Help motor install/break in

[saechao04]

Hey guys I just got my motor back and I'm going to be dropping it in tomorrow. I was wondering about breaking it in. I have 880's injectors, fp2 cams, and t28. Tuning with link and wideband. I'm just curious how I'm gonna tune without breaking it in. Should I find some 450's and just monitor for knock while I'm breaking it in? Also breaking it in without boost, should I just take out the internal waste gate?

 

[SharonTampons]

Hey guys I just got my motor back and I'm going to be dropping it in tomorrow. I was wondering about breaking it in. I have 880's injectors, fp2 cams, and t28. Tuning with link and wideband. I'm just curious how I'm gonna tune without breaking it in. Should I find some 450's and just monitor for knock while I'm breaking it in? Also breaking it in without boost, should I just take out the internal waste gate?

Everybody has their own methods, this is a highly debated topic.

The easiest thing to do is use the stock ECU, stock injectors and stock boost levels. Personally, I feel it is important to break the motor in with at least stock boost levels to help the piston rings seat properly.


After you make sure everything operational, not leaking and up to par (by driving it around the block a couple times) I like to take it through the RPM range once or twice [2000 RPM to 5500-6000rpm] Then keep the RPMs under 5000rpm, down shifting uses the engine to decelerate and is also good practice while breaking in the motor.

 

[quayzar590awd]

Bolt on stock equip for break in, disregard most of what was posed above me. You want to keep as much load off the engine as your possibly can. 5 to 8 psi on a 14b MAX for break in is what I practice. Engine breaking should be avoided if possible it makes the engine work harder during a critical time. I also change my oil often every 500 miles or so and install a rare earth magnet on my drain plug for break in. When I break my motors in I do NOT exceed 4000 rpm's for ANY reason. Break in is crucial for longevity of your rings and bore surface and the engine life in general. You want to be as gentle as you can during that period. You will have PLENTY of time to stomp on the gas and go fast. You can live for a little while driving like little miss Daisey. Minimizing the load on your new rotating assembly and other parts is KEY. When its all broken in and everything is copacetic then go blasting 10000 rpm pulls at 10000000 psi. Engine brake all you want beat the living crap out of it for all i care but not until its PROPERLY broken in. DON'T USE SYNTHETIC OIL FOR BREAK IN either its much to slick and will not allow proper lubrication to occur. Why would you remove the factory gate? Your boost controller can just be dialed down to a low level. I have set mine to as little as 5 psi and the gate opens just as it would if set to 25 psi.

 

[TSIfreek]

I would run waist gate boost (10) psi and I like to drive it hard every now and then to put some pressure on the rings to seat them well. I would run the stock injectors and keep the AFRs at 10.9-11.0 on 93 pump gas.
Its best to run a straight 30 WT non deturgent oil for break in as you will get a better ring seal.
Start the engine let it run at 2000 RPM once you see oil pressure for 5 to 10 min after that set the ignition base timing, check the coolant level. Shut the motor down and change the oil and filter (inspect the filter if possible) take it for a good drive change the oil again and check the filter. Then change the oil after 500 miles. You can run what ever oil you want after 1500 miles of regular oil total.

 

[donniekak]

As everyone knows every shop with a race car and john force go easy on them for 500 miles first. You do not want to beat on it, but give it load followed by coastdown progressivly revving higher. If done properly an engine can be broke in within a short period of time, either on a dyno or the street. I build many engines andi do it similar to the motoman method. I have never had a ring sealing issue.

 

[tkelly27]

Every engine that leaves burscher's shop goes on the dyno and makes somewhere close to the most power it will ever see within 30 minutes of first start. I lost the page where he explains their break in procedure. Basically, one heat cycle to full temp checking for leaks, then let it cool off. Get it warmed back up, then beat the snot out of it.

