hydrogen supplement?!?!?

[Enki]

Thats quite the explanation there but unrelated to the real answer! If such technology did not existed then why the big hype over it?

Thankfully, science is not decided by majority vote.

I mean even major corporation are seeking this? I really think people over look the cause and effect and for the record yes oil rigs would be doom! Yeah I guess some people have their heads so far up their @ss they don't realized todays crisis and tomorrow's sorrows...

Please stop trying to paint everyone who doesn't believe you as ignorant pawns of the oil industry. It's irrelevant and, frankly, a bit silly.

If the systems are so easy and cheap to use then get one and post videos of before and after dyno runs. Until you can post videos showing real gains in multiple cars, you have no proof at all that the system works.

Seriously, show us some hard evidence and I'll be in line right behind you to buy one. Until then, you're about as credible as a Flat-Earther.

 

[Defiant]

Thats quite the explanation there but unrelated to the real answer!

What? What in the hell kind of sentence are you trying to assemble?

If such technology did not existed then why the big hype over it?

You've found the key word: HYPE.

I mean even major corporation are seeking this?

"Seeking", but not finding.

I really think people over look the cause and effect and for the record yes oil rigs would be doom!

Are you sober? Is there some kind of undiagnosed malady from which your intellect is apparently suffering? How many oil rigs have you seen in your life? How many tanker trips have you sailed, and how many refineries have you worked at as an inspector?

Yeah I guess some people have their heads so far up their @ss they don't realized todays crisis and tomorrow's sorrows...

Oh, I dearly hope you aren't trying to lose this whole thread.

Let me tell you something about "todays crisis", which I'll go out on a limb and guess you meant to mean "today's crisis": in 1968, we were taught in science class that we were on the verge of an impending ice age which would have the Northern Hemisphere blanketed in twenty feet of ice as far south as the tip of Florida. We were also told that the planet's oil would be all used up by 1980. So you'll have to forgive those of us with a plurality of brain cells to rub together and who are capable of remembering the various lines of horseshit we've been told from many decades ago.
Don't get suckered-in by the day's sales headlines. The News Business is only there to scare you into buying things, and politicians are only in office to get themselves re-elected. Oil's profits are up 300% this year, the ethanol debacle has raised the price of everything we put in our mouths, and we still trudge off to work each day to pay the tax bills. The sheep in the herd just munch and meander.

 

[phunny]

I was on a submarine for a number of years and we had 2 oxygen generators. We split water and used the oxygen to breathe. Now the hydrogen we just pumped overboard. It's really not that complicated, the biggest problem we always had was not blowing up. You have O2 and H2, which both are extremely explosive. I'm sure you can do it, the question is, do you really want to? And for all you guys that just pop off saying guys who believe this are morons, get a life or shut up.

Later guys.

 

[Mr Peepers]

I was on a submarine for a number of years and we had 2 oxygen generators. We split water and used the oxygen to breathe. Now the hydrogen we just pumped overboard. It's really not that complicated, the biggest problem we always had was not blowing up. You have O2 and H2, which both are extremely explosive. I'm sure you can do it, the question is, do you really want to? And for all you guys that just pop off saying guys who believe this are morons, get a life or shut up.

Later guys.

No one said electrolysis isn't possible, and no one has been called a moron for knowing it is.

You generate oxygen (which itself isn't flammable) with the byproduct of hydrogen through electrolysis, which is sustained by either diesel-electric or nuclear power in larger submarines. Electrolysis is not a self sustaining, free energy, over unity process- that's what is being argued.

 

[the_mork]

I guess "extra energy" is a bad way of putting it, "low cost energy" is a somewhat more descriptive term. What I was alluding to was the electrical energy that can be created by most cars at little or even no cost because of the basic inefficiency of common designs, and specifically I was pointing to idling, slowing down, and coasting, in such instances the engine is using fuel just to keep itself spinning without really providing power to the wheels and with the sheer magnitude of power needed to keep a metal rotating assembly going smoothly and fast enough to keep everyday consumers from worrying at every stop sign (it isn't much compared to accelerating but huge compared to not moving or idling smaller engines) then we can assume that we can take at least take a few joules without changing the rate of consumption, and we can continue to do this from now to eternity as long as tuning remains relatively greedy from a conservation standpoint to keep consumers happy. In short if we put enough load on the engine that we can take a little energy, but little enough load that the engine management system doesn't increase fuel use then we have found some "extra energy" that would otherwise have been wasted and we can use it to make a more efficient system. The first argument to my point would be that to do that we could only take a little bit of energy before we increase load enough that the ecu or whatever system we're using pumps in more fuel and air and we just turn our engines into really powerful really inefficient generators but I've been saying that all along, that is exactly the reason why hydrogen supplement doesn't work but the idea does not violate any law of physics. Pick away, I wont claim to be an expert on automotive charging systems or chemistry or physics but I think what I'm saying is fairly sound.

