I want Suspension that would kill a BMW

[Dallas J]

My $0.02, if you want to keep your ride somewhat quiet and perfectly streetable then get the pro-kit on some koni yellows and a set of Sway bars (Not sure whats available anymore since RM bars arent around now). Itll feel like a new car, and be pretty good with the handling.

If you want to get more serious then pair the koni's with either the koni or GC perches and run 600/300, 700/350, or 900/450. Ive seen all those combinations work really well, and currently using the 700/350 set up with F/R RM bars.

Then start working on more camber up front, urethane or spherical bushings, and definately better rubber.

Just remember, the stiffer you go the more road noise youll have to deal with.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

I did not go off in the slightest most minuscule way even for half a second. I went on your comment of the "serious" racers on here comment. I paid good money for a great name that is synonymous for quality and results where it counts. The opinion of a few people automatically over rides any other opinion or fact on this site thats all. no one went off about anything I just forgot how bad my stuff sucks especially when adjusted correctly. Then I forgot that kyb is NO 1 in the world because the product they sell does not impress dsm owners. I am going to go light my agx's on fire now because they are no good, Thanks for the heads up on that. I guess thats also why I blast Stangs and vetts and g35's and twin turbo 350z and rb26 240 sx on our local twisty ass hill_billy back roads.

I still didn't say that the KYB AGX set up was trash. I actually said that I had them on my 1g and loved them..... now calm down with your "I should go set my AGXs' on fire..." blah blah blah -

I still say, really think about what you want and your end budget. Do lots of reading, and then make a decision. Will a shock/spring combo get the job done for you? Do you need adjustable ride height or the extra stiffness the coilovers may give? Will you have to sacrifice other suspension parts to go with a higher end coilover set-up (bushings, sway bars, brakes, tires?)

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Yeah, I'm going to go with the do lots of research comment too. I ran KYB AGX on my 1g with a set of Eibach pro kit springs first and then with a set of GC 450/375 springs. With the pro kit the ride was nice and it cornered fairly well but with more body roll than I liked. With the GC's the AGX's couldn't keep up with the stiffer springs and the ride was very rough but it handled very well.

After several readings DG's Autocross site linked above I opted to go with a set of Koni Sport (yellow) shocks and another set of GC's with softer springs on my Galant build. I actually just got them in the mail tonight from another site member. I found a killer deal used and will throw them on tomorrow morning. I'll give you my opinion of ride quality after that vs the 1g setup I had. I don't think anything else was left in classifieds for 2g Koni's but be patient and you can find a great deal. I got my GC's for my 1g for under $100 shipped off eBay just because I was willing to wait for a deal.

Hahha defintely. If you do some serious research and actually go out to the tracks youll find that the majority of racers prefer (dont look at drifters please) Konis or bilsteins. There is a reason. I ran Konis on my first setup, and then on my second I got Konis again (this second set is actually what Eclipsh bought from me). Look at some of the best coilovers out there in the world (KWs, guess what, they are essentially revalved and two-way adjustable konis). Check out gixxerdrew's setup or check out DG's setup for the ultimate in information and information that is relevant to our particular setups.

 

[daren_p]

I want suspension that would put a BMW to shame.

Then sell your DSM & buy a Porsche

If you want a real suspension setup for your DSM, look here:

Autocross.dsm.org - Build Your Own Konis

Though this is well out of your $800 budget.....

 

[TSIMonsteR]

Then sell your DSM & buy a Porsche

If you want a real suspension setup for your DSM, look here:

Autocross.dsm.org - Build Your Own Konis

Though this is well out of your $800 budget.....

Man, someone should sell that as a kit ready to install for us lazy people.

 

[daren_p]

Man, someone should sell that as a kit ready to install for us lazy people.

He did (Dennis Grant) at one time (& may still will if you contact him) but I believe in typical DSM fashion, people where too cheap & there wasn't enough interest in the setup.

 

[lacroixdp]

I want suspension that would put a BMW to shame. I road in one sometime ago and it was badazz. I've read reviews of tokico, koni, and etc being bad when mixed together cause they don't compliment each other well. What do you have that can take corners well but still rides smooth? Looking for comments from AWD 2g's but I'm not bias.

