IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[weapon_x]

The gains of an air-to-liquid intercooler on the street are slim to none. In most cases this type is used only for drag, marine, or space-limited situations. The liquid cooling it is the biggest problem. You can't just tap off of your existing cooling system because it operates at roughly 195 degrees F on a stock thermostat, and the ethyl glycol in coolant doesn't transfer heat well at all. This means that water is your only option, but this presents another problem. If a reservoir is placed under the hood it will heat the water thus losing some of it's cooling properties. Also, in order to pump the water you will need to run a 12V pump comstantly to move the water, and unless you drop some dimes on an expensive pump you will be replacing it often because most are not designed for that type of use. The size of reservoir is also important so that you don't run out of water and have a catastrophic, high-boost related failure. The gains from an air-to-liquid are huge (as in fourteenfold) over an air-to-air, but I don't think it is something that can be used constantly on a daily driver.

 

[TwoLiterV8Eater]

A friend of mine has a pretty nice setup in his civic. A typical air/air intercooler up front, and then an air/water right before the throttle body. its a pretty small air/water intercooler, but he has fuel cell in the back that he fills with icewater at the track. On the street he just leaves it dry. He also has another piece of upper IC pipe that he can replace the air/water cooler with. He said that it helps spool time slightly on the street, but not that much so he leaves the IC in there for the most part.

He has noticed quite a drop in ET and MPH when not using the icewater at the track. He seems to run on average 12.4@118 with the icewater, and even at the same boost level it was around 12.7@114 without the ice, which is about where he is at lower boost.

I have thought about doing someithing like this on my car, but my FMIC is considerably larger than his so I dont think it will make as much of an improvement on my car.

 

[2gdsm_nc]

there is a pretty cheap pump that flows alot of water that is made to run all the time. an aeration pump for fish tanks. just find one large enough. look at the fishing section in a boat store they have the big ones that flow up to 500 gph on 12v i would place links to some but they wont last in here no links allowed and all. ive found some for around 13$ and rv supply stores have them also for around 20

 

[QuickerDSM]

Originally posted by weapon_x
The gains of an air-to-liquid intercooler on the street are slim to none. In most cases this type is used only for drag, marine, or space-limited situations. The liquid cooling it is the biggest problem. You can't just tap off of your existing cooling system because it operates at roughly 195 degrees F on a stock thermostat, and the ethyl glycol in coolant doesn't transfer heat well at all. This means that water is your only option, but this presents another problem. If a reservoir is placed under the hood it will heat the water thus losing some of it's cooling properties. Also, in order to pump the water you will need to run a 12V pump comstantly to move the water, and unless you drop some dimes on an expensive pump you will be replacing it often because most are not designed for that type of use. The size of reservoir is also important so that you don't run out of water and have a catastrophic, high-boost related failure. The gains from an air-to-liquid are huge (as in fourteenfold) over an air-to-air, but I don't think it is something that can be used constantly on a daily driver.

Couple things;

First, a liquid/air intercooling system has NOTHING to do with the cooling system of your engine. It is completely seperate and isolated.

Second, a properly designed air/liquid intercooling system is only slightly less efficient under normal street conditions than a air/air unit. Plus, the liquid/air unit has the ability to add ice to the cooling medium making it more efficient than any air/air core on the market.

Third, I don't know of ANY water pump that is not designed to work under constant running conditions. Fish pumps, bilge pumps, electric water pumps, ALL work non-stop for thousands of hours of use. It doesn't even need to flow that much.

Fourth, where would the water go for the resovoir to run dry? It is completely sealed and is being recirculated. It will never run dry unless it developes a leak somewhere.

I don't know where you got your information about liquid/air cores, but you were highly mis-informed. Hope I cleard up any mis-conceptions about them.

Mike

 

[weapon_x]

Originally posted by QuickerDSM




I don't know where you got your information about liquid/air cores, but you were highly mis-informed. Hope I cleard up any mis-conceptions about them.

Mike

The book "Maximum Boost", written by Corky Bell (a noted builder of all things turbo), brings up some good points against air-to-liquid on the street. I'm not flat out knocking this set up, it has the ability to make power. I just believe that unless it is set up simply and efficiently it won't be much of a sweet deal. I know the cooling system is seperate from the intercooling system, it just seems as though some where talking in the direction of using that as water supply. Sorry if I misunderstood. My concern of the loss of fluid comes from evaporation, but under more thought I don't believe that hot air leaving the compressor housing would be hot enough to turn all the liquid to vapor. As for the pump, fish tank pumps are 110v and are DESIGNED for constant use. Bilge pumps and aftermarket electric water pumps are ideal, but cost $$$ and are sometimes bulky. Water will always transfer heat better than air over aluminium, ice would be even better. If you really want to make power, a "one shot" intercooler added to an existing air-to-air setup would be simpler and net better short term results. An aluminum box sealed over the UIC filled with ice, ice water, or, more preferably, dry ice should make from some pretty impressive gains, although they may be short lived depending on ambient air, underhood temps etc. Regardless, I'm not slamming the idea, I just don't prefer it. Happy engineering.