Edit: I agree with Defiant about "today's crisis" we're now projected to have 10 years of global cooling, and whether or not global warming is going to kill us all one day (which it might but I doubt mankind will have had anything to do with the sort of climate change that will destroy us) we also need to focus on today and being realistic, paying attention to expectations of how we're going to destroy ourselves will make your head spin and twenty years from now you won't be able to remember all of the hair-brained reasons seemingly reasonable people have come up with to explain that we are doomed to extinction because there will be just as many equally new and equally wrong theories floating around. So far global warming avoidance strategies have done more harm than good, the use of crops to create ethanol has driven up the price of food to the point where hundreds of thousands of people are having a harder time just keeping a full belly and thousands of those are unable to get a partially full belly, legislation designed to protect the environment has curbed the ability of American companies to compete and make profits affecting the bottom line of every American family, and pending legislation to limit carbon outputs by manufacturing companies has a projected cost of an economy wide 12% loss over the next 50 years, if you need comparison todays economy is growing at .6% and most of the nation is screaming bloody murder. If you want to do your part to stop global warming go ahead, I like trees and grass, and I like animals, protect the environment for all your worth, but don't kill people for it and don't make the world suffer a lower standard of living for your beliefs and to protect us from an unsubstantiated threat.

 

[Mr Peepers]

The Mork, I agree with you. When at idle, fuel mileage is zero. When you are coming to a stop, all the kinetic energy is being converted to heat in the pads/rotors- there is much efficiency left to be scavenged.

A gasoline engine strives for 14.7:1 (stoich) at idle and part throttle. It varies the power output by varying the intake manifold pressure with the use of the throttle plate creating a less dense overall charge, but at the same 14.7:1 AFR(up to a point of course). Even if you add a tiny bit of extra load, the throttle plate must be opened just a tad further to compensate. The AFR ratio stays the same but since there is a tiny bit more airflow there must be an equally tiny bit more fuel to support the ratio. What I'm trying to say is there is no "free" energy coming from the charging system, it will only add to the already parasitic load. BUT, I would guess that you would benefit by generating a certain amount of electricity during idle when the engine is doing nothing to propel you and sustaining it is just wasting energy. I could guess that the charging system already does this to a certain degree.

Diesels, on the other hand, have no throttle plate. They control output simply by the amount of fuel they inject. Diesels get their efficiency from idle and part throttle since there are no pumping losses from a throttle plate and they can operate at extremely lean mixtures.

Hybrids are efficient from the fact that the engine can be turned off when at a stoplight, braking can be used to charge the batteries(and extend the life of the pads), the engine can be kept at a more narrow and efficient rpm range, the electric motor can be solely used at low speeds, and if you recharge it via an outlet it is cheaper overall and the electricity was created more efficiently(most of which still by fossil fuels).

 

[Matt4g63]

since when is oxygen no flamable by itself? ummmmmmmmm.......

When was the last time you set air on fire?

A wise man once said don't piss in the wind.

A wiseman once told me, there is a reason why car manufactures aren't doing this right now... its because it doesn't work!

 

[casperfast]

here is another study i found interesting, gained 54% HOH Cells - Datsun 120Y

 

[Defiant]

I was on a submarine for a number of years and we had 2 oxygen generators. We split water and used the oxygen to breathe.

Would that have been a nuclear submarine? With a reactor that could power three cities? Yeh. Big deal. We used waste heat and vacuum to distill drinking water on the steamships, too. Not too tough to process enough sea water into drinking water for fifty people when your power plant's built to push a thousand-foot hole through the ocean.

Now the hydrogen we just pumped overboard. It's really not that complicated, the biggest problem we always had was not blowing up. You have O2 and H2, which both are extremely explosive.

Yes, you're lucky you didn't all just Hindenburg right there at 400 feet under.

I'm sure you can do it, the question is, do you really want to?

Uh...

