hydrogen supplement?!?!?

[wret]

Yeah, okay solar works. You can cover your roof with solar panels and get about 200 watts of power, (what's that, about 1/4 hp?). Now you've got some usable energy. Why would you use it try to separate hydrogen?

 

[Morphius]

Yeah, okay solar works. You can cover your roof with solar panels and get about 200 watts of power, (what's that, about 1/4 hp?). Now you've got some usable energy. Why would you use it try to separate hydrogen?

Why? Why not? Other than the initial cost of the array, it's free energy after that. My point was everyone was raggin' on the kid because of the energy equation and robbing power to make it. Then he could make it without taxing the electrical system on the car.

 

[wret]

Why? Why not? Other than the initial cost of the array, it's free energy after that. My point was everyone was raggin' on the kid because of the energy equation and robbing power to make it. Then he could make it without taxing the electrical system on the car.

Because making hydrogen (for fuel) from water will never be efficient regardless of the energy source for the conversion. No matter what source you use; gasoline, solar-electric, or wind, it's more efficient to use the energy directly.

The concept of supplementing fuel economy is admirable. There are a few ideas that actually work and no doubt many more to come in the future, but there is a reason Prius uses electric motors and not hydrogen. I would hate to see our young, out-of-the-box thinkers pay out-of-the-nose for a gadget that won’t get out-of-its-own-way.

 

[DougR]

Some of you guys need to do some more researching of the latest ways of producing hydrogen.

Ppl are getting very Large amounts of hydrogen from very small and simple devices.
A Few MiliLiters of hydrogen wont do mutch but add some MPG.
Now make a HHO generator thats capable of producing 10 LITERS per minute! The potential is awsome! You want a HHO car to beable "to-get-out-of-its-own-way"?
up the scale from small 6pack sized HHO generator, to a larger system that CAN support 300+ HP
And it will get out of its own way, Very fast! And remeber this is on a engine designed for GASOLINE not hydrogen, but yet the hydrogen does a wonderful job at powering this gasoline engine.. Hmm. what kind of efficiency and power could we get from a engine designed to be powerd by Hydrogen only....Hmm
Shure it requires gasoline to get the system started (for now, this is due to one thing. Batterys! the tecnology in electrical storage systems is just not there yet!) but once the system is running. All thats required is a small amount of electricity!

What you see on TV is exactly that! TV! Do you think that certain companys want us to power our vehicals and homes on something that falls from the sky and covers 2/3rds of our planet? HELL NO THEY DONT!
They all want the same thing we do $$$$ and lots of it!
So they hide the truth in a bunch of disinformation! And then we get ppl who like to spread that information, without actually finding out if its true or not! (sound familiar?)

And why do the latest Hybrids use Inefficent Batterys and Electric motors? cause its still powerd and charged by GASOLINE! or diesel engines.
Figure up the cost of gas that you will use over a life time. now times that by all of the ppl driving! It becomes plainly simple why these Select companys and ppl donot want Alternative sources of powering our vehicals and homes.

Like you all like to say "Research before you speak", some of you guys are obviously thinking of OLD ways of producing hydrogen from water.

 

[MASMORE]

Agreed!!!



Hydrogen Booster

Herman Anderson -- Water Fuel System -- US Patent # 5,852,993 & 6,119,651

Let the truth be heard, and stop the chaos!!

 

[the_mork]

This really isn't feasible, but it also doesn't violate energy conservation because all you're doing is harvesting useless energy (the extra energy used after your charging system is full). Basically you are scavenging energy much like a turbo scavenges otherwise useless energy (exhaust pressure) and you are attempting to increase the efficiency of the engine. Now that we are on the same theoretical page, it doesn't work. The technology isn't there and anyone who tells you otherwise is ill-informed or pulling your leg, it does have some potential eventually but that application is likely to have almost no resemblance to the technology today so save your money, that $180 will let you go 1125 miles without any special equipment.

 

[DougR]

Want more?

Im shure everyone has seen the new BMW that runs on Hydrogen?
Or the Ford?
Hmm.

