IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[rubbersidedown]

from the way he's built his engine it sounds to me that the advantages of the air/water cooler will far outway the disadvantage of the added weight. just my opinion though.

 

[autronicDSM]

built for track as in drag or road racing? if it's drag racing then air/water is your top choice, otherwise air/air is the best bet

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by autronicDSM
built for track as in drag or road racing? if it's drag racing then air/water is your top choice, otherwise air/air is the best bet

Originally posted by 90tsiguy
How much more effective is this for the track (primary purpose of the car)

Hey try actually reading before you respond with that excellent tech

 

[90tsiguy]

Just wanted to thank those of you for your replies. The main interest is the lower intake temps, and I'm making the attempt to keep the thing as sleeper as possible. The car's going into the shop next week for paint, and will retain stock paint/ground effects. I have to get the cage installed yet, but things are coming together. Although I like the way front mounts look, it'll be nice to catch the unsuspecting guys at the track when they see I don't have a front mount. So anyways, just wanted to thank everyone for their input.
lata-
Brandon

 

[2-0turbo]

I am making my own air/water setup. My plan on building up my car is open-tracking. Probably not the best option, but quite workable. I didn't want to put a big FMIC up front and run into the overheating issues.

I am still working on my system now. I am using a stock SMIC with the directions reversed. Water now flows where the charge air used to and charge air flows where ambient cooling air used to. It is a pretty dense core and you have the tremendous heat capacity of water on your side.

My reservoir is in the trunk. I haven't totally decided on volume, but it will have the capacity for approximately 4-5 gallons, so I can pack it with ice if desired. The lines run inside the car, up to the core. I exchange heat with the atmosphere with two auto-tranny coolers (total size 12X12X 1.5" is the stock SMIC location and then pump it back to the reservoir.

I have seen data on much smaller cores on a 2.3l Ford achieve 70% efficiency. I am hoping for mid 80's (maybe 90%?) under normal conditions and possibly as high as 150% when doing strictly track only with water/ethanol/dry-ice. I'll keep everyone informed.

Marshall, if you are reading this, I remember you mentioned you were doing something similar. I was going to buy a Spearco core and the more I looked at it, the more sense it made to use the stock SMIC converted over. Later....

 

[pimpngear]

O.K..this is my first post so bear with me. First things..thanks to insane147 for the valuable lesson. If there is anything i would love to do to my engine, other than MAJOR fuel and turbo upgrades, is i would love to cool that thing down dramaticly. I'v been batteling myself for a few months now on witch way to go. My decesion for my daily driver is Air/water.

Water systems are definetly proven to cool extremly better than air. Any of you gus owned an old bug before? I feel...and this is my un-educated opinion, that the slight gain in weight and extra drain on the charging system is well worth sacraficing for the performance gains of an A/W system. Yes...runability problems will occure..as with any new install, but all these problems will be independant form the rest of the motor(atleast in my mental desighn) and will do more good than harm. Most honda boys run there turbo systems with no cooling capabilities and don't seem to have to many problems with too much internal engine heat.
Lets me tell you what I envision.
Parts: large a/t cooler (probably off a disel truck)
Stand-a-lone cooling system (website never works when needed) Consists of 3 to 6lb pump and some tubing, same size as a 2g oil cooler.
Very expensive SPEARCO A/W intercooler
Very expensive 50shot fogger system
A ton of piping
And somebody who know's what there doing(obviously not me)
Here is were it all started.. http://homepages.tig.com.au/~robs/Intercooler1.htm
unlike his set-up I plan on only one radiator and it's location will be were the stock intercooler sit's now. Other mods will be a battery relocation, and to re-angle the "intake elbow" to face downward. Befor I loose sight...the cost for the intercooler can be avoided if anybody can cut some metal: http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/vanagon/TDI/intercooler_system.pdf
and spearco is so nice to supply the demensions: http://www.turboneticsinc.com/spearco/airliq00.htm
and since a fogger system can get a frountmont damn close to 100%
effecancy, wouldn't it be nice to have on race day in your A/W?
From what i keep seeing a/w run abou 40-50 deg. above ambien under boost..and probably 20 deg. over ambient not under load.
The over goal to me os to get the most effective cooling system and maintane a complete stock apperance. Wheels are the only exterior upgrade to ever get on this car..an A/W will appeal to anybody who is going for the sleeper approach, and it might turn out to cost around the same as a frountmount, not to mention you probably wont get your car stolen as quickly. Oh..yeah. You also gain a little more tunabillity and you can experament with different cooling mixtures.
If I went about this all wrong...pleasae let me know. You wouldn't want me to make the same mistake again.

 

[pimpngear]

I don't know if any of you guys caught this tread, but insane147 gave a pretty acurate breakdown.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22457

 

[fastalon]

i would say go with the air to water.but that is my personal opinion ...becuase i know several ppl taht run air to waters on daily driven cars and they said it wors great.... better thne when he had the front mount...and the added wieght is that much...u can take ou tthe stock side mount and put a 2 or 3 gallon reservor in there that is what my friend did...and he also uses a spearco air to water.....and yes he has like no piping ..but like everyone said its everyones personal opinion on what u want ot use..i personaly will go with an air to water on my daily driver...but thats me....

 

[DeezNutsForYou]

I was just wondering if anyone has any person use with an atw intercooler. I have seen quite a few on ebay but they go for a sh*t load. Is it really worth it, and what all do you need to make them work. And how hard would it be to make your own, doesn't seem too hard. It apears to me to be a skinny inercooler iside a tube with water circulating around it. How the hell can they charge 6 to 8 hundred dollars for that.

thanks for the info

 

[KGB Pilot125]

saw a pic of one on a red 2g it looked like a full 1320 build. used a spearco unit. dont have a link sorry.

engine bay is kinda crowded for one I think, I have a water to air on my sy and ty takes a lot of room and adds some lbs. but after recieving my spearco FMIC guess it isnt to many more pounds.

