How come no one seems to brag or be running Crane Cams?

[IceDragon]

How comes noone seems to brag or be running Crane Cam's. A few older mechanics I know and talk to have been telling me that they are the "top of the line". I see plenty of threads on HKS and BC's but I was just wondering why it seems no body runs or asks about the Crane Cams.

Also, I heard that the cranes increase the rate at which the spring goes down and springs back up and therefor is better for idle and dialy driving... specially when you are building up an N/T (same guys told me that, and older mechanics so I think they are applying their old small block knowledge to my lil' 4 banger.)

 

[DSM90AWD]

Prol because Crane JUST came out with cams for the 4G63 and 420A applications (years behind Crower / CompCams) and priced them 2x higher

Not to mention HK$ and Forced Performance cams have been proven over and over on the fastest DSMs for years and cost less. So suprise me it does not young jedi

 

[Defiant]

Careful talking cam profiles with smallblock people. They usually deal with flat tappets, and don't always grasp the intricacies and detail differences between a V-8's acceleration issues and the geometry involved with rocker followers.

 

[IceDragon]

well Defiant, it's just that I want to stay N/T and everytime I talk to a true dsm'er they tell me to just turbo it or buy a turbo DSM.... So I was wondering about what cams would be good for staying N/T.

 

[drivemusicnow]

... stay N/t, but make power... That means buying a larger engine.

I don't mean to be an ass, but to make power, you have to have air go through the motor. To make a LOT of power you have to get a LOT of air to go through the motor. This means large displacement, forced induction, or nitrous. Without those 3, you really won't ever make that much power. I'd say getting 240hp out of a 2.0 liter is about as good as I would expect is possible. it would also be a damn expensive 240 hp.

Now if you're just looking at making your non turbo motor a bit more peppy, than yes, matching a header to a cam profile is extremely important, but you're pretty much going to be doing that all alone. Turbo cams are not the best option for N/T induction, and you'll have to be buying new or getting regrinds custom made. I really don't know of anyone that has experimented down that path though.

 

[IceDragon]

I know one guy put 264's into his N/T and he said it really breathed better... but I've noticed that the cams in a turbo are usally the same grind like 248/248 or a smaller intake grind like 264/272's where as the stock n/t's are 256/248's and so are most cam profile's i've found for other n/t motors. So it seems better on an N/T to have a slightly larger intake than exhaust cam for duration... so I was thinking, what if I ran a 272/264 or even a cam that I might be able to find that has only a slightly larger intake than exhaust duration. Just a thought, but I don't have tons of money to waste on it, but I'd love to get a BIT more pep. I have just about all the bolt on's, and I'd like to get it pretty all well and nice before getting it tuned completely.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

I know one guy put 264's into his N/T and he said it really breathed better... but I've noticed that the cams in a turbo are usally the same grind like 248/248 or a smaller intake grind like 264/272's where as the stock n/t's are 256/248's and so are most cam profile's i've found for other n/t motors. So it seems better on an N/T to have a slightly larger intake than exhaust cam for duration... so I was thinking, what if I ran a 272/264 or even a cam that I might be able to find that has only a slightly larger intake than exhaust duration. Just a thought, but I don't have tons of money to waste on it, but I'd love to get a BIT more pep. I have just about all the bolt on's, and I'd like to get it pretty all well and nice before getting it tuned completely.

In regards to your theory, you may want to try the Web Cams Street Grind... They are 272 Intake and 254 Exhaust. You can usually find them for around $225-275 on ebay. They are on there occasionally. I just sold mine for $250.

IMO it seems as if you could turbocharge your car for pretty cheap, using stock parts. Why do you want to go this N/A route? You are going to end up spending more money and going alot slower.

 

[Syndicate]

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On my second build so not sure how they will perform , You need to keep in mind people tend to get offensive about the products they purchase . Crane has been along for a long time and they are proven in the 8 cyl area so why not the 4 cyl? , I am sure if someone like shep etc had them people would be saying they are the best etc.

Ive seen the cams built and i know ( like many parts for the most part come from the same place and relabel them ) that crane builds their own cams and does extensive r&d . With commons being 264 272 etc it made me wonder why crane would have numbers that arent as common . Granted the fp cams etc are fantastic and proven , chances are unless crane sponsers someone in our "area" of intrest you will continue to see "go with so and so" .

