Head gasket/Buschur head issue?

[DsMWookie]

Ok I was running the factory graphite head gasket and a buschur stage 3 head SS valve and titanium springs and retainers, O ringed head surfaced. So the motor was rebuilt 0 miles hasn't even been tried to crank yet. We bolted the head down and timed it all up set the motor in. Needless to say filling with fluids and buttoning up the engine. We filled the radiator up and proceeded to squeeze the radiator hose to get bubbles out of the system. We shortly noticed that coolant is leaking from between the head and block. The block was decked and the head is brand new from Buschur. So do I have the wrong head gasket for a Oringed cylinder head or is their something special I need to know this is the only thing I can think of, please help!

 

[Defiant]

So do I have the wrong head gasket for a Oringed cylinder head or is their something special I need to know this is the only thing I can think of, please help!

I suspect you don't know what O-ringing is. Which leads me to ask if you put the gasket on upside-down.

 

[DsMWookie]

http://gadsm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9598

Go to picture 5 and look at the bottom of the cylinder head. The head gasket was installed in the right direction.

 

[DsMWookie]

Just got off the phone with Buschur Racing. I was told to only use the MLS head gasket and not the graphite one. I am assuming because the graphite ones have the metal compression ring and it can't evenly clamp down on the gasket sealing the coolant pass ways.

Let me know if you have any other ideas Defiant or anyone else?

 

[DsMWookie]

After further calling Buschur and speaking to Jarred he informed me that the composite gasketshould be fine and that they have used it before in their engines. He questions whether the block was perfectly flat. The machine shop who did my block has a decent reputation and I called them and they are VERY confident it has nothing to do with his block. Ewing Machine shop said that it is a common problem with the O ring'd heads wanting to leak coolant and he suggested running a little aluminium sealant in the coolant to seal the water thats leaking. Being that the combustion chambers are perfectly sealed I can't see it hurting anything.

 

[bigjdog84]

Do you know what thickness the o-ring wire is?

Adding that garbage to the coolant is only a band-aid and more than likely will not even hold when things get hot. I'd advise not even trying it.

I don't understand why you would use a composite gasket with this type of setup, but if the wire is the correct size & the block/head are true then I would go with an MLS style gasket.

Later/joe

 

[Big Woo]

I find it interesting that on two separate phone calls to the same vendor, different answers were given. One stating that they only use MLS head gaskets, and on the second that the graphite gasket should be fine.

I agree that:
You should not need an additive to seal the head gasket, this is a band aid.

You should also consider:
Are you using a receiver groove for the o-ring in the block?

I only bring this up because I have seen it before, but you didn't have an o-ring installed in both the head and the block did you?

Are you certain that the studs were torqued correctly?

Some head gaskets use a wire ring (fire ring) a type of o-ring to create a positive barrier between the head and block. Placement of this ring (if your head gasket was so equipped) in relationship to the placement of the o-ring is critical. Consider that if the o-ring installed in the head and the ring embedded within the gasket overlap, cross, or are in such proximity to each other, that it will next next to impossible to seal the two rings across eachother. As you are trying to crush the rings together.

 

[Lunch_Box]

I also have a Buschur stage 3 head and when I emailed them they told me to use the factory composite head gasket. Because I am running a 2.4L I am using a Fel-Pro composite head gasket and have heard great results from people with a similar set up. I was under the impression that you want a composite head gasket if the o-rings are in the head and a metal head gasket if the o-rings are in the block.

 

[DsMWookie]

Ok as to your questoins:

I got my new head gasket in a Mitsu. MLS and we bolted the head down and filled it with coolant then torqued it in 15lb steps to 90ft lbs. With the new MLS gasket the leak was almost non existent but now still just a tad of fluid is building up between the head and block surface (not dripping or drops). I am at wits end as to what to do now and have ran out of ideas.

To add the MLS gasket had a sunken section like it was made for O ringed heads. I def. can see how the firing ring on the composite was holding it off some and how this gasket allowed the O rings to sink into it some. I'm going to pull the head off one more time and take it to a machine shop and have them straight edge it rather than me and see if I made an error. I will also re straight edge the block

 

[GVR4592]

I've seen a few differnet head installs gone wrong that had the same problems you are having. On one car the steel that the timing cover bolts to had been somehow bent over and sandwiched between the block and head. Another had an out of round dowel pin that kept the cylinder head from being completely sealed to the block. I'm not saying your problem isn't gasket/o-ring related, I'm just pointing out some other issues I have seen before.