Here's the theory, only one part of the engine should be breaking in, that's the piston rings. The bearings, cams, etc, should (theoretically) not ever have metal on metal contact. If they were going to fail, they would no matter what you did in the first X miles. If you are trying to break in your engine bearings, you're doing it wrong : D

To break in the rings force is required. The rings seal by being forced out by combustion and compression gasses. The gas pushes down on the ring to seal it against the piston, then on the back of the ring to seal it against the cylinder walls. The more pressure (engine load) the more these will wear down. The faster and harder you can wear these into each other, the better their seal is going to be.

They also say regular dino oil for break in is better because... umm, I dunno why. Corvettes and vipers come with synthetic from the factory, so synthetic can't be that bad. A waste of $25 after you change it in the first 500 miles though.

I did this with my engine by using wastegate pressure (10psi) and running through all RPM and load ranges on a curvy road. The leakdown and compression were all perfect.

 

[quayzar590awd]

Vipers and vetts have the engines bench tested and broken in from the factory, They don't use synthetic oil for break in.Guaranteed, my info comes from an old guy who has only been in the game for oh idk since the early 60's has seven ASE certi's to his name and dozens of other secondary training programs under his belt .He builds a few dozen 1000+ hp engines per year. But idk he might not know what he is talking about not. I have taken his advise from the beginning and have NEVER had an issue. His theory and principals always pan out and make for a great end result. The fact that he also has about 15000 hp worth of muscle in his garage that all runs perfectly helps me believe what he says also. He turned every bolt and hand builda every inch of all of them. He has forgotten more than I will ever know x5. He is the go to guy locally for every one that wants quality. He charges around 20k for an all alum 454 short block. His turn key 632 makes over 900 hp on pump gas. Costs about 30k for an iron block unit and he has a waiting list about a mile long for his work.

 

[tkelly27]

Everyone has their own methods, I've had good results with mine, and you've had good results with yours. I'm inclined to think it doesn't matter, and the whole "do not exceed X rpm or push the engine hard" was designed more for transmissions than engine break ins.

I do know for a fact that there are people making 1000hp DSMs and they put them straight onto the dyno to make that 1000hp after they are buttoned up. You can't really compare the longevity of a 632 cubic inch V8 engine to that of a 2 liter (122in^3) 4 cylinder making similar power, so that's irrelevant.

It would be nice to know the theory behind the take it easy approach, and what is supposed to happen after 4k RPM to a new engine. I took mine out to red line it's first time out and have been ever since. Half a year later the compression is 4psi below the factory spec maximum and leak down was equally good.

 

[quayzar590awd]

Nothing will happen after 4k I just dont want to push a brand spanking new engine @ first. If it lets go it lets go. I guess I would rather have something happen @ low rpm than high rpm's. I am just anal and insist on being gentle for the first little bit just in case. There is no reason behind it I just take it easy during break in. Some people go balls out first start and have no probs, Thats just not how I get down. It will fail within the first 10 minutes of start up if its going to fail generally. I really just dont like to go stomping on a fresh set of rings. I like to give them some time to get sealed correctly before pushing the go pedal to carpet thats all. Oh and the guy builds everything not just hot rods. His son works on nothing but Mitsubishi and Audi. He seems to agree with his pops. Comparing a Wankel to a standard piston engine is a bad comparison. That big nasty 632 has an 8 71 sitting on top of it and it makes the power the same way as our beloved 4g63. Its the same principal just on a much grander scale. His engines come with a two year 12k mile warranty. 1000hp anything with a warranty is amazing.

 

[SharonTampons]

Bolt on stock equip for break in, disregard most of what was posed above me. You want to keep as much load off the engine as your possibly can. 5 to 8 psi on a 14b MAX for break in is what I practice. Engine breaking should be avoided if possible it makes the engine work harder during a critical time. I also change my oil often every 500 miles or so and install a rare earth magnet on my drain plug for break in. When I break my motors in I do NOT exceed 4000 rpm's for ANY reason. Break in is crucial for longevity of your rings and bore surface and the engine life in general. You want to be as gentle as you can during that period. You will have PLENTY of time to stomp on the gas and go fast. You can live for a little while driving like little miss Daisey. Minimizing the load on your new rotating assembly and other parts is KEY. When its all broken in and everything is copacetic then go blasting 10000 rpm pulls at 10000000 psi. Engine brake all you want beat the living crap out of it for all i care but not until its PROPERLY broken in. DON'T USE SYNTHETIC OIL FOR BREAK IN either its much to slick and will not allow proper lubrication to occur. Why would you remove the factory gate? Your boost controller can just be dialed down to a low level. I have set mine to as little as 5 psi and the gate opens just as it would if set to 25 psi.

