HELP! Three blown 14b's in 500 miles!!!!

[Sk8er07999]

Ok, I bought the car with the 14b on it and it ran great for a few months. Had one track day it was fine then that night I went out and messed around with a mustang on the street and thats when it blew. This one had tons of shaft play(like half an inch) and just smoked like crazy. So I got another one from a friend for 100 bucks off his parts car. We put it on and it lasts about an hour and then blows again while we are out messing around. Well I took it off and looked at it and this one just completely self distructed. The bolt that holds on the compressor wheel was laying in the intake pipe. The turbine wheel was stuck in O2 housingand the shaft was sheared completely off the back of the turbine wheel. The shaft or the bearing must have flown out and hit the O2 sensor because it's all bashed up. I found the bearing in my muffler but the shaft is missing. So this turbo I don't know maybe the bolt on the compressor just backed off some how and led to the complete distruction of the rest of the turbo. Well now I am on to the third 14b. This one lasted alot longer then the second one. I put about 100 miles on it in one day and it was boosting fine all day long and pulled hard. Well this time I went to launch off a light and it pulled really hard then at about 5k I heard a pop. I though I might have blown an intercooler pipe of but nope nothin. I took off the intake pipe and the turbo does not spin unless you rev it up. Yet it spins freely with your fingers and has NO shaft play nor does it smoke at all. But I think I found pieces of what might be the turbine wheel fins in my exhaust! What the hell is cause this! Could it be compressor surge! My Type-s is too tight and it does make the flutter sound like compressor surge does but would that causet this problem. Also, it can't be a restriction in the oil feed line because I have used a different one all three times. I inspected the coolant feed/return line too and oil drain line and there is no clogs I even cleaned them all up before the third install and it still F'd up! What's the deal! Any help you guys may have would be great. Thanks in advance, Kevin. Oh yeah and the 1st turbo was ran at 18 psi. 2nd was ran at about 15 maybe lower when it self destructed, and the third was ran at around 20 for a very short time when it just stopped working.

 

[TSIfreek]

Sound to me that you have a oil delivery problem. What are you using for a oil inlet line??? Stock or braided line going to the filter housing?? You maybe using unfiltered oil from the filter housing if you are not using the right port. Some how you are not getting oil to the turbo bearings.

 

[TSIfreek]

Try putting a stock BOV with stock pipeing back on if you find nothing wrong with the oiling system

 

[HighPsi92GST]

maybe you just keep buying junk turbos

 

[GriffLaserRS]

Its a good idea to let the engine spin a few cranks with out turning it over when installing a turbo to get oil in the lines. Just pull the plug wires out and turn the key a few times. Also crank the engine with the oil lines unhooked to see if oil is flowing steady.

 

[Sk8er07999]

TSIfreek, I would have suspected that too but I have used a different oil feed line (from the head) both times I installed. I don't think you could blame oil starvation on the last tubro failure either. It still spins perfectly (by hand) and has zero shaft play, nor does it smoke. I would try putting the stock bov back on but it wont fit on the greddy flange and I trashed the old stock piping. I think with the next turbo install I am just going to loosen it up alot.

HighPsi92GST, I am begining to think so too, and I am not going to buy any more 14b's that's for sure. Whatever I buy will be brand new I will just have to learn to save my money.

GriffLaserRS, I did that on both the two turbo's I installed, I also do that every oil change as well. I will try disconnecting the oil feed line and crank just to make absolute sure there is oil squirting out.

So can compressor surge be this damaging? To shave turbine fines clean off? To back compressor bolts off and destroy the rest of the turbo? I spoke to a friend and he said he ran around with a 14b with NO BOV for three weeks and never had a problem. His he full of sh!t?

Thanks again for all the help guys, Kevin.

 

[rjgeier]

Make sure that your air filter isnt letting shit get past it.

 

[espinelli]

I have used a different oil feed line (from the head) both times I installed. I don't think you could blame oil starvation on the last tubro failure either.

Well there is your problem. You should only feel ball bearing turbos from the head. Ball Bearing turbos don't like excessive pressure/oil as do jounal bearing turbos.

Your feed should coming from the filter housing. But I suspect you have a couple things going on aside from your oil supply line. Possibly buying junk turbo's as stated above.....Also, I can't see 1/2" of shaft play being possible unless the wheels have been completely chewed up and that would still be a stretch.

 

[Sk8er07999]

Well there is your problem. You should only feel ball bearing turbos from the head. Ball Bearing turbos don't like excessive pressure/oil as do jounal bearing turbos.

Your feed should coming from the filter housing. But I suspect you have a couple things going on aside from your oil supply line. Possibly buying junk turbo's as stated above.....Also, I can't see 1/2" of shaft play being possible unless the wheels have been completely chewed up and that would still be a stretch.