 

[Lunch_Box]

Buschur seems to be a fan of the oem composite except for extreme high boost applications. Also, doesn't buschur use steel rings for their o-ringed heads?

Steel rings with a MLS gasket, without a reciever groove I don't think that would work too well. Anyone want to chime in as to what combo are used successfully?

-treebonker

Yes Buschur does use stainless steel o-rings in their heads.

 

[DsMWookie]

I removed the dowl pins and checked the tin none of these are relevant anymore. If you look at the picture the head mating surface looks very rough which somewhat puzzles me. I've sent the head to Buschur hopefully they can give me some insight because my block is perfect and I've tried both composite and MLS head gasket neither sealed but the MLS sealed the best of all. Btw yes its SS wire.

 

[DsMWookie]

The head was mailed back to Buschur to check for any imperfections and none were found, it was said to be "perfect". I cleaned the threads on all my ARP's due to the fact that one didn't want to thread in all the way. The MLS head gasket was coated with copper spray for extra reassurance. I torqued it to 120ft lbs this time due to the fact that I only had 10-30W and did them in sequence in 20ft-lb steps. After rapidly pumping the upper radiator hose and putting a paper towel against the block/head I can get an absorbed amount of liquid no bigger than this period. I am curious if the aluminum will expand with the copper spray and seal the minimal leak.

On another note the spot it is leaking from is the middle portion exhaust side of the block. Right that the lip of the block that extens out 2-4Cm's from the base of the block. That middle water jacket where the mid ARP stud runs through.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Did you make sure that all the stud holes in the block were 100% free of liquid when they were installed? If not it's likely that when torking the ARPs down you "hydrolocked" the studs in the block and the trapped coolant is simply seeping up thru the threads.

BTW.. check this new SCE gasket w/ integral o-ring (no machining required)

 

[Big Woo]

While torquing the head studs did you?
a: use the specified sequence
b: did you just go through each sequence once. (I.E. using the sequence you basicily start in the middle and spiral your way to the ends of the head. One sequence would be one torque setting say 30 ft/lbs through all ten head bolts/studs) Lets say you initially torqued all of your head bolts to 30 ft/lbs, did you then move up 20 ft/lbs in torque and go through another sequence, or did you leave torque wrench set at thirty and go through them again? The reason I ask is because many times with a MLS type gasket there will be some settling of the gasket during the torquing procedure. The easiest way to notice this is by repeating a torquing step. If you torqued everything to 30 ft/lbs, and then left the torque wrench setting at 30 ft/lbs and went through them again, you would notice that the center two head bolts would required more torquing to again be at 30 ft/lbs. If you continue this process you will notice that the next four head bolts out from center, the ones between cylinders 1&2, and 3&4 will also require a little more torquing, but not as much as the center two. If you continue on you will find that the outside four head bolts, the ones between cylinder 1 and the timing belt and cylinder 4 and the bell housing, will require almost no torquing. If you are experiencing this problem, and you do not repeat each torque sequence several times, then you may end up with less than your anticipated torque on the six center head bolts. From your responce you are experiencing some seepage from the center of the exhaust side. Are you seeing this same type of seepage on the intake side as well?

c: are you sure the reason the head stud would not screw all the way in was a problem with the stud? Did you try the stud in a different hole? Generally it is a good idea to bottom tap the head bolt holes prior to installing the studs, to ensure that they will seat properly.

 

[DsMWookie]

Yes the torque sequence is recommended by ARP and my manual I checked to make sure they were the same. The wholes in the block were all retapped with a bottom tap and after that all the ARP's threaded in perfectly.

The only thing Im questioning is the RA factor on the head mating surface if you look at the picture it isn't shiny at all and some what ridgid. it feels smooth if you go with the grain but if you go against it their is some texture other than gloss feel.

Gonna time it up and most likely let it run through some heat cycles and pray!