I got the advise I posted from a local engine builder who has built countless 4g63s. I followed those exact guidelines and my 6bolt is 20,000 miles in and still as stout as the day it was rebuilt and sees 28psi every day I drive it. So if you are suggesting that I am wrong, you are a fool. It might be different than what you do, but it is not harmful.

Again, it is a widely debated topic, so there is bound to be guys like this who disagree. In stead of telling you that "I am right", and "that guy doesn't know what he is talking about", I implore you to do your own research.

 

[tkelly27]

1.42hp/in^3 spread across 8 rods and pistons vs 7.4hp/in^3 spread across 4 rods and pistons is pretty different as far as I'm concerned. Engines is engines, but an engine that size is not under the stress that the 2l is at those power levels which is why it can survive so long.

There are also potentially a lot of differences between the two engines. If the V8 has a flat tappet cam, it is really important to cam life that you not exceed a given RPM. There are other things, but I'm too tired to remember V8 things.

Again, I'm not arguing, but I don't see a scientific reason to take it easy.
Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power
also, we're about to be merged or locked
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...break-breaking-motor-break-merged-10-6-a.html
but there are as many different opinions in that thread as there are people building engines : D

I don't want my engine to let go at high RPM either, but if something lets go you are f'ed in the a either way.

One thing I think everyone can agree on is to break in an engine with a known good tune, unless you are a tuning wizzard. With either method, a stock turbo/tune at 10psi is way better than a bad or unknown tune at any psi. Also, I agree with the regular dino juice, and oil changes.

 

[SharonTampons]

Nothing will happen after 4k I just dont want to push a brand spanking new engine @ first. If it lets go it lets go. I guess I would rather have something happen @ low rpm than high rpm's. I am just anal and insist on being gentle for the first little bit just in case. There is no reason behind it I just take it easy during break in. Some people go balls out first start and have no probs, Thats just not how I get down. It will fail within the first 10 minutes of start up if its going to fail generally. I really just dont like to go stomping on a fresh set of rings. I like to give them some time to get sealed correctly before pushing the go pedal to carpet thats all.

please explain how "being gentle" on break in is better for the rings, and makes them seal better.

Since you are going around telling people to disregard other peoples advise, surely you have a reason.

 

[donniekak]

People afraid to push a new engine lack confidence in their build. If you wait 500 miles to push the engine and the first time you do, it spins a rod bearing, you could have done the same thing in front of your house the day you dropped it in. If you do not load the engine within a short period of time, the cylinder walls will glaze. That is why you do not want to run the engine under a steady, light load for the first run of it's life. The procedure that is used to break in the hand built supercar engines on dyno's is a gradual increase in load and rpm's, with coastdown in between pulls. On a new build i usually get 80-90% of the compression i shoud have. After a 10-20 minute procedure i do on a local desert road, i'm always in spec. I also change the oil 3 times in the first 100 miles. And to better answer the op's question, you need to be spot on for the initial tune. To rich and you wash the cylinders. To lean, and when you load the engine to much heat is put into the cylinder walls. Either way, you have glazed walls.

 

[SharonTampons]

Wonderful post tkelly27, if I knew how to give you Rep, I would.