A 14b is not a ball bearing turbo. It is a standard thrust bearing turbo. It is a stock turbo and is fed its supply of oil from the stock location, the head. The 1/2 inch of shaft play was an exageration. The second blown turbo had enough shaft play in it that you could take the intake pipe off while it was running and physically see the shaft wobbling around in there and the compressor wheel would be scrapping the sides of the compressor housing.

 

[espinelli]

I never stated nor implied that a 14B was a ball bearing turbo. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows that. Since your going through so many turbo's, the point I was trying to get across is that you might want to swap your oil feed line. Got pic's of the turbine staft wheels? Post them, they can tell an awful lot.

 

[Sk8er07999]

I never stated nor implied that a 14B was a ball bearing turbo. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows that. Since your going through so many turbo's, the point I was trying to get across is that you might want to swap your oil feed line. Got pic's of the turbine staft wheels? Post them, they can tell an awful lot.

That's what I did with both turbos. I never reused any of the oil feed lines.

 

[espinelli]

Here's what I'm saying...Tap into the oil filter housing and run a new feed line for your next turbo. Just be sure the line is rated for high temp and pressure. If not, more than likely the tubing will melt away and clog things up.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

I highly doubt this is an oil feed problem. You people are so quick to pass it off as the easiest answer. The stock feed location from the head using the stock oil feed line to run a stock turbo will not cause it to blow up in 100 miles or less! There is obvisouly another problem here. Compressor surge is deffientely not good for a turbo but will it cause this type of damage? I mean his second turbo practically disintegrated. Now his third has sheard the blades off the exhaust side.

 

[fastwaytech]

Buy a new turbo and your good.

As you can see it would have been cheaper in the long run.

I've done the same thing.

 

[huafist]

Buy a new turbo and your good.

As you can see it would have been cheaper in the long run.

I've done the same thing.

Only to watch it disintegrate like the previous 3? He's got a problem he needs to resolve before slapping on a new turbo, or he's gonna have the same results. I can believe 1 or 2 faulty turbos. 3 is just unrealistic, especially if he ran it for 100 miles before it went south.

I'm with the other guy - have you checked to make sure your air filter isn't letting shit get past it? Does the engine run ok other than blowing turbos? No odd sounds?

 

[espinelli]

Honestly, we can all speculate and argue this to no end. I think what you need to do is disassemble the blown turbos and visually inspect the parts. Looking at the internals of a dead turbo can sometimes tell you what happened. Hell take some pics and post them up. Maybe its not an oil feed issue or maybe it is.

 

[pweizman]

I am a newbie...but just a question.

It seems he is running quite a bit of boost on these 14B's. He was running 18 on the first / 15 on the second / 20 on the third.

I am thinking the 18 & 20 psi is pushing it on a 14B. The 15 psi is totally fine.

Anyone else think that could be an issue?

Thanks,
Patrick

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Buy a new turbo and your good.

Ok, lets not be stupid here. As huafist said, the problem needs to be fixed before putting anymore turbos on. I doubt he wants to blow $500+ on a brand new turbo and have it die like the last 3.

 

[fastwaytech]

Ok well,

How many 14B's do you know of with less then 100K on them?

(If you run another used turbo, then maybe turn down the boost.)

If he isn't paying any labor to swap them out, great. If he is then OBVIOUSLY having a new turbo is cheaper\ then switching out 5 turbos .

I'm just still leaning to thinkin it's the turbos, not the car. It is not at all unreasonable to believe all these 14B's were on their last leg.

People don't sell mint condition 14B turbos for $100.

Do they? If so, I will take 5 please!

 

[Sk8er07999]

Ok the car runs perfect as I am still driving it around every day non-turbo. Actually my girlfriend is I can't stand driving a car that slow. (Heavy AWD car running N/A with 7.8:1 compression!) Nothin was every sucked into the inlet as none of the three turbo's compressor wheels have been damaged in the slightest way. Sorry guys I don't have a digital camera. I might buy a cheap one just to show you guys the carnage. Of course all you guys say oil is the problem and yes you could say so on the first one, maybe the second one but for sure not the third one because it's still in mint condition except it has no turbine wheel fines. So the main question I ask and the only problem I can figure is compressor surge. As I know I have had compressor surge on every turbo I have ever had on there. So I know for a fact the exhaust gasses coming out can be exteremly strong. On the second turbo THEY COMPLETELY SHEARED THE SHAFT OFF IN THE BACK OF THE TURBINE WHEEL FOR GODS SAKE!! Obviously something had enough power to do some more damage! On the third turbo it gave my turbine wheel a hair cut! Well that's done and over with the only thing so far I can blame it on is compressor surge. My type-s is tightened down way too far.

