how well would this perform? suggestions welcome!

[natertater]

I was thinking about doing a 1G build-up with a 2G head (should port match it if I plan on 1G intake) and was open to suggestions. The budget: 4500 including shipping. I was considering 264/272 or 272 HKS cams, overbore if necessary, about 8.5 or 8.8:1 forged pistons (which brand is mostly used and can withstand 20psi abuse?) The car I plan on purchasing has a larger fuel pump, so I would have to get 550cc injectors to make some decent power with 15-20 psi boost, so which brand is reliable? RC? Has anyone used the Fidanza modular flywheel which has a replacable face? I hope the near stock suspension would hold up to 400HP or so. Feel free to make any suggestions, but I would like to keep it within the budget. Fatherbubble has given advice, and would also like to thank him. Anyone out in socal also use showdown motorsports engines?

 

[stefanOst]

Probably money would be better spent on engine and fuel management rather then forged internals. If you are going to be running 15-20 psi, you probably don't really need to go forged, the stock internals should hold up ok, with some ARP headstuds. Better to spend money on a good fuel management, either maf-t or go for the gold and pick up DSMlink. That and a good tune and you should be ready to go.

All depends on what turbo you plan to employ, what your goals are, and whether or not you figure to exceed those goals in the future, however.

Good luck man!

 

[pj91gsx]

I wouldn't go out and spend at lot at first. You will definitely break you budget. If you looking for power you must look into tuning. Stock 6 bolt motors can hold 500 and some 600 hp on good tunes. JE are really good pistons. 4g63T parts are pretty good stuff. The valves are stainless steel. The 1g heads are better because they have bigger intake ports. If you plan on tuning, look to spend about 800 on tuning parts. The dsmlink and a wideband is a good setup. With 4500, I personally would build a stock 6 bolt engine with arp headstuds, cosmetic headgasket, 3 angle valve job, and maybe a ported and polished head.

 

[natertater]

i have learned that having a larger port doesnt mean always better, unless you are talkinb big block chevy heads, the 455 big chief or 454 rectangle ports. anyways, velocity is always better, look at the old school corvette head, the double humps. with a lot of porting, it barely outflows the newer vortec head with better springs, so i plan on using the 2g head. the larger port would benefit in power increase from a lot more boost, but with a straight shot and to the cylinder and better angles, it would be ok. plus i already have a 2g in the car that was blown up...either crank walk or he launched it too many times at 5-6000 rpm having fun. but i do appreciate the posts!! he has a socketed ecu, so i think the dsmlink would work nice with it. he also has a cable that can hook to a pda or laptop to log and reflash the ecu. and RRE can do a final tune when i get to socal. plus for this car to roll on the road, i would need the engine. so a stroker is out of the question. i could get a crank and shorter pistons later i suppose!

 

[AWD_DSM08]

The stock rods and pistons can handle that boost. I would go with full arp hardware, balance shafts elem, Tuning 750 injectors, fmic,harden piping, and new timing belt. Also do a full service flush trans and t-case, upgrade clutch and flywheel. Prothane mounts. just some decent stuff to replace to make shure everything is good to go

 

[natertater]

so a fairly stock 1g block will hold up to 20psi max? i think i will run 15-18 all the time, unless the components can handle it. so a reworked 2g head with port and polish and 272 cams with whatever turbo he has on there now would work nice? a wideband...hmm would have to look into that. thanks guys, and keep it coming! i have 4 days to buy this thing and get is sent on its way...

 

[natertater]

The stock rods and pistons can handle that boost. I would go with full arp hardware, balance shafts elem, Tuning 750 injectors, fmic,harden piping, and new timing belt. Also do a full service flush trans and t-case, upgrade clutch and flywheel. Prothane mounts. just some decent stuff to replace to make shure everything is good to go

oh yeah, it has full synthetic in the tranny and tcase (so he says) and also a 2100lb clutch..good to go there i presume


would 550cc's not be enough? i think the car has a 255lph pump. its not stock, so it should be fine for 92 octane with 550s at this desired power level? i seen a chart on RRE or Magnus site somewhere 20 mins ago...

 

[My1GLaser]

so a fairly stock 1g block will hold up to 20psi max? i think i will run 15-18 all the time, unless the components can handle it. so a reworked 2g head with port and polish and 272 cams with whatever turbo he has on there now would work nice? a wideband...hmm would have to look into that. thanks guys, and keep it coming! i have 4 days to buy this thing and get is sent on its way...

Yes a stock 6 bolt will hold around 450HP. 25psi easy. I would recommend ARP head studs, but an OEM composite HG will suffice.