 

[QuickerDSM]

Originally posted by weapon_x

The book "Maximum Boost", written by Corky Bell (a noted builder of all things turbo), brings up some good points against air-to-liquid on the street.

Ah, the bible of all turbo books. Although he brings good merit with most topics, I believe some of his information is a little dated and others a bit biased, but this is just my oppinion. For the most part, the book brings good reading.

Originally posted by weapon_x

I'm not flat out knocking this set up, it has the ability to make power.

Originally posted by weapon_x
The gains of an air-to-liquid intercooler on the street are slim to none.

Sounds to me like you are saying two different things here? I think your mis-conception (as well as Mr. Bells) is that the liquid/air unit has no merit on a street car. This, in my opinion, is incorrect. I've seen these work on the street just fine with Vorech blown LT1's producing in excess of 650rwhp. I've also seen back to back comparisons between front mounts, and liquid/air intercoolers without ice. Granted, the air/air will be more efficient on a day-to-day basis, but it is a much smaller margin than most people think. As with anything, it's difficult to compare one to the other directly due to design and engineering aspects of each. I just think that Mr. Bell threw a bad twist on the subject of liquid/air intercoolers and because of this, people tend to automatically believe it.

Mike

 

[weapon_x]

If you read the quotes that you have taken from my earlier posts you will see that I am not saying two different things. Yes, an air-to-liquid set up has the ability to make more power than air-to-air, 14X as much to be precise. This is because water will always transfer heat better than air, especially over a substance like aluminum. I just don't see a noticeable gain on a STREET set up. With every day driving and stop light blasts I can just see the performance margin slipping away to nothing. I believe that heat soak would also be a problem because you have no way to keep the water cool enough to attain the same power gain consistently. Now, pressurizing the system may help, but I don't know how much. Now on the STRIP with a controled environment air-to-liquid would prove superior. There are several pro cars that prove this point. Almost all cars, including a blown LT1, that use air-to-liquid do it because of space constraints, blower design, or just to not have a visible FMIC to attain a "sleeper" look. Any intercooler is better than no intercooler. Plus, there are supercharger systems out there without IC's that can still put down that much power on an LT1. I'm just trying to make a point, but since I have never built such a system a may not be of much help. My brain might just be running amock. Yeah, I feel a headache comin' on.

 

[ProStreetOnline]

One of our customers has a air to water intercooler. Here's a pic:

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We'll have dyno numbers/timeslips soon.

 

[QuickerDSM]

Originally posted by weapon_x
Almost all cars, including a blown LT1, that use air-to-liquid do it because of space constraints, blower design, or just to not have a visible FMIC to attain a "sleeper" look. Any intercooler is better than no intercooler. Plus, there are supercharger systems out there without IC's that can still put down that much power on an LT1. I'm just trying to make a point, but since I have never built such a system a may not be of much help.

In the past, they were used mostly for space restraints, but recently they have been used more widely for daily driven applications, with great succes I might add. I was trying to make the point that the water pumps can, and do, live on the street on daily driven cars. It's really not much of a concern unless you tune for the ragged edge on the street. I know I don't, just for the possibility of getting some bad gas.

Originally posted by weapon_x
I believe that heat soak would also be a problem because you have no way to keep the water cool enough to attain the same power gain consistently. Now, pressurizing the system may help, but I don't know how much.

Actually there is a way to control heat soak, it's called a heat exchanger. It's basically a small radiator for the circulating water that is mounted up front somewhere. An auto tranny cooler is typically used for this and does a fine job of keeping things cool. You must remember that the water is going to be cooled by the intake air running through the core when the turbo is off boost. So in a sense, the water is being cooled twice in non-boost cruise mode (at least 50% of the time on the street).

Well, I think we've beat this to death and at least we can agree to dis-agree.

Mike

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Its funny this comes up. Im actually going to be marketing a A/W IC kit. I like this idea because its stealth. You can quite easily make a a/w kit that looks stock and handles 500 hp. That benefit alone is worth it to many people

Sean

 

[talonted_one]

if you want stealth do what i do and paint your FMIC black.

as far as making 500 hp with the aid of an air:water IC i would like to see how long the the benefits of the setup will last on a street car

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

I was refering to crank HP. Half of this site has close to 500 crank hp =) Its no less streetable then air to air in any way. 80% of intercooled V8's daily driving and making 500WHP on pump gas are doing it on air to water. Remember any time you are off of boost the intercooler also cools down the air significantly. Its works fine.