Check it.
Some Solar and Hydrogen info

The BMW that Runs on Hydrogen AND gasoline

There are Literally Thousands of Research papers avalible on the web. Take a step back and learn something new.

You want Extreme? How about seperating the water and then the Hydrogen from the very AIR we breath!

 

[MASMORE]

And heres more too:

Hydropowercar: News

Belive it or not the information is here and do as you please with it. I tell you this much do, if your questioning the technology then your probably not doing anything to help either, period!!

 

[Mr Peepers]

This really isn't feasible, but it also doesn't violate energy conservation because all you're doing is harvesting useless energy (the extra energy used after your charging system is full). Basically you are scavenging energy much like a turbo scavenges otherwise useless energy (exhaust pressure) and you are attempting to increase the efficiency of the engine. Now that we are on the same theoretical page, it doesn't work. The technology isn't there and anyone who tells you otherwise is ill-informed or pulling your leg, it does have some potential eventually but that application is likely to have almost no resemblance to the technology today so save your money, that $180 will let you go 1125 miles without any special equipment.

Any time current is drawn from the alternator it gets harder to turn, and translates into load put on the engine causing extra gas consumption. Now the trick is to create enough hydrogen to compensate for this and more, which isn't feasible with modern day electrolysis. Even if you COULD create as much hydrogen as the expended gas to separate HHO from water, you're putting it back into a very inefficient engine again anyway. Most of the energy in fuel is wasted as heat rather than into motion in an internal combustion engine. Also, turbochargers use this heat, not just the exhaust pressure which is why they are deemed so efficient; the "free lunch." Something interesting is an alternator spun by exhaust gases, similar to a turbocharger.

p.s. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to go against everything you are saying; I just wanted to elaborate.

Remember, as stated, water is already in a lower energy state. All you are doing is putting it into a higher energy state by separating it and hoping to get more than you put in by recombining it.

DougR, why not go one step further and use this 300hp capable engine to generate electricity, generate hydrogen from that electricity and run itself? Or why don't people use the electricity from hydrogen fuel cells to generate hydrogen and run themselves?

Using hydrogen becomes feasible when you use a renewable resource such as wind or solar energy to separate/generate it, but you are still only using it as a medium; similar to a battery. What you are proposing is a battery that recharges itself.

If you know me, you'll know I am VERY interested in new technology/ideas and all for keeping an open mind. But! I see a lot of confusion in this thread.

 

[Enki]

Some of you guys need to do some more researching of the latest ways of producing hydrogen.

Ppl are getting very Large amounts of hydrogen from very small and simple devices.
A Few MiliLiters of hydrogen wont do mutch but add some MPG.
Now make a HHO generator thats capable of producing 10 LITERS per minute! The potential is awsome!

Hydrogen gas has a weight density of .08988 g/L and an energy density of 143 KJ/g. 10 liters of pure hydrogen would weigh 0.898g and contain 129 KJ of energy.

Gasoline has a weight density of 737.22 g/L and an energy density of 46.9 KJ/g.

Your ten liters of hydrogen will have the same amount of energy as (149/46.9) 2.75 grams of gasoline.

2.75 grams of gasoline has a volume of .00373 liters or 0.000985361755 gallons.

If you paid $4/gallon for gas then 10 liters of hydrogen contains the same energy as less than one half of one cent's worth of gas ($0.00394)

What you see on TV is exactly that! TV! Do you think that certain companys want us to power our vehicals and homes on something that falls from the sky and covers 2/3rds of our planet? HELL NO THEY DONT!
They all want the same thing we do $$$$ and lots of it!
So they hide the truth in a bunch of disinformation!

Are you serious? Huge subsidies for corn ethanol? The President promoting hydrogen in the State of the Union address? Anyone trying to hide this stuff isn't doing a very good job.

And then we get ppl who like to spread that information, without actually finding out if its true or not! (sound familiar?)

So you have scientific evidence these gadgets work? Feel free to share.