And for all you guys that just pop off saying guys who believe this are morons,

It has nothing to do with being able to. The point is that it will cost you energy. You cannot derive any benefit in energy by using more than you're getting back.

get a life or shut up.

Mind if we take yours?

 

[Defiant]

here is another study i found interesting, gained 54% HOH Cells - Datsun 120Y

You
Are
Being
Suckered.​

Tellya what. Go buy the system. Build one. Steal one. Do whatever it takes to prove to yourself that this is not just bullshit, not just hoss-toss, not just pie-in-the-sky, but that it will not only not work, but that you're going to get your little tushie pincushioned by trying to track it down.

There's nothing to argue about this. It simply doesn't work.

Now, ignore and castigate me. But prove me wrong.

 

[the_mork]

You know whats funny, is I couldn't find anyone's name on that page, sure there was a company name, the name of the company trying to sell a hydrogen kit...but I couldn't find the name of anyone involved in the test and while I didn't read the entire process it seemed very un-scientific, "take the gains from hydrogen then lets muck about with the timing...but we don't need a gasoline baseline for other timing sets..." Also, any scientific study or experiment should have at its core a desire for the easiest possible reproducible results, using an old Datsun in untold condition with untold miles on an unknown motor does not make the experiment reproducible and btw any time I get a new toy it gets crappy gas mileage, because I'm playing with it, and if I do something thats going to increase the fuel mileage then it increases fuel mileage because I drive it nicely to see what gains I'm getting. In short this "study" is a bunch of hogwash, I don't want to be mean but do yourself a favor and look up the work gullible in the dictionary, did you know it isn't there?

 

[casperfast]

that was just an example i found. ill find out soon when my buddy does it to his evo. he has some funky design. this idea got him verry interested. his prototypes look pretty cool . i think the evo is an excellent platform to see if this is bull or not. the car is fast, powerfull, and most importantly...a gas HOG!

 

[DSMnOOb00]

I just saw this segment in my local news about this new product that will improve your gas mileage almost 50%!

what do you guys think? I did some reserch, and seems to work like it states, however how will this work in a turboed car like our eclipse gst/gsx


www.hydro4000.com

 

[interex]

I dunno if it works or not, here is a video of WPTV testing it on their station truck...

YouTube - Green Machine Solutions Inc.

 

[kewlguy]

then get it, dyno before and after it's put on and post the results. i'm putting too much money into my engine to be a pioneer. if it works i'll give you all the credit and kudos casper

 

[68442]

Wow, with all of this on the market how is there a oil crisis? Conspiracy? or just too stupid to market it? Same crap on the muscle car forums i visit. Please, setup and install it on your car and post the dyno results like suggested. Keep one eye open because the oil people are coming for you.

 

[Defiant]

ummmm, one thing i have to say about that video.....THERES YOUR FU(KING PROOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Casper, with all restraint, all it proves is that you're an idiot. There is no other explanation.

My apologies to all.

 

[wret]

They all have "proof"; the tornados, the magnets, the fuel vaporizers, the platinum vapors; and they all sound too good to be true. There are also many people with compelling "proof" that they were anally probed by aliens.

Secondly, your "proof" comes from people who are mathematically challenged. They reported a dismal starting mpg of 9.4 and an improved mpg of 23.2, an improvement of 61%. What the hell kind of math are they using? That's 147%! So what's the EPA estimate of highway fuel economy on a Suburban? 21 mpg. Do you know the EPA tests vehicles? On a dyno, and they subtract 10% for their "real world conditions" fudge factor. Um, 21 +10% = 23.1, suspiciously close to what they are getting with the $1200 Hydro-4000. So have you placed your order yet?

 

[casperfast]

no, im not buying anything. i was messing around in my kitchen, i made a generator and allmost blew myself up. im just gonna wait till my buddy has his perfected them have him make me one. we managed to power a cat/mitsubishi lpg forklift to run off hydrogen alone on his gizmo. ran just like normal. however the redline on most of thise is only 3500 rpm so i dont know how well it would work on a car yet. he's making one to work on his 383 powered s10. sould be cool

 

[the_mork]

I'm gonna pick my feet up here because with that video I feel like the shit is getting a little deep, 9.8 mpg? You've got to be kidding me, this truck was running a 318 which is the smaller brother to the the 360 that I had in my significantly larger dodge truck which managed an easy 14mpg (or better since I never really used it on the highway) if this number didn't make you skeptical to start with then there isn't much point in pointing out the rest of the complete crap these people reported.

