home made sheet metal intake

[H@xtGSX]

I'm sure we are all in on a prototype also. Having you weld it together will make it look very professional. I could run it through my polishing bench too and make it a show piece. If it works well, we'll be making more, I'm sure.

Now we just need access to a dyno. I can't help with that. I'm a 3 hour drive in any direction from a city big enough to have a dyno, so I wouldn't be a good choice.

One last thing I need is what size intake tubing would be the average for the main trunk. I run 2.25" for a bit more velocity in the low end. 2.5" seems to be what most aftermarket intercooler pipe is. The really big turbo guys running GM maf blow through systems run 3" to match the sensor. I am thinking, for the sake of turbulence reduction after the throttle body, 3" pipe. If you have a reason to go down to 2.5", I can do that also, but after the 1st pipe fork I'm thinking 2" then 1.25 or 1.5" final runners into the head. Sound ok?

 

[sparky1987]

If I had a fwd I could probably get some dyno time here at work but my car is an awd car and our dyno is just 2wd. And the only other car that I know the owner I just helped him do the awd swap. So I could probably get some reasonably priced dyno time.

 

[H@xtGSX]

Hmm... I wonder how bad the reading would get skewed if you just disconnected the rear drive shaft... I haven't ever tried to run my AWD as a FWD or RWD, but I know people do it.

 

[sparky1987]

I have known people to do it but I think it would be best to do it as fwd depending on the power transfer and what ratio it is on the 1g im not sure what it is. If its 50/50 60/40 or what.

 

[H@xtGSX]

Should be 50/50 from my understanding... I am not sure on a 1g though.

 

[turboglenn]

well, if you can core u dyno time i might be able to get a VCE to toss your way, a friend has onei can either buy or borrow, and just have you return it to me after dyno testing is done. I want it just for emergencies in case i blow the rear or soething

 

[sparky1987]

How does that work exactly im sure vce stands for viscous coupler eliminator. What do you do just pop the tcase apart and put this in its place?

 

[turboglenn]

You pop the end off the trans, remove 5th and some other easy pieces you can do with trans in the car, remove the viscous Coupler and install the eliminator, this one looks like a socket that's splined for a trans instead of hexed for a bolt on both ends. I'm not sure if you use that ball retaining thing with it or not though, i would imagine so. Then you re-assemble trans and it's like having a welded center diff as far as making the car bind the driveline in tight areas/parking lots, but with out the added strength welding the CD gives you. Mainly for dyno use so you can just drop the driveshaft and use a spare yoke to keep it's fluid in or drop the t-case all together and be just FWD

 

[H@xtGSX]

<img src="http://www.dsmtuners.com/gallery/files/1/3/0/6/8/7/intake.jpeg" alt="Intake" />

I have a finite element analysis program i tested this geometry on via fluid dynamic flow simulation and it is a LOT more efficient... it'll fit with the old intake gone, but just barely. might even have to move the emissions crap off the firewall if you still have it. Flow wise though, it should be very fast in comparison to the stock unit. It isn't ideal yet, by any means, but it gives you an idea of one way to do this... the other way would be a progressive wrap over, like an exhaust header, just longer and from a perpendicular approach.

Also, I only used long radius bends to minimize the angle change over distance as much as possible. This can be tightened up and made smaller. I also used only 90 and 45 degree angles except in the 2" spread, to make shop fabrication as simple as possible. 30 degree changes at the forks would be better. There's a bunch of tweaks that are needed, but it's a start. The real question is if the flow is faster and more laminar, will that prove to be more efficient vs. a magnus style intake... I don't have a clue other than flow charateristics, and in that aspect, this piece can provide much higher speeds at the same volume. That may be negated by the extra travel distance though.

 

[turboglenn]

H@tgsx, very nice rendering there and totally different idea than i came up with in my 2-3 mental images and one sketch

The one thing i question is does that allow for the airconditioning to remain intact? I'm also guessing that's for a 2g engine bay?

My ideas/drawing are more with a larger main plenum area, with longer individual runners i wonder how they'd compare if i gave you a sketch you think you could render it an analyze themto compare?

OH DAMN: just realized this whole thread starts with "1G" and i'm asking about the 2g engine bay

also, Sparky, did you ever install and test the original intake you built in this thread? i'd love to hear how it did..