People afraid to push a new engine lack confidence in their build. If you wait 500 miles to push the engine and the first time you do, it spins a rod bearing, you could have done the same thing in front of your house the day you dropped it in. If you do not load the engine within a short period of time, the cylinder walls will glaze. That is why you do not want to run the engine under a steady, light load for the first run of it's life. The procedure that is used to break in the hand built supercar engines on dyno's is a gradual increase in load and rpm's, with coastdown in between pulls. On a new build i usually get 80-90% of the compression i shoud have. After a 10-20 minute procedure i do on a local desert road, i'm always in spec. I also change the oil 3 times in the first 100 miles. And to better answer the op's question, you need to be spot on for the initial tune. To rich and you wash the cylinders. To lean, and when you load the engine to much heat is put into the cylinder walls. Either way, you have glazed walls.

Thank you.

That is exactly how it was explained to me.

 

[Rob10_99]

Weld the wastegate shut, and go get some beers.

No but really, just make sure you use non detergent.

 

[saechao04]

Thanks for all the response"s guys I really appreciate it. I guess it does come down to personal preference it looks like. I will get some 450 injectors, however, I do have a new clutch, flywheel, and pressure plate, these need to be broken in also. The shop recommended running no boost for the first 500 miles. From all my research on here it seems like there is no way to go wrong on how to break it in. Some baby it, some don't and they all seem to run well. I'm just not sure to run boost or not I suppose. Oh yeah, got the motor in tonight =D those damn urethane motor mounts were a b*t*h.

 

[quayzar590awd]

People afraid to push a new engine lack confidence in their build. If you wait 500 miles to push the engine and the first time you do, it spins a rod bearing, you could have done the same thing in front of your house the day you dropped it in. If you do not load the engine within a short period of time, the cylinder walls will glaze. That is why you do not want to run the engine under a steady, light load for the first run of it's life. The procedure that is used to break in the hand built supercar engines on dyno's is a gradual increase in load and rpm's, with coastdown in between pulls. On a new build i usually get 80-90% of the compression i shoud have. After a 10-20 minute procedure i do on a local desert road, i'm always in spec. I also change the oil 3 times in the first 100 miles. And to better answer the op's question, you need to be spot on for the initial tune. To rich and you wash the cylinders. To lean, and when you load the engine to much heat is put into the cylinder walls. Either way, you have glazed walls.

I have NEVER waited 500 miles to stomp on it. your point is valid 500 miles is much much to long a duration for a break in, All I basically said was don't go around blasting on it until its properly broken in. Why would I tell the kid to do the wrong thing.What if he goes and puts on a fat snail and huge injectors and runs a questionable tune then goes out and puts the hammer down right after the fact. I was just trying to covey to him that its advisable to take it easy don't be the right foot hero. Put the stock stuff back on to get the car dialed in and ready to be beaten on. When its done and everything is good put your giant flow monster on and your 10000 cc injector's in and get it tuned right and have fun. There will always be others interpretation of how to do this and that. It basically as you said comes down to personal preference. I have never had an issue, none of the people I have advised of I guess my borrowed method has had a problem either. Maybe you mis understood what I was trying to say. Either way do what you want and be happy, his way other guys way, your friends, brothers, uncles mechanic from Hoboken Nj's way. Its all good we are all just trying to help the kid out. Regardless of your methodology I wish you the best of luck man. Dig in get into her bowls have fun doing it and the rewards come soon after. Just to clarify we don't have hand cast super car engines. The 4g63 LACKS a super car engines hand cast block, heads and every other piece on the freaking thing. the 4g63 LACKS a super cars engines tolerance specifications, AS WELL as their use of only the pinnacle of alloys and exotic metal for the internal components, The 4g63 also lacks the Pinnacle of machining and assembly techniques and procedures they utilize to hand assemble each one. Oh and the 4g63 also costs about 50 to 100 times less than the engines your are referring to. Your comparing apples and oranges, David and Goliath. Comparing a 4g63 to a 12 cyl Ferrari or Mercedes piece is like comparing the cars to each other stock, your playing on a totally different level when you enter the exotic car realm there dude master flex. 500 WAY WAY PLUS grand = 100k PLUS for an engine vs 20 k new with a 2500 dollar engine . Bad comparison and I could not hold my tongue on it. Thats just wrong Enzo would smack you right on the jaw bone for that. WTF