 

[Enki]

DougR, why not go one step further and use this 300hp capable engine to generate electricity, generate hydrogen from that electricity and run itself? Or why don't people use the electricity from hydrogen fuel cells to generate hydrogen and run themselves?

In this house we obey the Laws of Thermodynamics!

 

[the_mork]

And heres more too:

Hydropowercar: News

Belive it or not the information is here and do as you please with it. I tell you this much do, if your questioning the technology then your probably not doing anything to help either, period!!

FOXNews.com - Junk Science: The Great Global Warming Race - Opinion I refuse to give money to research that will rob me of my own potential, don't assume because something is self-evident to you that it is true or even reasonable. The "problem" is a result of crappy data and dogged justifications of why things just don't pan out the way some climatologists want them to.

 

[casperfast]

Any time current is drawn from the alternator it gets harder to turn, and translates into load put on the engine causing extra gas consumption. Now the trick is to create enough hydrogen to compensate for this and more, which isn't feasible with modern day hydrolysis. Even if you COULD create as much hydrogen as the expended gas to separate HHO from water, you're putting it back into a very inefficient engine again anyway. Most of the energy in fuel is wasted as heat rather than into motion in an internal combustion engine. Also, turbochargers use this heat, not just the exhaust pressure which is why they are deemed so efficient; the "free lunch." Something interesting is an alternator spun by exhaust gases, similar to a turbocharger.

p.s. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to go against everything you are saying; I just wanted to elaborate.

Remember, as stated, water is already in a lower energy state. All you are doing is putting it into a higher energy state by separating it and hoping to get more than you put in by recombining it.

DougR, why not go one step further and use this 300hp capable engine to generate electricity, generate hydrogen from that electricity and run itself? Or why don't people use the electricity from hydrogen fuel cells to generate hydrogen and run themselves?

Using hydrogen becomes feasible when you use a renewable resource such as wind or solar energy to separate/generate it, but you are still only using it as a medium; similar to a battery. What you are proposing is a battery that recharges itself.

If you know me, you'll know I am VERY interested in new technology/ideas and all for keeping an open mind. But! I see a lot of confusion in this thread.

now im going to have to urge the fact that it draws less than a 500 ### amp for a stereo. and defiant..... tisk tisk i thought you being a moderator you would be more open minded. 75% air/ fuel with 25% hydrogen is 109 octane..... DO YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!
this is not a joke hydrogen takes verry little power to create, about 1/8 to 1/20th it takes to power your darn headlights. c'mon guys this is not a joke this is REAL. one of my trainers in electrical was john weyland he owns the fastest street legal car in the WORLD its called white zombie it has two series 8 electric motors joined at the commutator and makes 1612 ft/lb at 100 rpm. hetaought me all about electrical theory and then reality. you are not entirely wrong when you say it requires energy to make, but the burning of hydrogen is more energy than it takes to create it by far. i I WILL be adapting hydrogen to my car soon and i will have plenty of pics and vids and then you skeptics will be changing your minds dont sweat it, just because it sounds complicated doesnt mean it is. oh and somone said there is salt or somthing added to the water, any water with metalic minerals in it will conduct not pure water, i believe it is iron or sodium oxide not sure.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Now the trick is to create enough hydrogen to compensate for this and more, which isn't feasible with modern day hydrolysis.

I think you meant electrolysis...

I agree with most of your points. Someone recently had the same idea for use in a 420A and you'll see that our arguments are similar.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420...0850-2g-n-t-hybrid-project-hybrid-theory.html

 

[Enki]

now im going to have to urge the fact that it draws less than a 500 ### amp for a stereo. and defiant..... tisk tisk i thought u being a moderator you would be more open minded. 75% air/ fuel with 25% hydrogen is 109 octane..... DO YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!
this is not a joke hydrogen takes verry little power to create, about 1/8 to 1/20th it takes to power your darn headlights. c'mon guys this is not a joke this is REAL. one of my trainers in electrical was john weyland he owns the fastest street legal car in the WORLD its called white zombie it has two series 8 electric motors joined at the commutator and makes 1612 ft/lb at 100 rpm. hetaought me all about electrical theory and then reality. you are not entirely wrong when you say it requires energy to make, but the burning of hydrogen is more energy than it takes to create it by far. i I WILL be adapting hydrogen to my car soon and i will have plenty of pics and vids and then you skeptics will be changing your minds dont sweat it, just because it sounds complicated doesnt mean it is. oh and somone said there is salt or somthing added to the water, any water with metalic minerals in it will conduct not pure water, i believe it is iron or sodium oxide not sure.