 

[H@xtGSX]

I don't know if it'll allow the compressor to remain or not. That's an 10" dip total from the bottom of the runners, so it'll be close to hitting bottom in this form. It is based on my engine bay, so yes, 2g dimensions. I'm guessing the 1g dimensions aren't as forgiving. Like i said, this can be tightened up, and is just a conceptual to get this going. The fluid simulation shows the velocity really jumps in those 1.5" runners and would absolutely ram air down the head pretty hard, so it's an improvement, even if it's kind of weird looking. I have a feeling this thing would make TONS of torque but I have no idea where in the upper rpms it'd start dropping off. I would love it, because most of my driving is lower end and I don't usually push over 5000 before I shift normally.

Actually... I'm not sure this would allow room for the STARTER... ... oops.

As for rendering a sketch, if you can draw it, I can too in autocad. No problem.

I also found a calculator online for determining velocity stack and runner length for a particular engine, and from what it said, 20 3/8" runners would peak torque around 3750 rpm with 262s and 8 phase harmonic pulse use. Basically, 22" might be really bottom heavy... but then so would this design, so it's dependant on application. Personally, I want to maximize street rpms from 3 to 5k, because it just makes daily driving more fun... Track wise, I think something shorter and fatter would be better for top end flow.

 

[silicosys4]

I like the thought process going into the manifold mocked up above. Its my understanding however, that an intake manifold works best if it incorporates a "reservior" that provides charge immediately upon opening the throttle. It looks like while this manifold would flow very well at high volumes, that streetability would be low because of a lack of throttle response, and unless you were in positive boost it would kill performance by being constrictive.

 

[DSM_love_GST]

It doesn't look impossible. I think I should go buy the tools and give it a shot!

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I think the starter is even higher than that. Where mine sits though, Id be worried about the subframe .

 

[H@xtGSX]

That is very likely. I would agree that your estimation of it is probably fairly likely. The thought I'm holding onto right now though is use of the main pipe itself as an inline plenum... it may be a totally crackpot idea, but flow wise it makes sense to me.

Yes, this design type will be banging off the bottom of the engine bay, for sure.

 

[turboglenn]

Yea, there's some things that might be in the way on that designbut i'm sure it could easily be tweaked and bent around them or angled a slight bit to clear completely. I'll re-draw my paper idea and scan it as i would take all night to make it in Alibre design and get it up as a pic, but i was thinking along the lines of being no lower than a cyclone would go, but possibly being very damn close to hood fitment being an issue with the plenum running like most SMIM's do and having Four runners off it snaking around to their ports (looking similar to a long equal length turbo header you often see fabbed from weld el's) The plenum/collector i think provides enough for transitional gasping to be handled ifsized right though.

Thing is i'm sure an engineer has done this somewhere before for some automaker adn i swaer i've seen pics on some sporty car possibly older formula style from say 1930's - 1950's erra??

I'm in this eithr way and although sparky seems to be going to build this one i'm gonna try and buld my own if materials can be had cheaply enough (just wondering what i'll have to do to track down some 4-5" ID 6061/5052 AL in a T6 state with wall thickness in the .090 to .125 (ratherhave the thicker stuff honestly) but needing only 2-3 feet of it willbe hard to find and buying a 20 foot length which is my easiest way to get from my suppliers that can get whatever i want with one call, but i don't need 20 damn feet for the minimum order

Then i need to get at least 10 foot of 1.5 DOM or ID for runners..at least i already have milled my flange and tested it to be spot on!

 

[sparky1987]

Turboglenn I didn't get my first manifold tested yet. But I do have a few headed out to be tested on different setups. So that way I can see how it reacts with what. I have had my car running a little bit but the gremlins of my 20 year old monster are coming out. So im fighting some issues right now with a few things and im saving up for link to be able to tune my setup. Oh glen there's a place here in ohio that I get alot of materials from www.themetalstore.com they're pretty reasonable.

H@xtgsx that's a gnarly design im kinda curious how that would work out and fit.

 

[H@xtGSX]

Build it (glenn)! The more variation we actually make a test, the more we will know about how it truly performs. Don't slow down for any of us. Besides, sparky has to show us a finished and installed manifold design we already know works well. I am more interested in that short term, because it looks promising.