If you want a car that handles like a BMW, then you've got the wrong car. You can definitely improve the handling on these with some of the suggestions above, but it will not come close to a well-sorted E30 M3, or even a E30 318iS. The newer BMW's are more of an embarrassment than driving machines... I hope you weren't referring to them.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Man, someone should sell that as a kit ready to install for us lazy people.

Contact me, I have the custom upper mounts being made as we speak, but I am selling them. No longer need them as my car is sold.

 

[1gengsxz3]

you know as another suggestion im going to throw a very cheap but effective route out there. Now i dont know if this works on 2g's but for my galant gsx i have a set of converted evo 9struts with tein springs. its is about as harsh as leaving kyb's one 8's and 4's but for maybe 400 dollars. There an easy setup to do aswell just weld in the rear bottom mounts from a dsm and take your top mounts and put them on the evo fronts and your done. i love it i bought a set off allready converted evo 9 for 300 shipped and payed like 300 for tein sorings and a at rear sway bar. you can even find the struts cheaper. then if you throw in a bushings kit and maybe some wide tires you got yourself a really nice handling car

 

[Ludachris]

I did not go off in the slightest most minuscule way even for half a second. I went on your comment of the "serious" racers on here comment. I paid good money for a great name that is synonymous for quality and results where it counts. The opinion of a few people automatically over rides any other opinion or fact on this site thats all. no one went off about anything I just forgot how bad my stuff sucks especially when adjusted correctly. Then I forgot that kyb is NO 1 in the world because the product they sell does not impress dsm owners. I am going to go light my agx's on fire now because they are no good, Thanks for the heads up on that. I guess thats also why I blast Stangs and vetts and g35's and twin turbo 350z and rb26 240 sx on our local twisty ass hill_billy back roads.

KYB is a good company and their "race" shocks are used widely in pro racing. However, the shocks they have available for the DSM are nothing more than factory replacements, and are NOT performance shocks. I'll stop short of calling KYB AGX crap. It does what it's supposed to do well, that is, replace a factory shock on a stock ride height DSM. If you want to outperform a BMW (as the original poster wanted to do), I would suggest something more than the KYB or Tokico solution.

DSMers don't have a lot of choices when it comes to good performance shocks. The only one available that even has shorter travel is the Koni - if you plan to lower the car, this is very important. And since part of making the car handle better involves lowering it, this is actually critical if you're not going with a full coilover. That's why the Koni is the only one I ever suggest if people want a good performing shock that will not wear out as fast as the cheaper alternatives when the car is lowered.

Bottom line, if you truly want to outperform a BMW (M3), go with full coilovers from a company like JIC or Hotbits, or at least a Koni/Ground Control setup. If you just want to have fun with the car on a budget, go with the AGX or Tokico solutions. You should still be able to out handle lesser cars with that setup and good summer tires (and bushings, swaybars, etc). The BMWs will be a bit more difficult, as they're great handling cars - though not all BMW's are created equal - the M3 is tough to beat, especially the E30 and E36. The E46 is a bit heavier but handles great too. I've had a lot of fun with one at the track.

Read through our Tech Guide people. This information is covered in there.

 

[Ludachris]

If you want a car that handles like a BMW, then you've got the wrong car. You can definitely improve the handling on these with some of the suggestions above, but it will not come close to a well-sorted E30 M3, or even a E30 318iS. The newer BMW's are more of an embarrassment than driving machines... I hope you weren't referring to them.

It's rare to even see an E30 BMW these days, let alone a well sorted E30. The E36 and E46 M3's are very good handling cars and have an easy advantage over the DSM. But if you build the car up right and use quality parts, you can actually make a DSM handle very well on a road course, well enough to hang with or beat a stock or lightly modded M3.

My car would hang with just about any car on the track last year. The problem is, most DSMers are cheap bastards who want to kill a BMW but only want to pay pennies to do it. And it isn't always possible. You have to spend some money if you truly want to outperform a car like a BMW M3 or a Z06. If starting from stock figure about $1800 - $2500 and you'll have a great handling DSM - and that's not counting wheels/tires. Though that sounds outrageously expensive to DSMers, it's actually pretty cheap when comparing the costs of modifying other cars on the market. If you want to do things right you have to be willing to spend some money.