Wow.

Octane ratings have nothing to do with power, they're a measure of knock resistance. Power only comes through tuning to take advantage of this.

Wayland's White Zombie is a purely electric car running mid 11s. It's certainly not the world's fastest street legal car. It also has nothing to do with a discussion about hydrogen.

You start with water + electrical energy and end with water + heat energy. Please explain how you can end up with more energy than you started with.

If it only requires a minuscule amount of energy input then guess what, that's all you're going to get out of it too.

 

[MASMORE]

So basically you guys have zero tolerance for unconventional projects? Or is it that you dislike a change for the better?

 

[Enki]

So basically you guys have zero tolerance for unconventional projects? Or is it that you dislike a change for the better?

If by "unconventional projects" you mean attempting to create a perpetual motion machine that violates the laws of physics then yes.

The hydrogen combustion in these systems will not produce any more energy than the initial amount used in electrolysis. It's simply not possible.

It *may* be possible that the disassociated gas from electrolysis is providing a higher proportion of oxygen (33% vs. 21% in air) that increases power in a method similar to nitrous. But this would be a very small amount of oxygen and there would be no charge cooling effect like in nitrous. Any power increase would likely be overwhelmed by inefficiencies, weight, and power draw from electrolysis.

 

[Defiant]

If you reach down and take hold of your socks, and pull really, really hard, you can actually lift yourself off the ground.
Or, you can power a sailboat by attaching a fan to the transom to fill the sail.

I pray it's only because you're young, and not that you're actually simple enough to be duped by these charlatans. Yes, we are making huge strides in efficiency -particularly in the world of storage batteries- and the processing powers of modern computing systems and their implementation in control systems is doing what used to be unbelievable things. But we are not on the verge of miraculous leaps that will render three-hundred and more years' of physical science investigation and discovery suddenly errant.

Besides, if any of this stuff worked, Big Oil would kill the inventors and smother their creations.

And where's the goddamned ceramic engines they were promising us in the seventies?

 

[wret]

So basically you guys have zero tolerance for unconventional projects? Or is it that you dislike a change for the better?

I've always been a tinkerer, innovator and inventor. I got where I am today through creativity. I'm all for new ideas based on sound science. I'd be standing in line to get one if it had a chance of working. Hell, I bought Slick 50 when it was about $40 a quart and strapped a magnet to my gas line. These were based on science that, at the time, I didn't understand or had no way to prove.

But the science of separating hydrogen and oxygen atoms from water has been well understood for over a hundred years. I was a making it in the kitchen when I was a teenager. The only innovations in this area are more efficient methods approaching a theoretical maximum. If one day, one of these "unconventional" inventors finds a way to reach 100% efficiency, it still comes down to energy in=energy out. The day someone finds a process that yields 101% is the day the world’s energy and food concerns are over.

 

[the_mork]

Any time current is drawn from the alternator it gets harder to turn, and translates into load put on the engine causing extra gas consumption. Now the trick is to create enough hydrogen to compensate for this and more, which isn't feasible with modern day electrolysis. Even if you COULD create as much hydrogen as the expended gas to separate HHO from water, you're putting it back into a very inefficient engine again anyway. Most of the energy in fuel is wasted as heat rather than into motion in an internal combustion engine. Also, turbochargers use this heat, not just the exhaust pressure which is why they are deemed so efficient; the "free lunch." Something interesting is an alternator spun by exhaust gases, similar to a turbocharger.

p.s. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to go against everything you are saying; I just wanted to elaborate.

Remember, as stated, water is already in a lower energy state. All you are doing is putting it into a higher energy state by separating it and hoping to get more than you put in by recombining it.