As others have stated you should really lean towards turbo charging your car versus worrying about cams etc at this point since you will get better gains for a cheaper amount of money.

For my cams and if they perform , I have nothing/no one to compare my engine too . I hope one day at a dyno day I can put my cams in someone elses car or theirs in mine to see ( alough due to my larger air intake my cams might be a little to small now and I probably would get performance gains from a larger cam ) at the valve the gross lift tends to be higher on crane though from my understanding .

Also I was unable to find full sheet specs on crower , comp etc cams . just "quickies"

The price factor hurts though , like 90awd said .


I just bought mine really though because of the nifty coating that gives it the copper look . I could care less about performance . ( cant wait till i get my 22" led wheels so i can make them say LoL )

 

[Syndicate]

its not letting me edit .. I was going to say alot of people dont know what cams brent rau is using alough im sure its crane cams .

 

[IceDragon]

I'd like to keep it N/T because honda N/T's are getting more than use out of 1.6 non Vtec's and shit with just a few mods. So I want to be able to beat them and be able to say, nah, I ain't turbo. Also, as I said, do you think it would be a good idea to go with a larger intake cam than exhaust cam. I saw about you saying the webcam's combo, I may just go that route, it seems the smart way I believe, if noone else makes another grind that is just like that. Thanks for all this input guys.

 

[01QuadDak]

The problem with N/A is that yo uare gonna spen a crapload more money and get less performance.
I spent close to 2 grand on my truck, to get 50 measely HP, when i could have spend 2.5 or 3 grand and gotten close to 100 more horses with a supercharger.
Anoher thing, is that for N/A performance, you need COMPRESSION. Like 10.5 to 1 or even 11.1. For the higher compression you need the higher octane gas.
For the same amount of money you are going to put into the block and related components(or even less$), for custom pistons to get the compression you need, to the fuel system, and the computer tuning, you can make the same amount of HP, if not more, with a turbo.
Going N/A over turbo, specially on a car with parts so available and relativly cheap, is pretty stubborn, in my opinion.
With that being said, good luck on you project, I know how you feel on building something different from the rest of the crowd.

 

[Defiant]

, I am sure if someone like shep etc had them people would be saying they are the best etc.

Perhaps it would be wise to ask why Shep doesn't use them.

Although the answer's liable to be "sponsorship".

Crane's pulling in a fine crop from the fields they've chosen. They may see no need to plow ground that others are already tilling.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

I'd like to keep it N/T because honda N/T's are getting more than use out of 1.6 non Vtec's and shit with just a few mods. So I want to be able to beat them and be able to say, nah, I ain't turbo. Also, as I said, do you think it would be a good idea to go with a larger intake cam than exhaust cam. I saw about you saying the webcam's combo, I may just go that route, it seems the smart way I believe, if noone else makes another grind that is just like that. Thanks for all this input guys.

How much are they getting out of a 1.6 non-vtec? NOT MUCH! Also , a CRX weighs in at about 2100lbs before you strip it, what is your DSM, 3100? Let me tell you something, I come from the Honda camp. With a 1.6 DOCH VTEC (b16a) with every bolt on out there including custom spec cams, dual valve springs, TI retainers, Hondata ECU 310cc injectors, shaved head, 11.1:1 comp. and all the bolt-ons I made 176whp and the Honda guys think that is bad ass! Most 1.6 DOCH VTEC's make about 135-140 whp and 98-100 w TQ, that is with intake and exhaust. Now you referred to the 1.6 non vtec witch would be either a ZC (1.6 DOCH) or a D16 (1.6 SOCH), those 2 motor will make less power then I stated above.

The Hondas have short gearing, high compression and low weight.
Your car has lots of weight, 9.1:1 comp. and fuel economy gearing

Turbocharge it, beat a Type-R!