And contrary to popular belief, these cars CAN actually handle well. There just hasn't been very many people who have put the time, effort, or money into them to see the results. This is because most DSMers are straight line guys with no interest in turning and/or the majority of the DSM community is usually broke and can't afford good parts necessary to build a complete car (as opposed to a fast car).

 

[quayzar590awd]

OIC what you mean thanks chris, But i did have one little question, If my shocks are little more then factory replacement why do they allow me options for tuning the cars handling . Our stockers dont allow any @ all. Do you mean that they put these controls on a regular old strut and call it fancy or what?

 

[Ludachris]

OIC what you mean thanks chris, But i did have one little question, If my shocks are little more then factory replacement why do they allow me options for tuning the cars handling . Our stockers dont allow any @ all. Do you mean that they put these controls on a regular old strut and call it fancy or what?

They are decent cheap adjustable shocks. And they're actually a step up from stock. But again, they are known to wear out quick when you lower the car. If you're going to keep it stock ride height, then they'll be fine. But we all know that you have to lower the car if you want it to handle better. And that's where you have to look into something like Koni or a full coilover.

And when you're adjusting these shocks, you're not really "tuning the car's handling" all that much. You're changing the damping/rebound. Most of your tuning will be done with alignment settings and tire pressure, not just damping adjustments. That setting alone won't make much difference outside of making the ride more/less harsh.

If you guys are really serious about wanting to learn about DSM handling, you should spend some time reading through the Road Racing forum here on the site. Also check the Tech Guides for road race setup suggestions and info.

 

[ACM]

I emphatically second Ludachris' comments - a 2G can easily handle well enough such that the driver will determine the outcome and not the car. BMWs are not _that_ good 2G's downfall is as a result of the virtual steering pivot - it works wonderfully on the CAD screen, but when translated to the real world it requires very large, soft bushings, which allow the suspension geometry to wander all over the place when it loads up. A lower arm like the 1G/Evo would have allowed much smaller, stiffer bushings to be used.

Search this forum carefully, there's probably more solid 2G data here than anywhere else, plus JToby wrote an excellent treatise on 2Gs that's here somewhere.

Be careful when comparing what works on 1Gs to what works on 2Gs; the suspension designs are completely different and the calibration completely different again, they simply cannot be compared - 1G suspension is closer to the Evo than the 2G. There are numerous instances of a brand that works well on one generation and badly on the other.

I was not aware that RM bars had ceased - that's very disappointing..

 

[Jeff99GS]

Besides all the stuff everyone else said, balancing the weight of the cars 4 corners helps also. Move the battery to the trunk. Removing weight in some spots and adding it to other spots can improve the handling quite a bit. Also DO NOT correct your camber after he car is lowered. Leave it -3 degrees camber or whatever it is. This usually helps the grip on high speed turns a bit.

Look into the Tein coilovers.

$799.99

 

[ian_maham]

Then sell your DSM & buy a Porsche

If you want a real suspension setup for your DSM, look here:

Autocross.dsm.org - Build Your Own Konis

Though this is well out of your $800 budget.....

Porsches are lame and for horny Germans who take extasy.......

 

[ian_maham]

My $0.02, if you want to keep your ride somewhat quiet and perfectly streetable then get the pro-kit on some koni yellows and a set of Sway bars (Not sure whats available anymore since RM bars arent around now). Itll feel like a new car, and be pretty good with the handling.

If you want to get more serious then pair the koni's with either the koni or GC perches and run 600/300, 700/350, or 900/450. Ive seen all those combinations work really well, and currently using the 700/350 set up with F/R RM bars.

Then start working on more camber up front, urethane or spherical bushings, and definately better rubber.

Just remember, the stiffer you go the more road noise youll have to deal with.

I've read about the pro-kit before and heard nothing but good comments. Those are def up there on my imaginary list.

 

[ian_maham]

If you want a car that handles like a BMW, then you've got the wrong car. You can definitely improve the handling on these with some of the suggestions above, but it will not come close to a well-sorted E30 M3, or even a E30 318iS. The newer BMW's are more of an embarrassment than driving machines... I hope you weren't referring to them.