DougR, why not go one step further and use this 300hp capable engine to generate electricity, generate hydrogen from that electricity and run itself? Or why don't people use the electricity from hydrogen fuel cells to generate hydrogen and run themselves?

Using hydrogen becomes feasible when you use a renewable resource such as wind or solar energy to separate/generate it, but you are still only using it as a medium; similar to a battery. What you are proposing is a battery that recharges itself.

If you know me, you'll know I am VERY interested in new technology/ideas and all for keeping an open mind. But! I see a lot of confusion in this thread.

To elaborate a bit more this idea of picking up the extra wasted energy from the electrical system is what makes a hybrid work after all you are already rotating the mass of the parts from the charging system without the electromagnetic resistance that allows it to create electricity in a hybrid this charges batteries in a hydrogen supplement car this creates hydrogen but in the hydrogen system you are converting that energy two more times (electricity to energized HHO and HHO to combustion) and losing any possible real life gains. The place where this works best is when you are at idle and the total efficiency of your combustion engine is 0% so if it does anything (creating hydrogen) suddenly you are infinitely more efficient but then compare this to a hybrid where the engine is simply off and not using any energy and your infinitely more efficient hydrogen system just looks dumb, hydrogen supplement systems are not useful, not intelligent and not economical.

All of this is not to say that I think hybrids are amazing end all and be all cars after all they come with their problems too, your original expense in buying these more expensive cars wont be paid back for years in your total gas savings and even then some just gasoline cars will be just as efficient so you might not gain there, but you've gone ahead and calculated that you'll save money with a hybrid and your confident. Great go ahead be happy with your new car just don't tell me you did it for the environment, if you do I won't respect your opinion any less (except for the fact that you're wrong) but you will be wrong. Green house gases eventually go away, heavy metals do not. Do yourself a favor, if you love the environment avoid both of these technologies.

A quick note on electric engines, electric engines produce 100% of their torque at any rpm range therefore "1612 ft/lb at 100 rpm." is redundant you should just say "1612 ft/lb" as unlike a IC engine the rest of that statement is meaningless.

 

[casperfast]

Wow.

Octane ratings have nothing to do with power, they're a measure of knock resistance. Power only comes through tuning to take advantage of this.

Wayland's White Zombie is a purely electric car running mid 11s. It's certainly not the world's fastest street legal car. It also has nothing to do with a discussion about hydrogen.

You start with water + electrical energy and end with water + heat energy. Please explain how you can end up with more energy than you started with.

If it only requires a minuscule amount of energy input then guess what, that's all you're going to get out of it too.

fastest street legal ELECTRIC car

 

[Mr Peepers]

That's kind of a big point you left out there

 

[Defiant]

To elaborate a bit more this idea of picking up the extra wasted energy from the electrical system

What? "Extra" energy? WTF The electrical system puts out whatever is demanded of it, up to its capacity. It doesn't just "appear". It puts a load -oh, looky- equal to the amount of power it's generating, plus whatever mechanical losses are involved with spinning things in a bearing, or running drive belts to it.

Have you ever load-tested an alternator on a bench test rig? You can smoke the drive belts with enough (and, not all that much) electrical load.

 

[MASMORE]

Thats quite the explanation there but unrelated to the real answer! If such technology did not existed then why the big hype over it? I mean even major corporation are seeking this? I really think people over look the cause and effect and for the record yes oil rigs would be doom! Yeah I guess some people have their heads so far up their @ss they don't realized todays crisis and tomorrow's sorrows...

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Thats quite the explanation there but unrelated to the real answer! If such technology did not existed then why the big hype over it? I mean even major corporation are seeking this? I really think people over look the cause and effect and for the record yes oil rigs would be doom! Yeah I guess some people have their heads so far up their @ss they don't realized todays crisis and tomorrow's sorrows...

Yes, oil companies and researchers are seeking new technology based around hydrogen production because current technology isn't up to par. No one denied the energy crisis or the relevance of a hydrogen economy; we're just not there yet.