 

[dynatos]

If you reach down and take hold of your socks, and pull really, really hard, you can actually lift yourself off the ground.
Or, you can power a sailboat by attaching a fan to the transom to fill the sail.

I pray it's only because you're young, and not that you're actually simple enough to be duped by these charlatans. Yes, we are making huge strides in efficiency -particularly in the world of storage batteries- and the processing powers of modern computing systems and their implementation in control systems is doing what used to be unbelievable things. But we are not on the verge of miraculous leaps that will render three-hundred and more years' of physical science investigation and discovery suddenly errant.

Besides, if any of this stuff worked, Big Oil would kill the inventors and smother their creations.

And where's the goddamned ceramic engines they were promising us in the seventies?

It's rumored Steve Meyers Steve Meyers was murdered for just such inventions. link

Also, if you look up the more efficient hydrogen generators, it isn't just electrolysis. When hookup 12volts straight to your pos/insulator/neg style plates in water, of course you will use a butt-load (scientific term there) of amperage just to perform the action.

The newer patents and techniques use pulses of electricity (20k, then reduce depending on required load). Another technique is to use radio waves to excite the molecules.


Obviously, you have to wade through the BS. If you believe it is a hoax, just imagine that it isn't - just for a second. Don't you think all these crappy companies would hop all over it a ruin the market with junky products just to make some money? I do.

If I found a way to drive my car 2000 miles on a box of twinkies i could start making prototypes 'n what not, and you'd see hundreds of "runyourcarontwinkies.com" all over the place selling crappy products that didn't work good and made people think it was impossible.

The only law of physics it's violating is from the 1870's about it taking 3 times the energy to break apart water. This isn't the same as converting mass into energy; so don't think we're trying to defy gravity or anything ;D

I would also encourage those that are skeptical to research zero point energy...

 

[Defiant]

It's worse than strut tower rust.

 

[wret]

Oh, I get it. Automakers, big-oil, the CIA and whomever else, are sponsoring hokey websites with unbelievable claims, faulty math and testing techniques, promoting devices straight from the Home Depot plumbing and electrical departments, just to make the average joe think that it's all quackery, all the while keeping the lid firmly sealed on the "real" hydrogen technology (and the 200 mpg carburetor). Smart.

I sure the hope they don't read these forums.

Oh, got to go. Someone's at the door. No! Wait! Stop! qtrgsb h>...

 

[TunaTalon]

I have never wasted keystrokes debating perceptual motion machines but this thread has gone on way too long. There's no such thing as free energy. Yes I'm still holding out hope to someday find free beer but all of the free energy products are scams. When I see an offer to increase my mileage by 60% my interest is not even piqued.

Conspiracy theories cut both ways. With the new CAFE standards passed into law the American auto companies will be spending millions on research and billions on retooling to improve the gas mileage of their products. And they have engineers and scientists who have dedicated their careers to the field.

The only law of physics it's violating is from the 1870's...

Do you mean the conservation of energy law, better known as the 1st Law of Thermodynamics? Conservation of energy is a fundamental concept of physics. That's why its known as the first law. Conservation of Energy

I would also encourage those that are skeptical to research zero point energy...

http://www.barbneal.com/wav/tvthemes/tzone03.wav

 

[GSX91]

+1 and the first law of thermodynamics only plays a small part of what they are implying. Its the second law of thermodynamics that is the biggest crusher to this theory of hydrogen supplements (energy always travels from a more "useful" for to a "less" useful form.
What this is implying is that a: energy necessary to refine oil- burning of gasoline to move the vehicle

is less efficient than energy required to refine oil- burning of gasoline to create energy needed to power alternator- energy needed to perform electrophoresis- energy needed to move hydrogen into the engine-energy needed to power the engine

Its just not logical.

Electric cars are not any more efficient than gas powered cars they just seem like it because to create electricity by processes other than burning gasoline is cheaper now. The processes to create that electricity also require a huge amount of energy.

If this was any threat at all to the oil companies they would have crushed the idea way before this like they did for the turbine powered cars of the 60s.
Chrysler turbine engines and cars

^ great idea having a car that could run on basically any combustable liquid but you don't see everyone rushing out to convert their cars into turbine powered. I really wish it could have taken off.

Sadly I don't know why you would take an extra step from converting your usable electrical energy to hydrogen it just makes it wasted potential between steps in the system.