I was referring to the 1995 e36. they are just awesom

 

[ian_maham]

KYB is a good company and their "race" shocks are used widely in pro racing. However, the shocks they have available for the DSM are nothing more than factory replacements, and are NOT performance shocks. I'll stop short of calling KYB AGX crap. It does what it's supposed to do well, that is, replace a factory shock on a stock ride height DSM. If you want to outperform a BMW (as the original poster wanted to do), I would suggest something more than the KYB or Tokico solution.

DSMers don't have a lot of choices when it comes to good performance shocks. The only one available that even has shorter travel is the Koni - if you plan to lower the car, this is very important. And since part of making the car handle better involves lowering it, this is actually critical if you're not going with a full coilover. That's why the Koni is the only one I ever suggest if people want a good performing shock that will not wear out as fast as the cheaper alternatives when the car is lowered.

Bottom line, if you truly want to outperform a BMW (M3), go with full coilovers from a company like JIC or Hotbits, or at least a Koni/Ground Control setup. If you just want to have fun with the car on a budget, go with the AGX or Tokico solutions. You should still be able to out handle lesser cars with that setup and good summer tires (and bushings, swaybars, etc). The BMWs will be a bit more difficult, as they're great handling cars - though not all BMW's are created equal - the M3 is tough to beat, especially the E30 and E36. The E46 is a bit heavier but handles great too. I've had a lot of fun with one at the track.

Read through our Tech Guide people. This information is covered in there.

WIll Do! thatnks for that indepth reply.

 

[eclipsh]

Just to follow up, I got the Koni/GC suspension on yesterday morning and it is very nice. It isn't nearly as bouncy as the AGX struts were. Save your money and buy the right setup the first time is all I can say.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

It's rare to even see an E30 BMW these days, let alone a well sorted E30. The E36 and E46 M3's are very good handling cars and have an easy advantage over the DSM. But if you build the car up right and use quality parts, you can actually make a DSM handle very well on a road course, well enough to hang with or beat a stock or lightly modded M3.

My car would hang with just about any car on the track last year. The problem is, most DSMers are cheap bastards who want to kill a BMW but only want to pay pennies to do it. And it isn't always possible. You have to spend some money if you truly want to outperform a car like a BMW M3 or a Z06. If starting from stock figure about $1800 - $2500 and you'll have a great handling DSM - and that's not counting wheels/tires. Though that sounds outrageously expensive to DSMers, it's actually pretty cheap when comparing the costs of modifying other cars on the market. If you want to do things right you have to be willing to spend some money.

And contrary to popular belief, these cars CAN actually handle well. There just hasn't been very many people who have put the time, effort, or money into them to see the results. This is because most DSMers are straight line guys with no interest in turning and/or the majority of the DSM community is usually broke and can't afford good parts necessary to build a complete car (as opposed to a fast car).

I guess that shows your on the west coast. NASA Mid-Atlantic is chock full of e30s, e36s and e46 probably almost more popular than the miatas (spec e30 fields are huge)

OH and SHH I dropped the dsm platform to build a Spec3 car.

 

[quayzar590awd]

Your not kidding bro. I can count AT LEAST 6 just in my development. And there are only about 30 houses in here. We have a newer bmw 5 series. I also noticed we have a HUGE 3000gt and supra following around here as well. I know prob 10 people with 3kgt's and prob another 10 with supras in some shape or form from a beautiful stock white 85 or 86 turbo to a 98 single turbo MC freakin nasty and everything in between. OH and there are the honDUHHHHHHHHHH DUHHHH DUH boys with a b16 swap pulling up next to me thinking they are going to eat me alive by a mile. . Ocean city is the hot spot for seeing some nasty cars often and many many of them. sorry off topic but you made a great observation. MDers must have a ton o money sitting around. There is a guy in my hood with a supercharged GT 40 for a DD .

 

[lacroixdp]

It's rare to even see an E30 BMW these days, let alone a well sorted E30. The E36 and E46 M3's are very good handling cars and have an easy advantage over the DSM. But if you build the car up right and use quality parts, you can actually make a DSM handle very well on a road course, well enough to hang with or beat a stock or lightly modded M3.