Well I might pick up another 14b tomorrow for 80 bucks. I got him down since I said they are junk and I go through them like crazy . The only different thing I plan on doing with this turbo is lowering the boost to 15 maybe 18 and loosening the BOV all the way out. Any other suggestions?

And thanks for the responses so far, Kevin.

 

[huafist]

I'd drop my boost down to 8 or 9 psi to begin with. You can't start at a full sprint with untested legs.

 

[Sk8er07999]

I'd drop my boost down to 8 or 9 psi to begin with. You can't start at a full sprint with untested legs.

True true, that is a good idea.

 

[GTM]

...

As I know I have had compressor surge on every turbo I have ever had on there. So I know for a fact the exhaust gasses coming out can be exteremly strong. On the second turbo THEY COMPLETELY SHEARED THE SHAFT OFF IN THE BACK OF THE TURBINE WHEEL FOR GODS SAKE!! Obviously something had enough power to do some more damage! On the third turbo it gave my turbine wheel a hair cut! Well that's done and over with the only thing so far I can blame it on is compressor surge. My type-s is tightened down way too far.

Well I might pick up another 14b tomorrow for 80 bucks. I got him down since I said they are junk and I go through them like crazy . The only different thing I plan on doing with this turbo is lowering the boost to 15 maybe 18 and loosening the BOV all the way out. Any other suggestions? And thanks for the responses so far, Kevin.

Other than the "carnage" you have observed can anyone give any supporting argument where a turbo can generate so much torque that it will be the cause of generating so much torque/inertia that it shears shafts and turbines off. Have you put a torque wrench on them and can look me in the eye and maintain a straight face and tell me it's twisting pieces off. It migh prove to be interesting to throw a quart of water at the inlet while it's wound out tight and see if anything happens besides stalling it out.

I tend to think you are buying turbos with problems including someone has tampered with them and got them out of balance. This I could believe would be a contributing factor. It also might prove worth while to know what oil pressuer he is running but that would require drilling out a banjo bolt head and installing a pressure gauge feed.

I can attest that my son's unmoded TSi visited in excess of 20psi a few times by accident but just as fast as it got that high I backed out of it. My point is it didn't self destruct and was a used turbo with nominal shaft play. I did make up a slurry of molly grease and engine oil which I then filled the chamber. I proceded to use a vacuum cleaner both on suction and exhaust to spin the turnins up a bit just to give it a head start. I'm not into wheel spin and launches but had my share of fun keeping someone pinned up agains the curb when they decide to make an extra lane.

Now for the advantage of buying new, at least he would have a place to hang his hat if that were to go south for he could at least get a replacement one time. The bottom line from my point of view is he needs answers that only he can establish by more testing to rule out that something else is causing his problems. Not meaning to be insulting, but some drivers blow up clutches, others transmissions, yet others destroy engines so maybe he's just hard on turbos and hasn't yet reached those more expensive repairs.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[pweizman]

I can attest that my son's unmoded TSi visited in excess of 20psi a few times by accident but just as fast as it got that high I backed out of it. My point is it didn't self destruct and was a used turbo with nominal shaft play.
Cheers,
GTM

Agreed, I am not saying that a 14B isn't capable of 20psi. I am just saying maybe it isn't a good idea to have your MBC set to 20psi and run around boosting that normally on a used 14B with xx,xxx miles on it...

Maybe I am crazy!

Too much boost will kill a turbo. It builds up too much heat, and eventually the shaft will hit the bushing because it starts to cook the oil between the shaft and the bushing. Once that happens, the shaft will hit the bushing...and it eats itself.

Later,
Patrick

 

[GTM]

...
I am just saying maybe it isn't a good idea to have your MBC set to 20psi and run around boosting that normally on a used 14B with xx,xxx miles on it...

Maybe I am crazy!

Too much boost will kill a turbo. It builds up too much heat, and eventually the shaft will hit the bushing because it starts to cook the oil between the shaft and the bushing. Once that happens, the shaft will hit the bushing...and it eats itself.
Patrick

I don't think you are crazy, to my knowledge no one had tampered with the MBC so it got there by accident much to my surprise. I was trying to stress that just because it _can_ doesn't mean that you should allow this to happen unless a person is willing to suffer the consequences of scattering an engine or the turbo.

It doesn't have to break parts when it overheats for it can just seize the shaft and fail to rotate. In the dozens of turbos my mechanics replaced under warranty while with Nissan I don't remember any that had broken, only seized shafts. I'm sure this was in part due to the newness of the turbos... nothing with 100k so shafts and bushings had not worn. Yes we did have failures but from obvious customer abuse or modifications to increase HP which voided their warranty.

Like with everything else common sense is the responsibility of the driver and if they don't want failures they need to ensure they are not exceeding reasonable use.

Cheers,
GTM