 

[Raph]

I'd like to keep it N/T because honda N/T's are getting more than use out of 1.6 non Vtec's and shit with just a few mods. So I want to be able to beat them and be able to say, nah, I ain't turbo. Also, as I said, do you think it would be a good idea to go with a larger intake cam than exhaust cam. I saw about you saying the webcam's combo, I may just go that route, it seems the smart way I believe, if noone else makes another grind that is just like that. Thanks for all this input guys.

well,the euro n/ts had 10.5 compression and made 150hp , the cams were differnt,..i have a spare euro head and cams, i can let you have the cams if you want

but, the 4g63 was a long stroke(barely a long stroke..but it is..88 stroke vs 85 bore) engine..it doesnt like revs ..ie.. its not build material..unless you go itb and crazy cams and springs..8500 rpm..more and youll need an ignition setup too..

i know people wo went all motor..then went big laggy turbo and never looked back..

the 4g92 1.6 mivecs were short stroke rpm monsters.. thats nt build stuff .. (you wont find a used one under 1500,plus you need the mivec ecu etc ..another 500..too much work.)

the 4g93 dohcs ind the colt gtis were more revfriendly than the 4g63 dohcs..(they also made 150hp)


id turbo your car and gget it done with.

 

[delta448]

Also , a CRX weighs in at about 2100lbs before you strip it, what is your DSM, 3100?

Maybe 3100 without the driver, spare tire and with only a half tank of gas.

...Most 1.6 DOCH VTEC's make about... ...either a ZC (1.6 DOCH) or a D16 (1.6 SOCH), ...

Wow, they found a way to put heads on over cams? -kidding dude, honest mistake.

Turbocharge it, beat a Type-R!

Turbocharge it, Beat V8's... -and laugh at the honda boys.

 

[IceDragon]

Well my plan is to stay N/T... I want to use a stroker crank, daul valve springs, eliminate my balance shafts, and raise my compression, but not 100% sure how far. I also know I want to run a big set of cam's for power up to 7500 - 8000. All you're inputs so far have been very very helpful and I appreciate it all. I want to stand out from your normal DSM'ers and run it this way. But I know that I want to run all of this to get it READY for a turbo... but in the mean time, still make some nice N/T power. So I would really appreciate less of the "Go turbo" stuff, as I plan to, and more of the "how to build up a nice engine" stuff.

 

[Syndicate]

Well we are just trying to save you the head ache man thats all . Its your money you can do what you wish ( its very easy togo turbo since you already have a 4g63 )

They are just not good motors for N/A horsepower ( stock and bolt ons fine but internal it doesnt make much sense ) .

It will cost you around 4k to get the hp of a bone stock 4g63t ? when you could spend that 4k and have quicker response , higher top end etc , and more HP than a stock sti or evo and also being a good daily driver .

Building a performance N/A requires different cams etc etc then you would for a turbo .


Like I said though , if thats the course you are on go ahead and do it we are just advising you its been done and in most cases people ended up being upset because their built 4g63 was getting beat by hondas with a few bolt ons .

 

[danny_l_2005]

Stroker and 8Krpms will not be so friendly

 

[IceDragon]

I mostly want the stroker for the off the line... its a 2.3 crank I want to use, but I want to build up my motor to be a good N/T, but sort of prepare it for a turbo. Kind of like a turbo build up without the turbo. My friend is going to help me turbo my car, the only factor is that I really don't want to run a turbo on a tired 9:1 engine and on my N/T tranny as I know they are prone to not being able to handle the power.

P.S. - I'd really like to go with a crower stroker kit, 102mm stroke but still unsure of the compression I'd like to have since I'd like to go turbo later, the lowest I can get is 9.0:1 cr in the kit, so maybe that is all I should go with to be safe?

 

[delta448]

Well we are just trying to save you the head ache man thats all . Its your money you can do what you wish ( its very easy togo turbo since you already have a 4g63 )...
...It will cost you around 4k to get the hp of a bone stock 4g63t ? when you could spend that 4k and have quicker response , higher top end etc , and more HP than a stock sti or evo and also being a good daily driver .
...Building a performance N/A requires different cams etc etc then you would for a turbo .

The main thing I want to point out is what Syndicate said about different engine parts for N/A. This will be a huge waste for you to invest in if you plan to go turbo eventually. The cost will be high and will mostly be completely wasted when you go turbo.