My car would hang with just about any car on the track last year. The problem is, most DSMers are cheap bastards who want to kill a BMW but only want to pay pennies to do it. And it isn't always possible. You have to spend some money if you truly want to outperform a car like a BMW M3 or a Z06. If starting from stock figure about $1800 - $2500 and you'll have a great handling DSM - and that's not counting wheels/tires. Though that sounds outrageously expensive to DSMers, it's actually pretty cheap when comparing the costs of modifying other cars on the market. If you want to do things right you have to be willing to spend some money.

And contrary to popular belief, these cars CAN actually handle well. There just hasn't been very many people who have put the time, effort, or money into them to see the results. This is because most DSMers are straight line guys with no interest in turning and/or the majority of the DSM community is usually broke and can't afford good parts necessary to build a complete car (as opposed to a fast car).

They may be rare where you race at, but they are very common in the Midwest. Compared to the newer BMW's, the E30 M3 is a very raw, primitive racing machine. It its far more twitchy at the limit, and can even challenge regular drivers on regular road conditions (wet roads especially, where they are known for snap oversteer), but if you know how to handle it, it rewards you with a very rich driving experience, without the use of electronics to keep you on the road. The newer BMW's are great dissapointments in that BMW put electronics and creature comforts ahead of the driving experience. The newest M3 is a down-right embarrassment - it resembles absolutely nothing what an M3 is supposed to be. It is extremely heavy, loaded down with unnecessary nanny controls, and it has lost it's character on the road, numbed for comfort's sake.
Of course, with any amount of money, you can make virtually any car handle well, and the DSM is not an exception. You're absolutely right that people that own them are usually too cheap to put a proper suspension on them. However, if I put that same amount of money into an E30, it'll always stay ahead. I suppose that's where I took exception to this question... I can't figure out for the life of me why anyone would want to aspire to a BMW, being what they are now. I absolutely love the older ones, especially the 2002tii, but the newer ones are just like every other car now... loaded down with things I don't want, and you can't get them without them.

 

[Ludachris]

They may be rare where you race at, but they are very common in the Midwest. Compared to the newer BMW's, the E30 M3 is a very raw, primitive racing machine. It its far more twitchy at the limit, and can even challenge regular drivers on regular road conditions (wet roads especially, where they are known for snap oversteer), but if you know how to handle it, it rewards you with a very rich driving experience, without the use of electronics to keep you on the road. The newer BMW's are great dissapointments in that BMW put electronics and creature comforts ahead of the driving experience. The newest M3 is a down-right embarrassment - it resembles absolutely nothing what an M3 is supposed to be. It is extremely heavy, loaded down with unnecessary nanny controls, and it has lost it's character on the road, numbed for comfort's sake.
Of course, with any amount of money, you can make virtually any car handle well, and the DSM is not an exception. You're absolutely right that people that own them are usually too cheap to put a proper suspension on them. However, if I put that same amount of money into an E30, it'll always stay ahead. I suppose that's where I took exception to this question... I can't figure out for the life of me why anyone would want to aspire to a BMW, being what they are now. I absolutely love the older ones, especially the 2002tii, but the newer ones are just like every other car now... loaded down with things I don't want, and you can't get them without them.

There will always be purists. I really like the raw E30 myself, but I'd have to disagree that the new M3 is an embarrassment. Show me one car these days that isn't heavy and full of too many electronics. BMW has done a great job of implementing the driver aids while keeping the driver in touch with the road - probably better than most other car makers. Certainly better than any in its segment. Though the newer cars can't match the old cars in terms of raw driving feel and handling, they simply have too many regulations to adhere to these days. Technology and safety is heavy. I think they've done well with the car, keeping all that in mind.

I am a big fan of the E30 M3, as well as the old Datsun 510 and some of the other legendary handling cars. But we're in a DSM forum trying to give advice on how to help DSMers make their cars handle as good as they can. Let's try and keep it in perspective. These cars are what they are. The M3 platform has a distinct handling advantage. But with some money and proper setup, a DSM can do quite well.

 

[matthewdesigns]

My $0.02, if you want to keep your ride somewhat quiet and perfectly streetable then get the pro-kit on some koni yellows and a set of Sway bars (Not sure whats available anymore since RM bars arent around now). Itll feel like a new car, and be pretty good with the handling.

I was not aware that RM bars had ceased - that's very disappointing..

They are not gone. Here's a thread started by MachV today offering them for sale.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/ven...-2g-now-availalbe-la-carte.html#post151935188