IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[candela]

OMFG

 

[insane147]

no problem, already wanted one so i did some research a while ago. im going to use a hond dx radiator, shurflo pump, active extruded aluminum i/c core with water jacket. ive relocated my battery so i can go from my j pipe all the way back to the throttle body, should be 18' long by 10" or so wide and 3-4"deep with a total of about 8" of intercooler piping. also getting a 3 gallon fuel cell from summit as a resivor.

 

[autronicDSM]

hope you can find 100% efficient radiator to cool water. i know somebody who did air-water IC on mr2 and temps after IC are about the same what i was getting on big16g at 17psi and SMIC. if you ask me it's not worth the effort. you could just get thicker FMIC and a marine (?)fan Spearco mentions in their book to push air through the core.

if you decide do do it anyways please post your findings! i'm very curious to the end result on a DSM as i was thinking about it myself before i realized it wasn't so great for street.

 

[Enigma_Man]

Wow, Insane147, thanks for all the info
Especially that pic with the fatty dude on the cooler, hehe.

I definitely think this is the way I want to go with my car.
I have very little money, so most of my upgrades are going to be DIY.

I don't plan on doing much drag racing (can't afford it too often), this'll be mostly for day-to-day usage, so I'm looking for more of a continuous use system that doesn't require ice or much maintenance (though I'll have an accessable reservoir where ice can go for those special runs).

My car's gonna be such a homemade beast . DIY Exhaust, Intercooler, fuel control, BOV control, and Speed-Density system. Woohoo, I can't wait.

-Jesse

 

[insane147]

you dont need a 100 percent efiicent radiator....they obviously did not read the enitre tech post. it only makes heat under boost. you dont drive under boost nearly as much as you cruise or are off boost. air is cooling the water system when you move or have the fan on. then when off throttle the air in the intake also reverse cools the water moving through the intercooler. also water can absorb 4 times the amount of heat air can to move up just one degree. im sorry, i live in a city, i dont go 150 mph down every road for ten minutes. i think the time between the occasional stop light race to my destination will be more than sufficent to keep it cool.

 

[4pistons]

Since water can absorb more than 4 times the heat than air, 4 times less surface area is required for the same amount of coolong. Jacketing a DSM sidemount air/air IC will work if you use it with the standard configuration, pressurized air inside it and water surrounding the core, but I think you'd see better results by reversing it.

Run the water INSIDE the IC and pass the pressurize air through the core. There is a lot more surface area contacting the pressurized air to remove heat that way. Vortecs Aftercoolers are made this way for their superchargers. It wouldn't be any more difficult to fab but you have to think a little differently.

Rick - '91 GSX - Starion FMIC now, Air/H2O soon!!

 

[autronicDSM]

i'm not trying to prove aybody right or wrong but...because water absorbs so much more heat, it's so much harder to cool water as close to ambient as possible. so what you don't drive under boost all the time, after boosting most likely you will warm the air going through the system. sure it's only part throttle but isn't that against the idea of intercooler?

then there's a problem of radiator for water-air IC, it has to be as big as possible to cool water down as close to ambient temp. close because it's not 100% eficient, or if it's big enough you won't fit it anywhere. only logical place for it is in front of radiator which is same as installing FMIC because heat will transfer to air before it gets to other radiator and usually a lot of people who try to avoid getting FMIC do it because of flow obstruction to radiator. if you try to mount radiator for IC anywhere else it won't flow enough air to it or you will spend too much time making shrouds to get little more air flow.

somebody please explain where's advantage of water-air setup on a street car because i don't see it other than it sounds like a good idea until you spend too much money and end up with something that's maybe good as FMIC but costs lot more and weights too.

 

[insane147]

it doesnt need a huge radiator. most use the ac condensor or a small tranny cooler. if you can find a honda dx radiator, its half the size of our dsm one and holds a good amount of water. you dont need an intercooler at part throttle unless your climbing a mountain, if your not making boost, your not making heat. and air to air ICs do the same thing, heat soak charge air under part throttle also, but they dont cool down at a stop light like a water IC because they have no cooling medium going through them, thats one benefit. then water absorbs more heat for a given rise of temp, thats two benefits. they have shorter intake piping, thats three. they can be made just as cheap or cheaper, four. and when you want you can add ice for the track..thats five. they have been used on production street cars also, such as the toyota celica alltrac- turbo AWD .

 

[autronicDSM]

fine, do it and post your logs. i did compare my logs with somebody else who has water-air on their car and it wasn't better than stock IC on our cars. and i do have air temp sensor right in front of TB so it's very accurate. when you're at a stop light little fan won't cool that much, being cheap ass as most dsmers are they will probably use something off honda or a gokart. it will cool sure but not a lot imo. good point about production cars, key phrase "have been", if water-air were so good for street every car manufacturer would use them especially when you need something small like honda radiator to cool water OR companies like greddy or hks would make them for aftermarket and everybody who mods their car would use them. they don't...you know why? because they're not that good for street

can you post any places that sell cheap water-air intercoolers?

 

[smokehouse_83]

wouldnt running air on the outside of the core mess up the flow of air since there is no room at all ( on a stock side mount core) I have an idea for a radiator thats small and you could put in your side mount location a radiator off of a atv like a 250r or banshee or something and thats cheep here is what I would think it would cost to make an air-water intcooler cheap

1. Stock sidemount with new endtanks facing the right direction and tanks welded on the sides. 50-100
2. Atv radiator 20-50
3. 2-3 gallon fuel cell for resivor off ebay 20-50
4. small fan for radiator 20-50
5. All the piping for the water and from the turbo to the throttle body with bov flange welded on somewhere. 50-100

So at most the kit would cost 300 to 350 dollars to build find my a front mount core for that.