The stroker crank is great for stump-puller type turbo power, but kinda bad for 8000+rpm N/A reliability. Even the stock 4G63 doesn't really have optimal dimensions for high revs, but you can get away with it if you build the valvetrain. Custom high compression pistons (like 11:1-12:1), -which are going to be almost impossible to find unless you pay out the butt for a one-off set-, will be necessary for N/A power but are a huge hinderance when you add the turbo because it will be impossible to run much boost. The best cams for N/A power will likely be a little off for a turboed stroker. An expensive high flowing tubular header will have to be replaced by a turbo flanged exhaust manifold in order to go turbo. Your new intake will have to be replaced with one that fits the space and is set up for the turbo system.

So, basically as you see, there is nothing that relates to a good N/A engine build that can be carried over to a turbo setup, except maybe for head work and porting.

 

[Syndicate]

Well do a destroker then . 2.1 10:1 compression , not really sure how much the stroker helps you off the line , you are already building/spooling boost before you launch anyway . Now it might help you alot more from a roll to spool the turbo quicker .

Safe with our cars is such a relative term , depends how much psi you plan on running .


Is this car your daily driver? , I have a 2.3 and I might get better torque numbers on the dyno thats basically it .. Just more power towards breaking your drive line . And not as fun to drive as my original 2.0 with a 16g .

As for secondary cranks to a new "oem" 4g64 , Thats another touchy subject .. I have never had luck with reman'd cranks and alot of decent engine builders will tell you to stay away from them since for whatever reason our cranks dislike being man handled . As for the aftermarket ones , dont know never tried them .

Good luck with your choice there are ALOT of them now . And opinions of what you should do are going to vary from one person to the next. besides for you to turbo your car hehehe. . ( 1g rods , 2g pistons , 16g and all the other goodies you need will cost you the same price of you going todo a stroker without a turbo )

 

[Quasimondo]

The thing about going n/a is that no one part alone make power. Unlike forced induction engines where most issues can be resolved with the turn of the boost knob (to a point), everything you do with a n/a engine has to work with everything else. Cams will work, but only if the cylinder head, headers, and intake manifold are picked to work with those cams. It's all about having the right components, sort of like an orchestra. If one item is out of place, then it'll all fall flat.

Also, I heard that the cranes increase the rate at which the spring goes down and springs back up and therefor is better for idle and dialy driving... specially when you are building up an N/T (same guys told me that, and older mechanics so I think they are applying their old small block knowledge to my lil' 4 banger.)

One thing I've learned is that a lot of stuff that works for old SBC's, etc., will not apply to small twin-cam four banger engines. They've had to deal with poor head designs, half the number of valves, and other things that you'll never encounter with a 4G63. This isn't to say that you should disregard what they tell you, just keep in mind that the stuff they know may not work with your engine.

I think for you the best book you can pick up is Four Stroke Performance Tuning by Graham Bell. He discusses everything from intakes to headers to cylinder heads to cams, and if you're serious about going n/a, you'll see that it takes more than just slapping on high-dollar parts to get serious power out of an all motor engine.

 

[GVR4592]

Perhaps it would be wise to ask why Shep doesn't use them.

He used them all of last season and from what I hear he is going to continue to use them next season.

 

[GVR4592]

Stroker and 8Krpms will not be so friendly

That's a myth, you can rev the piss out of a stroker if you build it right.

 

[IceDragon]

I'd like to run a 2.3 crank with the stock bore, maybe 8.8:1 or so, get rid of them balance shafts, run some good rods, and a set of dks 272's unless... unless someone knows of a better set of cam's for a stroker even though it will still only be stock bore.

The valvetrain will be a nice set of cams, ffwdconnection's lo-rider seats with their daul spring package, and a bit of head work from a local machine shop... but I am still stumped as to which intake manifold I'd like to run.

P.S. - By saying I am getting my car ready for a turbo, I am doing the little things, increasing the catback to 2.5inch, trying to find a nice intake manifold, fuel rail, fuel pressure regulator, better fuel pump... All things that my little baby engine will like to have until it is a grown turbo engine.... than eventually... a blown turbo engine cause I will most likely beat the crap out of it... And I'd like to be able to have an engine where... if i blow my turbo, i can just bypass it easily and still have a really nice engine until I raise funds to upgrade to a better turbo than I blew.