 

[weapon_x]

Heat soak usually happens when a car sets still if I recall. That nifty heat exchanger can't do anything in no air is going over it. Same problem with FMIC's on a hot day, or especially on an automatic turbo car that tries to build boost on the line. You've just got hot turbo air going through a tube. In an air-to-liquid case it's hot air heating up water until the car is moving again. A fan could be employed, but we are starting to get away from the "keeping it simple" aspect. I am also tired of typing on this topic. I'm out.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

No, heat soak does not occur while sitting still with air to water. Thats the time when your getting the best cooling, because the air going through the intercooler is ambient temp and moving fast. So all the water is being cooled down by using the IC as a heat exchanger.

 

[QuickerDSM]

Yes, what he said (above), and what I've said before in an earlier post. A heat exchanger may not be working sitting at a stop light, but the air moving through the core on it's way to the throtlle body is!!!! It's not under load, so it's not hot air. It's ambient air moving through the air/liquid core COOLING the water. It's a give/take relationship in essence. When under load/boost, the core removes heat from the charged air. When NOT under load/boost, the air cools the water.

Mike

 

[Race94]

How well does an air to water IC perform?
Is it better than a front mount?
Around how much HP would it handle?


Thanks

 

[ChicagoGSX]

Air to Waters are good for a few passes down the 1/4 mile, but by then the water inside is hot and no longer cools the air well. For the street a good FMIC will be much better.

 

[candela]

Air to Waters are good for a few passes down the 1/4 mile, but by then the water inside is hot and no longer cools the air well. For the street a good FMIC will be much better.

Not true at all... it used to be that way when people didn't really know how to size cooler with cores, but now its much different and in a lot of cases a water cooler will prove much more efficient (they are usually a little more expensive, harder to install and disastrous when something goes wrong) over a air/air FMIC or and mounts intercooler for that matter. You may be thinking of the supercooler type water coolers with ice boxes and stuff. Those are basically meant for one pass down the strip, but can be over 100% efficient at the same time. All depends on what the car is for, but a nicely settup water/air are and can be just as good if not better.

How well does an air to water IC perform?

This is like asking how fast can a DSM go with 5k to spend on it... All depends on a lot of things. I have seen really nicely settup units doing 400+ on daily driven cars in AZ. I have seen smaller units doing 300whp on hondas in AZ daily driven....there are many varieties. If you want mroe info feel free to PM me.


Austin

 

[ChicagoGSX]

What is used to cool the ones you are talking about Candela? I thought that they all just used water and sometimes ice is added to make them extra cold, but once the water heats up they need to be refilled. Do they circulate coolant through?

 

[BoostinAWD]

Water/Air are really only good for competition. Where you can constantly be cooling the water back down.

If you are running Water/Air on the street, its only gonna heat up more and more. Then you will be defeating your whole purpose of cooling the intake charge. Unless you like packing alot of dry ice along with you.

You could also try using a radiator to cool the water, but whats the point. You will also be adding alot of weight to your car. 7 pounds or so to the gallon.

Air/Air fmic hands down for the street.
Keep the Water/Air to the tracks.

 

[fastalon]

u guys are so wrong......air to waters work awesome on the street...i got one...and i know..

 

[Guerillah]

I have a air 2 water setup and in the 110 degree AZ weather the water temp gets to around 110 degree's. I have a front mount heat exchanger, pump, and 2 core spearco intercooler. During nights when it was cold I didnt notice the water heat up one bit and the system will own any air 2 air system at the track. Colder climates this thing would not heat soak at all. www.wraithmr2.com/air2water.htm go to bottom for pics

 

[Defiant]

Is it better to WI at the throttle body, or would there be a payoff in getting the water to the hot air between the blower and the IC?

Is it worth the bother to waterspray the outside of an air-to-air IC?

 

[ChicagoGSX]

It would help. Just look at the Evo it has a water mister stock. I think CO2 or N2O would be better to cool an IC though.

 

[MNGSX]

I'm not going to be one to dismiss a air/water on the street but on a drag track it shines.

If you can get enough of a heat exchanger up front your set.

I'm not sure how much IC I will need. I might go air water because of short piping. You do have to hang and plumb more stuff total but the actual airpath can be much shorter.

I might do some kind of on demand refrigeration on top of or in place of the heat exhanger. It would be simple. Thermistor, thermocouple or RTD probe in the water feed line before the pump. I'd probably use a pressure actuated switch too so it turns on when on boost and then checks the water temp.

This would connect to a "nawz" solenoid with one end connected to a pin holw drilled distribution rail in the water tank and the other leading to a CO2 tank. I'll have to look over the IC sprayer solenoids and see what they are using.

Think aquarium aereator effect. The tank will need a pressure release/ overflow. You could also fog your heat exchanger instead but the direct contact with the co2 ought to be way more efficient and I can use much less to get the same effect. With the temp sensor in place it would turn on and off as needed automatically keeping things from getting too cold. I'd still use antifreeze as this would prevent the area around the drilled rail from flash freezing. Smart thinking would also be to summerse the rear of the CO2 tank in the coolant so it also cools things and you are'nt just throwing that frost on the bottle away.