I was running 24psi daily on an Evo 16g with a completely stock 6 bolt motor. And some run a 50 trim on the stock motor. (Ryan at import evolution for one...on a 2g 7bolt with 8.5:1 CR)

Invest in DSMLink if you want a logger & tuning device all in one that is very user friendly for $550. Add a WB and you are a driving dyno. If you get DSMLink then get at least 850 inj. I like FIC because they are disc type inj that I feel has a finer spray pattern for better fuel atomization. I had a set of PTE ball & seat inj that I tuned with for a while and noticed a gain from just switching to FIC...same boost, same everything. It just seemed to pull harder to redline than before and I datalog with DSMLink every time I drive, so I know I have actual data somewhere...

I have 272s with my 18g and I love them.

You won't want to stay at 15-18 psi for long if you have supporting mods. These damn cars f_ckin fly.

Also, I don't like the fidanza FW. IMO I would get the ACT streetlite.

 

[pj91gsx]

What dont you like about the fidanza flywheels? btw, natertater my motor did 30+ psi like 4 times with no tune at all and the motor was still good. I wouldn't recommend doing it. If I knew what was going on, I would have fixed the problem. They hold up.

 

[My1GLaser]

1. They are only 8 lbs so the motor loses too much inertia in between shifts and it can be grabby. Plus you have to launch at a higher rpm, which puts more strain on the drivetrain.

2. I am not a big fan of the replaceable friction surface with a bunch of screws holding it on. With quality control nowadays, it only takes 1 lazy ass who assembled the FW and it would be screwed. (pardon the pun)

3. Aluminum and steel have different rates of expansion from heat and I can see the friction surface warping or wearing uneven due to that.

I know people run them and probably don't have issues, but I like the Chromoly ACT streetlite FW, which weighs 11.8 lbs and has a little more inertia and none of the other issues.

I currently run the RRE FW which is a machined stock one. It weighs 14 lbs and is a little too heavy for my liking. Next time I am in there I am switching to an ACT FW. I ran one on my FWD and loved it...the perfect combination of weight and strength IMO.

 

[stefanOst]

It would be a good idea to also invest in some good gauges for monitoring the motor, wideband you had mentioned a few times is key, and an EGT gauge is nice to make sure you don't melt anything. Obviously a good vacuum/boost gauge as well is crucial.

 

[fatherbubble]

I was thinking about doing a 1G build-up with a 2G head (should port match it if I plan on 1G intake) and was open to suggestions. The budget: 4500 including shipping. I was considering 264/272 or 272 HKS cams, overbore if necessary, about 8.5 or 8.8:1 forged pistons (which brand is mostly used and can withstand 20psi abuse?) The car I plan on purchasing has a larger fuel pump, so I would have to get 550cc injectors to make some decent power with 15-20 psi boost, so which brand is reliable? RC? Has anyone used the Fidanza modular flywheel which has a replaceable face? I hope the near stock suspension would hold up to 400HP or so. Feel free to make any suggestions, but I would like to keep it within the budget. Fatherbubble has given advice, and would also like to thank him. Anyone out in social also use showdown motorsports engines?

Do a 1G head save you on port work the 2G heads need alot of port work to match the 1G. an if ## going to spend the money go with 272/272 HKS. A little lope in it but runs great. For injectors go with 850's for the same price as 550's or 950's for a few dollars more. FCI are real good an good prices Bill can set you up with everything there including a cool AEM Fuel Rail. That setup will be like mine an I'm planning on running 30lbs of boost when I upgrade my Bov. Thats the only thing I forgot to do.

I had the fidanza flywheel in my 7 bolt it was fast at spool up but no torque. Now the act i switched to is just as fast an has the torque you can really feel it.

fidanza flywheels ricer wear. ACT track proven.

 

[natertater]

alright, act flywheel it is. i also need to tally that wideband in, and the dsmlink. it has a egt sensor, boost sensor, and oil temp sensor with guages for all mounted on the steering column, just in front of the normal gauges. i have to act fast and get this freakin loan for 9k then. so 850's are the ones eh? i suppose i will email bill the final cut of products...but what to do with 2g parts? he can have them i suppose. i really dont want to suck gas from the pump, but i can always tune it down, plus this wont be a daily driver...but then again, if the GT dies i have another car. to make this right, i need the:
1) ACT 11lb'er flywheel
2) 850cc FCI injectors, or RC
3) dsmlink and wideband
4) showdown full out 1G build (should i have him balance and knife the crank?)
5) buy the car, and send it to cali before wed...also ship engine from here in P-cola to ohio asap!

