses the "10 hp per lb of airflow" rule, but I've found that it's more like 8.8 hp per lb of airflow in my logs, on average. So it's really anyone's guess as to why a certain setup can get x hp, while a similar setup gets y hp.

There are several known cases of people making over 500whp on a single wally 255hp. As an example, I believe Ricky Nichols (aka Dacowgod) made around 520 on a heart breaker dyno with a single 255hp + boosted voltage. As for phunny's particular case, I'm at a loss as to why he appears to be close to being fuel limited with that setup @ 600whp. Maybe he can offer up an explanation or find my error.

With that said, theoretical numbers are still useful for calculating minimum requirements, as long as the variables you plug in are accurate.

 

[dexterholland04]

-8 lines would work just fine for 500-600 whp. Also, a 6 or 7-blade HX-40 would work just fine to get you to that goal, I would run a PTE 6466 if I were you. That turbo would make that kind of power and have tons of room to grow. We sell 2200cc high impedance Bosch fuel injectors at a much better price that anyone else. Shoot me a PM if you want me to help you put together a fuel system as well as anything else! We have BEP housings for the Holset turbos, as well as the Batmowheels too! Plus, both Drew and I are military too!

 

[USAF 98 GSX]

Completely understandable. I just found a great thread back from 2008 with multiple individuals surpassing the 600 whp mark, a couple in the 800s and they are using two 255s. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/290215-walbro-255hp-max-hp.html

I guess I wasn't searching correctly at first, but I still love getting real-time feedback and up-to-date info regarding parts.

 

[USAF 98 GSX]

-8 lines would work just fine for 500-600 whp. Also, a 6 or 7-blade HX-40 would work just fine to get you to that goal, I would run a PTE 6466 if I were you. That turbo would make that kind of power and have tons of room to grow. We sell 2200cc high impedance Bosch fuel injectors at a much better price that anyone else. Shoot me a PM if you want me to help you put together a fuel system as well as anything else! We have BEP housings for the Holset turbos, as well as the Batmowheels too! Plus, both Drew and I are military too!

Awesome thank you for your insight. The turbo will be a bit in the future. Probably upcoming winter build. Just trying to build a rock solid fuel system that will basically never be altered just maintained. But I definitely would love to look into this injectors. I have about two weeks to make a solid list of parts and get them all at once.

 

[finesse49ers]

Like Calan already stated, I know plenty of Evo owners who are putting down 500+ whp on single Walbro 255's. Obviously they've made the necessary fuel injector upgrades but yes 500+whp on a single Walbro 255 is pretty common.

 

[Calan]

CI just found a great thread back from 2008 with multiple individuals surpassing the 600 whp mark, a couple in the 800s and they are using two 255s.

Yep. And that ^ is considered simple "old skool" stuff these days. That (along with the numbers) is why I'm at a loss as to why a 450 couldn't easily support that power level.

Just to toss this out there...

The Walbro 255's are not rated for E85 usage. In fact, if you talk to knowledgeable Walbro techs, they'll tell you that E85 is corrosive to the 255's armature and can cause pump failure.

Do people still run them with E85? Of course... In fact, I've been running them for years on E85 almost continuously with no issues. I did however fry a Deatschwerks pump that was rated for E85 due to a weird alien goo issue... but I digress.

 

[finesse49ers]

Yep. And that ^ is considered simple "old skool" stuff these days. That (along with the numbers) is why I'm at a loss as to why a 450 couldn't easily support that power level.

Just to toss this out there...

The Walbro 255's are not rated for E85 usage. In fact, if you talk to knowledgeable Walbro techs, they'll tell you that E85 is corrosive to the 255's armature and can cause pump failure.

Do people still run them with E85? Of course... In fact, I've been running them for years on E85 almost continuously with no issues. I did however fry a Deatschwerks pump that was rated for E85 due to a weird alien goo issue... but I digress.

I'm glad someone finally pointed that disclaimer out and it goes for the 400lph as well. That's why Walbro came out with the 450lph pump which they approve for E85 use.

 

[USAF 98 GSX]

Lol. So a single 450 intank will do. For now and if a 255 for some reason is needed It will be easy to install in-line. Thanks again Calan for the reassurance. I keep going back and forth between it but I can save the $100 from not buying the 255 and put it towards a catch can.

 

[Calan]

Since this thread got a little deeper than I expected, and since I sort of brought it up, this might be worth mentioning; there is another reason I went with dual 255 pumps instead of a single high-capacity pump, that you won't often find mentioned.

Most (if not all) of the new generation of high capacity pumps are a turbine design, rather than the older 255 type of design. This allows them to run quieter with much higher capacity. So why does it matter?

The turbine pumps have tighter tolerances and much smaller internal clearances. Because of this, turbine pumps are more susceptible to deposit build up, which can severely limit the output or increase internal pressure and overload the motor. Since E85 is a somewhat "dirty" fuel, especially when coming from blender pumps, it's important to religiously maintain a very clean fuel system, and check the tank every now and then for any signs of build up on or around the pump sock and tank walls.

If you want more info on where this is coming from, open a beverage and read this: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/416147-e85-goo-time-attitude.html. Granted my case was just bizarre and definitely out of the ordinary, but I didn't want to deal with another fried turbine pump....and since I never found an explanation for this craziness, I went back to old skool and the dual 255's, which IMO are basically indestructible. FWIW, I tossed an old beat to hell 255 back into that ^ and the pump never missed a beat. A new Deatschwerks pump (#2) only lasted a couple of weeks before starting to show the same symptoms, even though the amount of contamination was not even close to the first episode.