Drew

 

[autronicDSM]

radiator off a ATV will not work. go read some books about intercooling...

 

[blackspyderGST]

Thanks for all the input guys I'm still undecided though. The bigest problem for me is the space issue

 

[insane147]

people like different things, i prefer water, you prefer air. water is proven to have much better results. manufacturs do not use them MUCH now because of complexity and costs....ever buy a smic for a dsm?? they are outrageous just like a stock turbo, the prices are pumped up for dealers..i have logged my post smic temps and they were over 275 degrees on a 65 - 70 degree day , 1st gear ROLL to a 115mph shut off, it spiked fast and never fell, even after i let off and drove for about 5 minutes, the damn smic was so heatsoaked. now water does not spike any where near as fast, and takes much longer to get hot, but also takes longer to cool down, but thats after ive made my point to whomever i just raced, so let it cool down, i would have to with a smic and an air to air also.

btw prices for my set up have been:
intercooler:400
pump:80
honda radiator new:79
i/c pipes: so easy ive made them myself
miscellenous hoses , fittings and bungs....maybe 40
water....free
pepboys hayden electric high flow fan...100

i didnt want to go "cheapie dsmer" on the radiator and fan, sorry, im tryin to COOL things off as much as possible, so i spent the money on real cooling products, not ac condensers and such..

 

[Bohrn]

Just figured I'd throw this in...

Lotus did this on their Esprit with a 2.0L turbo 16v(sound familiar?) and had mixed results. They even had 2 different hp ratings for it. One for optimal conditions and one for when it got hot. It was like 20hp different more or less.

dont let anyone discourage you, have at it Sounds like fun,and if you can make it work, GREAT! People will probably buy it off ya if it even sorta works

 

[insane147]

ive seen more than a few places try to sell them but come up short....it doesnt discourage me in the least. my car is not a daily driver. hardly even sees sunshine.......ive driven her 6000 miles in 2 years.

 

[insane147]

here is a spearco page that has two diffrent water temps cooling the intercooler, the air temp in and air temp out. even with 110 degree water, its still nearly 100 degrees cooler than my smic. 110 degree water is HOT, my car runs at 115-130 on any given day (no thermostat and both fans always on, and autometer gauge at top of neck), the engine is making CONSTANT heat and keeps this cool i feel i will have no problems what so ever.

http://www.racetep.com/atoliq.html

 

[4pistons]

If you are going to cruise the streets, commute to work or school and want a quick ride without much fuss or maintenance, an Air/Air setup would probably be the best all around. It has proven to be a very successful setup.

If you like to hit the dragstrip or the autocross on the weekend and do some late night street racing or cruise on nice nights then a Water/Air setup CAN be better.

An A/A setup is very low maintenance since you bolt it on once and you're done. But like everything else it is a compromise. How hot do you think the boost air is on a 90 degree day at the track? I'll gaurantee it isn't lower than 100 under the best conditions. And after a few laps (dragstrip or autocross) it's gaining heat fast. And the only way you can cool it any further is to do the maintenance you'd be doing on a W/A setup anyway.

With a W/A setup you could run 60 degree air on a 90 degree day, all day, as long as you keep it iced up. The same for a cruise night. For all around commuting you'd get to a point where getting out and icing it wouldn't be practical and youd be running about the same air temps as A/A just by cooling the water with the radiator. At this point there wouldn't be any advantage, you'd probably lose a little to the A/A.

So an A/A setup - Simply reliable, successful, no fuss, but you have only one level of performance.

A W/A setup - More complex, successful for intended purpose, needs attention, but will outperform A/A when needed.

Rick - '91 GSX

 

[fastalon]

hey man .get an air to water...trust me it works great.....and on daily driving..

 

[Culetto]

why not run your normal side mount or front mount and add a barrel type inline with your upper intercooler pipe, then you dont have to fill it for daily driving and can add some ice for the track days? i just thought of this so i havent tried it but if convinience is of major concern the added weight wouldnt be much till you filled it with ice

 

[Optiks]

im not sure i fully understand the layout is this correct?

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[90tsiguy]

Hey guys- been doing some research, want some educated opinions. I'm leaning towards the air to water intercooler but want people's experiences/opinions on the subject. The car in question has 8.1 Wiseco's, Cryoe'd, Fluxed, Shotpeened "big" rods, stage 2 headwork, ARP hardware throughout, fully balanced/blueprinted, Line honed, you name it. My question is, should I jump on the ticket now and go with the Air/Liquid cooler? How much more effective is this for the track (primary purpose of the car) and wondering what opinions people have of them, since so many users have Front mounts- Thanks
-Brandon

 

[larryd]

who actually makes a air/water intercooler for the DSM? I wasnt aware that anybody did??

 

[90tsiguy]

Larry-

Spearco makes intercooler cores, so I'm sure that shouldn't be a problem. Cores aren't car specific, so I don't see any difficulty in fitting something under the hood

 

[candela]

If the cars primary use is the track an air/water intercooler can be much more sufficinet/efficient than any air/air

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=22457&highlight=air/water+intercooler:thumb:

 

[rdrkt]

For a track only car it makes fantastic sense. When you pack it full of ice water you can get the charge temp well below ambient. The piping is also substantially shorter so there is less pressure drop. The only issue is where to put the reservoir and the added weight that comes with it.