 

[natertater]

another question, if i already have a 2g ecu, would the 2g dsmlink work with a complete 1g block? im not sure how that would work out with the electronics. kinda unsure about electronics all together with car. i know the science of it, but not flip flopping parts to make a frankenmotor work. thanks for all the help and input though guys, keep it going!!!

 

[My1GLaser]

another question, if i already have a 2g ecu, would the 2g dsmlink work with a complete 1g block? im not sure how that would work out with the electronics. kinda unsure about electronics all together with car. i know the science of it, but not flip flopping parts to make a frankenmotor work. thanks for all the help and input though guys, keep it going!!!

Yes the 2g ECU will work fine. It really has nothing to do with the motor, with the exception of the 2g timing curve being very weak if you are sticking with stock 1g compression ratio.

There are plenty of people with 6bolt swaps in a 2g running the 2g dsmlink version. There are even options in the program for inverting your CAS signal and other 6bolt swap specific crap I can't remember.

I wouldn't spend the money on knife-edging the crank. Maybe if you are trying to find a way to shave .2 sec off your 1/4 mile so you can break into 9s one day, but for the rest of us it really isn't necessary.

Balancing the rotating assembly is a good idea if you are using aftermarket rods/pistons, etc. But the crank is actually very well balanced from the factory and would be fine with stock components.

You won't suck gas too bad if you keep it out of boost, which is hard as hell to do. That really depends on the turbo and the timing you run in the lower rpms. (and of course how heavy your right foot is) I am running extremely aggressive timing curve below 4000 rpms and I start boosting very quick. (too quick for fuel economy, but fun as hell to drive)

 

[natertater]

so i wont be running massive fuel amounts thru the system until i hit more boost or what not? i really need to read that fuel injection book when im on deployment to understand how sfi and mpfi work...so i presume the injector only flows that much fuel if the impedance is set for it to open that much, otherwise it will flow like a stock, just a heck of a lot more at full throttle and load? interesting. so, the stock 1g cam sensor is better, but i will have to mimmick the crank sensor with it as well. hope this wont be a problem...even if it is, i have read its not that big of a deal. thanks again for all the help and input. hopefully i can make e6 while im out, this hobby of going fast costs too much!!!

 

[My1GLaser]

Correct. The ECU chooses the injector pulsewidth based on the airflow metered by the MAS and the load on the motor (boost or vac) and then chooses how long the inj chould be open based on the stock fuel map. It doesn't start richening the mixture considerably until you reach a certain boost. IIRC it is above 3 or 5psi, then the AFR starts to drop down pretty quick. So staying out of WOT and low in boost will keep the ECU in closed loop where it shoots for 14.7:1 AFR which is quite a bit more fuel efficient than the ~10:1 it shoots for in open loop.

The good thing about DSMLink is that it retains all the stock ECU maps and gives you the ability to modify them to your specific set-up. The same is true with the timing maps. It takes out all the bi*** work of mapping out an ECU from scratch.

No. The 2g crank sensor is superior to the 1g CAS. However, you will want the Black-top "hall effect" CAS for the 6-bolt swap. The other 1g varieties can cause misfire issues in a 2g from what I understand. They are around $50 used on the forum.

 

[fatherbubble]

alright, act flywheel it is. i also need to tally that wideband in, and the dsmlink. it has a egt sensor, boost sensor, and oil temp sensor with guages for all mounted on the steering column, just in front of the normal gauges. i have to act fast and get this freakin loan for 9k then. so 850's are the ones eh? i suppose i will email bill the final cut of products...but what to do with 2g parts? he can have them i suppose. i really dont want to suck gas from the pump, but i can always tune it down, plus this wont be a daily driver...but then again, if the GT dies i have another car. to make this right, i need the:
1) ACT 11lb'er flywheel
2) 850cc FCI injectors, or RC
3) dsmlink and wideband
4) showdown full out 1G build (should i have him balance and knife the crank?)
5) buy the car, and send it to cali before wed...also ship engine from here in P-cola to ohio asap!

Question 4 no I dont think you really need that unless your going for 1k HP an 11k RPM's
Question 3 DSMLink V2 2G one an I went with RRE Zeixtronic ZT-2 with EGT sensor an digital guage works great an looks great too. for mounting it you can get a Apexi afc mount works perfect.
Question 2 FCI more people use them here an no one complains. But i'f you ever want to go bigger get the 950's becuase they can be upgrader to 1200 or so.