 

[donniekak]

I have NEVER waited 500 miles to stomp on it. your point is valid 500 miles is much much to long a duration for a break in, All I basically said was don't go around blasting on it until its properly broken in. Why would I tell the kid to do the wrong thing.What if he goes and puts on a fat snail and huge injectors and runs a questionable tune then goes out and puts the hammer down right after the fact. I was just trying to covey to him that its advisable to take it easy don't be the right foot hero. Put the stock stuff back on to get the car dialed in and ready to be beaten on. When its done and everything is good put your giant flow monster on and your 10000 cc injector's in and get it tuned right and have fun. There will always be others interpretation of how to do this and that. It basically as you said comes down to personal preference. I have never had an issue, none of the people I have advised of I guess my borrowed method has had a problem either. Maybe you mis understood what I was trying to say. Either way do what you want and be happy, his way other guys way, your friends, brothers, uncles mechanic from Hoboken Nj's way. Its all good we are all just trying to help the kid out. Regardless of your methodology I wish you the best of luck man. Dig in get into her bowls have fun doing it and the rewards come soon after. Just to clarify we don't have hand cast super car engines. The 4g63 LACKS a super car engines hand cast block, heads and every other piece on the freaking thing. the 4g63 LACKS a super cars engines tolerance specifications, AS WELL as their use of only the pinnacle of alloys and exotic metal for the internal components, The 4g63 also lacks the Pinnacle of machining and assembly techniques and procedures they utilize to hand assemble each one. Oh and the 4g63 also costs about 50 to 100 times less than the engines your are referring to. Your comparing apples and oranges, David and Goliath. Comparing a 4g63 to a 12 cyl Ferrari or Mercedes piece is like comparing the cars to each other stock, your playing on a totally different level when you enter the exotic car realm there dude master flex. 500 WAY WAY PLUS grand = 100k PLUS for an engine vs 20 k new with a 2500 dollar engine . Bad comparison and I could not hold my tongue on it. Thats just wrong Enzo would smack you right on the jaw bone for that. WTF

You brought up viper, and corvette engines. All engines are pretty similar when it comes to break in. The crosshatch on the cylinder walls, and the rings are what break in on a ohc, roller finger follower engine. People do a lot of things different ways, but some are wrong, and some are right. Engine breakin is not a matter of prefrence, there is a right way, and then other ways. All big time engine builders, and oem's, have a specific method of loading, and coasting down an engine. Hell, even the dorks on tv, that build the same pushrod v8 over and over, do it that way on their dyno. Go to the engine builders magazine web site and research. You are correct in one thing. A spot on tune is the only way to break in an engine. I always recomend stock injectors and ecu for a breakin, unless there is a setup with a known good tune to bolt up.

 

[Richrx_tsi]

hey so im in the same boat. I am leaning toward breaking it in hard, but I will have a new tranny and clutch. So they kind of contradict breaking it in hard. Since your suppose to take it easy on a new clutch and tranny right?

 

[donniekak]

Loading the engine doesn't mean 20psi of boost. You can do a proper break in at wastegate boost levels.

 

[quayzar590awd]

So SAE is the engine installed yet? It has been a couple of days and I wanted to see if you have made any head way on your project. post up some pics when your done with it. I always do enjoy when a tuner finishes and is all proud of what he/she has done. I personally like to see how others do certain things and add their own personal flavor. You can learn a lot by just looking at pics....as stupid as that may sound. It makes you realize what you like to see and do not like to see. Minus spending all the money just to realize everything you just did is or just plain UGLY.

 

[saechao04]

I do have the motor in, just looking for some stock injectors so I can start breaking it in. However the classifieds are down =( right now. Trying to find some local but no luck yet. I will get some pictures up tomorrow.

 

[saechao04]

Here are some pictures of the before and after.
Out:
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In:
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<a href="http://s265.photobucket.com/albums/ii229/nsaechao85/?action=view&current=DSC_0257.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii229/nsaechao85/DSC_0257.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br />
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