How do these rod bearings look?

[gieri002]

I have about 100 miles and quite a bit of idle time on my fresh 2.3 stroker. I started hearing an ever so slight knocking sound and I decided I would be best off checking the rod bearings sooner than later if I didn't want to risk damaging my crank. My question is do these bearings look like they could have been causing the knock? Would it be worth pulling the main bearings? They seem fine to me and there are no scrapes on the crank that I am able to feel with my fingernail. The car ran excellent and had good oil pressure.

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[BogusSVO]

Not too bad.

How many miles on them?

Some small odd wear patters, and a bit of trash in them.

 

[gieri002]

Ah BogusSVO, just the guy I was hoping for. In your opinion, which I respect very much, would you put new bearings in since these are already out and are such a cheap part? Unfortunately I am a perfectionist and would really like this build to be as perfect as humanly possible. Also if anybody has any input on the knock I was experiencing I would love to hear it.

100 miles and maybe 2 hours of idle time after a hard break in.

 

[BogusSVO]

If you choose to replace them, check your clearances again.

 

[bastarddsm]

I'm not an expert, but some thing looks off to me. Why are they so polished? What brand/style are they?

My ACL race bearings out my motor after a season of more than 550whp, and tuning it 9k all the time have much less "polished" area than that.

 

[hotrodssnova]

Perhaps he had some detonation going on. The loose ones are the top rod bearing, and they take the brunt of the detonation force.

 

[My1GLaser]

What were your clearances and what viscosity oil were you running?

 

[gieri002]

I used Clevite 77's with .0004" added to both low and high limit as suggested by Clevite. I was not experiencing any sort of detonation and am unsure about the polish. I'm very confused about the knock I was experiencing, I do not have balance shafts and cannot find where it was coming from.

The oil was non synthetic 10w-30 (for break in of course).

 

[nfernotalon]

Thats bad imo thats only 100 miles imagine 500 or 1000 thats if you dont spin a bearing before then. If you already have knock I would definately take it apart and check clearances.

 

[JacksonAuto]

What kind of crank are you using and is it new or used? Same for the rods.

The wear in the center is indicative of excessive crush-fit of the bearing in the housing. I would torque up the rods without the bearings and measure the ID of the housing bore. I think the book spec is 1.8897-1.8905" but I can check that. Detonation could also contribute to that type of wear. I see a couple other things going on as well but will wait for photos of the main bearings to narrow down the cause.

I see evidence of a lot of contaminants that found their way into the engine. You'll want to be more careful upon reassembly to clean all of the parts more thoroughly and maintain a cleaner, dust free environment.

 

[gieri002]

What kind of crank are you using and is it new or used? Same for the rods.

The wear in the center is indicative of excessive crush-fit of the bearing in the housing. I would torque up the rods without the bearings and measure the ID of the housing bore. I think the book spec is 1.8897-1.8905" but I can check that. Detonation could also contribute to that type of wear. I see a couple other things going on as well but will wait for photos of the main bearings to narrow down the cause.

I see evidence of a lot of contaminants that found their way into the engine. You'll want to be more careful upon reassembly to clean all of the parts more thoroughly and maintain a cleaner, dust free environment.

That's the kind of data I was looking for! Thank you. I installed a used 2.4 crank and Crower connecting rods.

 

[gieri002]

Here are the mains, some contamination definitely made its way to the center bearing, the others looked just fine.

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[JacksonAuto]

The main bearing on the left shows early signs of a failure related to crank flex or an out-of-shape journal. Or it could be just dirt/crud. Hard to tell from the pics and only knowing part of the puzzle. I'd definitely have everything gone over with a fine-toothed comb.

 

[gieri002]

Agreed, I wonder how so much dirt got into here. The block was hot tanked and literally every part with oil running through it was brand new. Well, lesson learned I guess, Although I still don't see anything that would be causing the small knock I was hearing. The search continues.

 

[gieri002]

I took the engine out, platigaged the journals, inspected the crank for any scoring, and ordered some new bearings. When the bearings came in I carefully replaced all of the main/rod bearings with some new ACL race bearings. I started the car up and experienced the same exact knocking noise.

I'm lost, where the heck could this noise be coming from? I've inspected the timing assembly and everything looks great. I replaced the rear balance shaft with an oem stub and left the front balance shaft in (no belt obviously) so that the oil pressure wouldn't be raised. The knock seems to be coming from the top end and is audible at all rpms (although I cannot confirm this). My first thought was lifters, so I tossed some new 3g lifters in. No change. My oil pressure is great as well and the car runs perfect. Any ideas fellas?