 

[SOURCE1064]

Has anyone used one of these on their street driven DSM? What noticeable difference have you seen and what are the benefits from a air to liquid intercooler? What size one did you get and where from? The two other GSX's at the shop I take my car to are running medium sized ones in addition to their front mounts but I don't think they are going to use their cars as daily drivers.

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[25psi]

I don't think you really need and air-water IC if you already have a nice air-air FMIC. Air-water are pretty much for the strip only, from what I've heard they heat soak VERY easily. BTW in the engine pics why did he mount it near his engine, that's like te worst place for an intercooler especially without a hood scoop.

 

[SOURCE1064]

That's the only place the air to liquid Spearco unit could fit. He's also running a Spearco 2-216 race intercooler. I've seen quite a few DSM's that use them install them in that area. I am just trying to cool my car as much as possible. So far I have my greddy large fmic, aquamist water injection, and the NX nter cooler chiller.

 

[larryd]

If you wanna waste more $$ get rid of the Greddy Large FMIC for a Spearco core

 

[greyforestgst]

Originally posted by 25psi
BTW in the engine pics why did he mount it near his engine, that's like te worst place for an intercooler especially without a hood scoop.

do you know how a water/air works?

the only thing that needs to catch air is the heat exchanger for the liquid, which is out of view.

thats a pretty badass setup if you ask me. yeah, theyre suited mainly for the track, but they imo fit a lot better. instead of running your entire intake past the front bumper you can just route two little radiator hoses.

 

[RS entities]

does anyone have a link for somewhere that sells those, any ideas on price??
thanks

 

[25psi]

Originally posted by greyforestgst


do you know how a water/air works?

the only thing that needs to catch air is the heat exchanger for the liquid, which is out of view.

thats a pretty badass setup if you ask me. yeah, theyre suited mainly for the track, but they imo fit a lot better. instead of running your entire intake past the front bumper you can just route two little radiator hoses.

Oh ok I didn't know there was a heat exganger I thought it worked like an air/air IC

 

[RabidDonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by greyforestgst
yeah, theyre suited mainly for the track

if thats the case then why did GM put a AIR->Water IC on the Syclone/Typhoon? they were by no means built as drag trucks...

the only reason why most people consider them strip only is. when people see them on a drag car theres no external heat exchanger and the team that races it fills the reservoir with fresh ICE before every pass.

hook up the proper equipment and a air-water IC and depending on what coolant you use for heat exchange. water can absorb 4X the amount of heat air will so you only need 1/4 if IC to get the job done.

and the spot that picture has it is the BEST spot it allows for the least amount of Intercooler tubing. although i would have had the outlet worked so there wasn't that 90' bend coupler.

i'm working on building an Air-Water for my DSM in the next few weeks.

p.s. what kind of manifold is that person running? i've never seen that cast manifold before..

 

[SOURCE1064]

I believe it's the one extreme motorsports sells, I'll ask him next time I drop by the shop.

 

[2-0turbo]

Originally posted by RabidDonkeyBoy
hook up the proper equipment and a air-water IC and depending on what coolant you use for heat exchange. water can absorb 4X the amount of heat air will so you only need 1/4 if IC to get the job done.

I too, will build one someday. I like to do track days and everyone who puts a FMIC on a track car eventually overheats. So, I want to do the air/water and put the heat exchanger out of the way or use a thin radiator, much like the AC condenser.

Remember, you are correct that Cp of water is 4X of air. But, realizing mass transfer, your overall heat transfer rate is even better than 4X. More on the order of 12-15 because water is so dense and has such a tremendous capacity for absorbing heat.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

BUT once you stop moving or turn the car off you will heat soak all the water in the system. I know because I have a syclone and a typhoon. the syclone has a water temp gauge for the IC system, when I am driving around IC temps are about 40-50 degrees when i get into boost for 1/4 mile or more they climb to about 90-100 then cool right back down when I get out of it. (these are on days that the outside temp is like 40 at the most.) but when I park and come back a little while later like 30 min or so the ic temps are about 130 or so due to the water absorbing the heat off the turbo and motor. the turbo in a sy/ty is right under the ic, I realize a dsm is different. for tracks days you should be fine with a air/water setup and you can always add another water container to hold ice water or something.

 

[JayHass]

#1 The SyTy uses air/water because of packaging reasons. Plain and simple. Same reason Vortech puts an Air/water IC with most of their supercharger kits.

#2 In engineering there is a principle called TANSTAAFL. What's it stand for? There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. In other words, you are not getting something for nothing. Water may absorb more heat than air, but that heat ultimately has to be transfered from the water to air via another water/air heat exchanger. Because of this Air/Water IC's that use ambient air to cool the water are less efficient than a good front mount.

The appealing part of the Air/Water is you can put an ice water resevoir with a pump and actually chill the intake charge below ambient temps. Racers like it because you can tune to a consisten intake charge temp and not be as dependant on the weather.

 

[Quiz]

Insane147,

Any updates. Have you installed and been able to log intake temp's with the A/W?

 

[TheObiJuan]

gmc syclones and typhoons use a garret w/a intercooler.
it is a pain in the ass.
modified, the entire system has gone 10's wich is fast for those little trucks.

many in the syty crowd go to a2a because of the simplicity and weight loss.
take into cosideration the weight of the water, the pump, the cche (heat exchanger), the water lines, & the intercooler.

if you want to learn more about these and real life experiences go to syty.net and search.

 

[jdk906s]

Wouldn't water injection (one port at the IC and one just before the throttle body) be just as useful as the whole water/air IC? It's a lot cheaper and well proven route.