 

[natertater]

roger that, plus they are half the price of RC for same flow it seems. ok oem balance is nice, no need for it, and 850cc is the way to go. this Wide Band Air Fuel Ratio Meter is the one eh? it keeps track of boost, egt, afr, vacuum, and what not. good deal, but i think there is an afr in the car, but wideband or not, i have to ask about this tomorrow. maybe i will just go to the bank and ask about a loan for 9k and have this bad daddy shipped, then call everyone up to get my stuff ordered and slapped together. maybe i can have it together and road ready before i leave in january.

 

[natertater]

Correct. The ECU chooses the injector pulsewidth based on the airflow metered by the MAS and the load on the motor (boost or vac) and then chooses how long the inj chould be open based on the stock fuel map. It doesn't start richening the mixture considerably until you reach a certain boost. IIRC it is above 3 or 5psi, then the AFR starts to drop down pretty quick. So staying out of WOT and low in boost will keep the ECU in closed loop where it shoots for 14.7:1 AFR which is quite a bit more fuel efficient than the ~10:1 it shoots for in open loop.

The good thing about DSMLink is that it retains all the stock ECU maps and gives you the ability to modify them to your specific set-up. The same is true with the timing maps. It takes out all the bi*** work of mapping out an ECU from scratch.

No. The 2g crank sensor is superior to the 1g CAS. However, you will want the Black-top "hall effect" CAS for the 6-bolt swap. The other 1g varieties can cause misfire issues in a 2g from what I understand. They are around $50 used on the forum.

will the crank sensor or trigger sill be used? can the 2g work on the 1g without grinding and major work? i know the 1g hall effect is nice, and works with either the piggyback cable from magnus or RRE, or i can hack the wires and splice. its only 70 bucks, and i wouldnt have to tape it all up, but then again, it is frankenmotor!!!

 

[fatherbubble]

Yea thats the one. You dont want to splice stuff if you got other options. Something might happen to the splice an it fails an then your engine goes to crap. I took a look at RC on there website. I didnt see the 850's an i found the 750's for like 70 each i think cant remember. I just glanced at them. Its the peak an hold one you need.

 

[natertater]

ok, so i went into some injector science and this is the "norm" i suppose with turbo motors...
you want about 80% duty cycle, .6 for the BSFC and input the desired hp. i also guesstimated that with 20 lbs of boost and 45psi fuel, it would need at least 65 to make my numbers, and i plugged these in here Fuel Injectors FLow Calculator - Fuelinjectorclinic to get a minimum injector size of 725. is there a way to reduce the duty cycle on these and use larger injectors? they can stay open less and still make power with the same psi on fuel pressure, or i can run lower pressures. is this the right science? or am i just used to 7.5-9 psi and running open jets at 85 and 92? dang the carb!!!!!


they wanted about 100 bucks a pop on their site for injector

 

[My1GLaser]

I would find a set of used inj. Either in the classifieds here or you can wait until you get access to the DSMLink forums if you plan on buying it. I just got a set of FIC 950s there for $200 shipped with very low mileage from a very reputable member. I have also had good luck here with used parts...I got my AEM WB for $150 about a year ago. New parts are overrated IMO, but some things should be purchased new. (Like tight tolerance engine internals.)

Just get 850s or higher to give you room to grow. Boost is addictive and you will want to go faster and faster. You will end up needing new inj with every major upgrade if you get just the right size for your current needs. DSMLink can control up to 1600cc inj, but I wouldn't get larger than 1150 unless you plan on 30+ psi on E-85, which I don't think you do.

As for the calculation of inj size: For comparison, I am running a FP 18g at 20 psi and FIC 650s at 43 psi fuel pressure shooting for 11:1 AFR. I am only seeing 75% duty cycle right now flowing about 40 lb/min airflow. I plan on 25 psi daily very soon and 28 psi on race days, which is the reason for buying the 950s...I am already out of headroom. You don't want over 80% duty cycle because the inj will be open too long and don't have enough time to fully close before it has to open again. That can lead to unstable AFR and unpredictable inj flow...possibly leading to knock.

 

[natertater]

so it is a good idea to go with the 850s even though i dont think i will use it all (now anyways) and i think i calculated right on that website by punching in numbers, and it came up with a duty cycle under 50% at 8000 rpms....a little off? that was with using 25psi boost and 65 psi fuel input (making up for the 25psi boost max ever used on stock internals)

 

[alex1090]

You mentioned in your first post that you hope your suspension holds up to 400hp. Your not gonna see 400 anything on 15-18 psi. And if you did have a 400hp car the suspension would hold up fine