This theoretical stuff is going to go on for a while anyway. That piece is close to finished.

 

[DSM_love_GST]

Edit*
I was also thinking of the inline plenum. since im at work, I cant draw much up.

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Im buying one of Sparky's intakes. I will be testing it too!
$300 for a custom intake mani is awesome!
You guys should hit him up!

 

[simple jake]

Wow I'm so glad that you guys are putting these ideas up here! I also had some ideas very similar to DSM_love_GST's design. I really wish I could weld aluminum to do these projects. I would really love a long runner IM design to keep velocity up and really get some good low end torque for daily driving. I would definitely be buying a long runner manifold if you guys tested it and decided to sell them. $300 is awesome for a good working, high quality manifold!

 

[H@xtGSX]

$300 is great, considering I don't think you will find anyone at any of the bigger companies that will weld better than what sparky has shown us. It's very obvious he knows his trade, so quality wise I don't think you'd have anything to worry about.

 

[ed1380]

That's a crazy manifold!! But I like it

 

[turboglenn]

Build it! The more variation we actually make a test, the more we will know about how it truly performs. Don't slow down for any of us. Besides, sparky has to show us a finished and installed manifold design we already know works well. I am more interested in that short term, because it looks promising.

This theoretical stuff is going to go on for a while anyway. That piece is close to finished.

OH I plan to, even if only for my use at this point i'm on a mission. sparky's other piece is a beautiful manifold, I wouldn't mind trying one out myself

 

[sparky1987]

H@xtgsx-im hopeing to have some sort of test numbers soon on my updated original design. I have stuck with a few changes that I feel will work the best. Im sticking with the port shaped runners to allow for unrestricted flow or major disruptions in flow by transfering from round to rectangle. Now if I could do a cast setup the transition would be almost invisible. but im no bazzilionaire so ill stick to what I can do and what I do best.

Thanks again for all the compliments on my work guys. I definetly can't wait to attempt this prototype it should definetly reshape we think about how this stuff works.

I can't wait to hear about how my manifold performs. That's the biggest thing I am waiting on before I go crazy with building and becoming a vendor which is my ultimate goal.

 

[H@xtGSX]

H@xtgsx-im hopeing to have some sort of test numbers soon on my updated original design. I have stuck with a few changes that I feel will work the best. Im sticking with the port shaped runners to allow for unrestricted flow or major disruptions in flow by transfering from round to rectangle. Now if I could do a cast setup the transition would be almost invisible. but im no bazzilionaire so ill stick to what I can do and what I do best.

Thanks again for all the compliments on my work guys. I definetly can't wait to attempt this prototype it should definetly reshape we think about how this stuff works.

I can't wait to hear about how my manifold performs. That's the biggest thing I am waiting on before I go crazy with building and becoming a vendor which is my ultimate goal.

This is lucky we have as wide a skill set of people looking at this now. My mother is a professional sculpter, and has had many large bronze pieces cast up at the Shidoni Foundry in Santa Fe. I have worked on detailed bronze casting molds 100x more complex than casting a manifold. I can cast aluminum in my backyard! It's easy because aluminum melts at so low a temp. I can do sand casting anytime... Though I need a lot of kerosene to do anything huge, but an intake isn't huge. The way I would do it would be in 2 halves that had each side of the manifold in relief. Those would then have to be gas welded together if I did it, or Sparky could get some 80xx wire and sink a deep penetration weld into the casting to join them.

The main concern I have with cast aluminum as an intake is durability. Look how thick the head is, and just how easy it is to mess it up. Cast aluminum is not tough stuff, and anything like this would have to be THICK.

 

[turboglenn]

Hell, if the casting is fairly clean and there wasn't a bunch of contaminants in your sand (especially petroleum based) I would trust the weld of a cast manifold probably more than the rest of the casting, just out of fear of impurities or change in density or pockets of air causing a weak spot but If you can cast some 3/8ths thick walls that are decently conistant and sturdy I could weld them up real nice.. what makes you choose 80xx series rod for cast though?

When i TIG cast i use 4043 and get great results, 5XXX series isn't as good though, but it does "wet-up" easier for beginners on solid aluminum pieces and doesn't turn black when anodized..