I'm not blaming the DW pump (and they are excellent people to deal with BTW), but rather the turbine design not being able to handle contamination like the 255 design. (Not that there should be contamination in the first place, but we all live in the real world...right?

For a more "normal" situation though, I would be perfectly comfortable in recommending the new 450.

 

[USAF 98 GSX]

Since this thread got a little deeper than I expected, and since I sort of brought it up, this might be worth mentioning; there is another reason I went with dual 255 pumps instead of a single high-capacity pump, that you won't often find mentioned.

Most (if not all) of the new generation of high capacity pumps are a turbine design, rather than the older 255 type of design. This allows them to run quieter with much higher capacity. So why does it matter?

The turbine pumps have tighter tolerances and much smaller internal clearances. Because of this, turbine pumps are more susceptible to deposit build up, which can severely limit the output or increase internal pressure and overload the motor. Since E85 is a somewhat "dirty" fuel, especially when coming from blender pumps, it's important to religiously maintain a very clean fuel system, and check the tank every now and then for any signs of build up on or around the pump sock and tank walls.

Dammit man why did you have to bring that up, . Especially since ill be mainly running E85 later on. So you say a 450 is worthy of my goals, 255s are somewhat more reliable regarding internal parts, but at the same time 255s weren't specifically designed for E85. I'll probably sit on the possibilities for about a week and ill make a decision when I have the money in hand.

 

[Calan]

Read my edit. As I said, I think under most all circumstances, the turbine pumps are just fine...as long as you pay extra attention to maintaining a properly clean fuel system and don't bring down some alien wrath like I apparently did. It's just something to keep in the back of your mind; it's just something to be aware of that you won't see mentioned very often.

 

[USAF 98 GSX]

Nice. A turbine pump still doesn't sound that convincing. Hopefully after a week of self debate Ill make a decision and go with it and if the first path fail then ill just swap out for the other configuration.

 

[Calan]

Personally, I'd drop a 450 in there and get on with it. If you get to a power level that it can't handle (especially with an extra volt or two driving it), you're going to be replacing trannies and drivetrain parts anyway, so the pump won't be your biggest concern.

And if you somehow manage to kill it with contamination, I'll finally have someone else on this planet to compare notes with.

 

[USAF 98 GSX]

You are correct. I can't believe how much I've learned just in the past two days about the fuel system. Definitely not nervous about taking on a full fuel system upgrade. Ill take your advice and my final decision is a 450 and if breaks you owe me, . Ill just go with the double pumper then. Thank you again to everyone

 

[Calan]

Good luck. Sounds like you have the right attitude, and I see good things in your DSM future.

Please keep this thread updated in regards to your fuel system experiences as things progress.

 

[NHerron]

Really should reconsider that AEM rail. They advertise 1/2" bore and the stock rail is 16mm. Which is bigger than 1/2" obviously. AN fittings are super easy to adapt to the stock rail provided you do it right, and won't leak to all hell like AEM does apparently (read the reviews). After buying the tap and a couple fittings you could send it off to be powder coated and still be under the price of an AEM rail.

 

[USAF 98 GSX]

So a stock fuel rail should technically be rated more than 1000 HP since its bigger than the AEM?

 

[Calan]

Really should reconsider that AEM rail. They advertise 1/2" bore and the stock rail is 16mm. Which is bigger than 1/2" obviously. AN fittings are super easy to adapt to the stock rail provided you do it right, and won't leak to all hell like AEM does apparently (read the reviews).

Agreed.

A stock rail should be just fine until you get well above your stated goals, and that bling money is better spent elsewhere IMO. And again, at that point you are going to be dealing with much more significant issues.

After buying the tap and a couple fittings you could send it off to be powder coated and still be under the price of an AEM rail.

http://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=20909&cat=1559&page=1

Clean, simple, cheap... and it just works.

 

[USAF 98 GSX]

Well then that's some money saved there. Awesome keep the savings coming. Lol.

 

[Calan]

Since I didn't mention it before, I'll toss my vote in for FIC2150's. FIC (and Jens in particular) are excellent folks to deal with, and I've had nothing but great results with all of their injectors that I've used. Not to mention, the 2150's have an excellent track record and work well with ECMLink. They aren't cheap, but that is one place that I wouldn't cut corners. Buy large, quality injectors once, and consider it an investment.

Not that the 2200's that Will mentioned aren't good also; I just don't have any personal experience with them, and there isn't nearly as much feedback on them as the 2150s from I've seen.

 

[NHerron]

Ohh no you wanna see clean I'll snap a couple pics of my rail. That 8an fitting looks like it was just BORN to be there. I ground off the OE mounting ears and machined the sealing surface of the rail with a razor to keep the fitting to rail mating surfaces parallel and used a sealing washer between. With some black braided lines, it just looks straight up beuidiful all secured together

 

[Calan]

I bet it does look good, but that gets away from that "simple" thing. And when you get drunk and crack the rail from over-torquing a bolt with a missing spacer, the next morning you just have to move the adapter over to the spare rail.

 

[NHerron]

Lol. Sounds like you're familiar with the adventure!

Get too tanked and one day we'll be like, awh SOB the damn spacer fell down again, time to get the RTV... hey wait a minute guys let's not even use em, probably don't even need them in the first place... we'll be like pioneers!

...*byebye 2150's*

/threadjack