 

[phunny]

Can you post a video?

 

[kchaazz]

Regarding the lifters, are the replacements brand new, or new-ish? Reason I ask is because I had the same noise issue youre having. I had 3G lifters that were several years old from a motor I used cheap oil in. I cleaned the lifters thouroughly before putting them into my new motor, and they made quite a racket, so I swapped them with another set of used, cleaned 3G lifters, and no change. Finally, I bought a brand new Topline set, and the noise is gone, but not until I drove the car gently for a few miles. Have you measured your oil pressure with an actual pressure gauge? I assume that your cylinder head has the "oil port mod" as well?

 

[gieri002]

Regarding the lifters, are the replacements brand new, or new-ish? Reason I ask is because I had the same noise issue youre having. I had 3G lifters that were several years old from a motor I used cheap oil in. I cleaned the lifters thouroughly before putting them into my new motor, and they made quite a racket, so I swapped them with another set of used, cleaned 3G lifters, and no change. Finally, I bought a brand new Topline set, and the noise is gone, but not until I drove the car gently for a few miles. Have you measured your oil pressure with an actual pressure gauge? I assume that your cylinder head has the "oil port mod" as well?

The lifters I installed were brand new topline lifters. I do appreciate the input though. I really thought the noise was just lifter tick too. It is very quiet at idle and is loudest at 1500-2000rpm. I'll try to get a video posted tonight. I've been reading though threads for hours and I've watched every dsm knock video I could find on youtube and cannot replicate the noise I'm hearing. When I rev the engine, the decel is where the noise is most apparent. It almost sounds like a cam lobe without any oil on it winding down (however they are all being properly lubricated).


As far as oil pressure goes I'm seeing about 12.5psi at idle and the max I see is 80ish while driving. I of course did the oil port mod as well.

Here is a video i took right before disassembling again (Yes, that is a t25 on a 2.3 stroker for break in ):

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I pulled the head last night and found everything to be in excellent condition. I don't see any weird wear and the crank spins perfectly smoothly without any seizing/weird noises.

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[JacksonAuto]

That thing sounds like a diesel engine. I'd check your a/f ratio and timing. Besides the TopLine lifters, what's been done to the cylinder head? In addition to the diesel noise it also sounds like a tremendous amount of valvetrain clatter.

 

[gieri002]

Haha the camera microphone really amplified the sound. It is no where near this bad in person. The afr is slightly off as this car is untuned. When I removed the timing belt last night as I was removing the head, I did line up the timing marks and they were spot on. I did not set the base timing with the 1g CAS since I was quite sure the car would be coming apart anyways due to the noise. It starts with a solid 14.7 then runs a bit more rich when it warms up. Do you really think this could have something to do with the noise?

The cylinder head was bought from the classifieds here on tuners. It was a fresh stock rebuild. I keep wanting to lean towards the cylinder head being the problem but I did toss a 17mm on the cam gears last night and spun them several times, everything seems to be normal. I'm running out of ideas and starting to regret doing the 2.3 build, 6 bolt swap, and awd swap all at the same time on my spyder.

 

[bryanwheat]

Sounds like the lifters aren't primed up well. Did you install them dry or did you pump oil in them than bleed them down? I've had brand new aftermarket lifters bad right out of the box before.

 

[YZFR1]

Sounds like lifter noise to me too.. definetly not afr or timing. If you cleaned and blead the lifters, even if they were primed, they will still sound funny for a little while after you start driving. Sometimes, they still sound funny afterwards, just not as bad.

I say if the motor runs fine, other than that, and you are not getting any metal in your oil filter. Just keep drivng it, while keeping a close eye and ear. Check your oil filter often, that will always tell the full story! I just cracked open about 4 filters within a 150 hard miles or so, also on a 2.3l.

 

[gieri002]

I bled them down using jafro's method. I bled them right out of the box, filled them with oil, then proceeded to bleed them one last time before installing them (without removing cams). That would be pretty crappy to get bad lifters new from the factory.

 

[kchaazz]

After replacing the lifters, did you just let it idle for a while, or did you try driving the car a bit? I usually drive gently, not exeeding 3000 rpm for a few minutes, and when I get home, shes all quieted down. The lower oil pressures at idle seem to greatly prolong the time it takes the lifters to fully fill with oil, in my experience.

 

[gieri002]

Sorry, I should have mentioned that. Yes, the 3g lifters have at least 50 miles on them!