gm maf or 2nd maf on 1st gen

[obee1595]

im having a hard time making a decision on my car. i have 92 eagle talon awd turbo should i put a 2nd gen maf in it or put a gm maf and a translator. i have afc neo, 650 injectors.


thanks obee

 

[justin_5585]

I was posting in your other thread, i though you already had the gm maf. It is the superior system, IMHO, but I am slighted, as mine has treated me great. Either way, it's gonna take some time to get 660's dialed in with an AFC and a MAFT. You need to update your mods in your profile, and we will be better suited to help you. Also, not accusing you of lying, but it's a bit odd having one post asking for how to remove a MAFT on your car, and another asking if you should get one. Just be honest and straightforward here, the majority are eager to help if you are willing to put forth the effort. Good luck to you friend,

-justin

 

[freshlane]

Can't you adjust for 660s with MAFT?

 

[selmerguy]

Can't you adjust for 660s with MAFT?

I run FIC 680's with a MAFT and safc. You could.... run your injectors with just the MAFT but I dont think you will get it to run right. The safc is much better for dialing in the fine tuning points for fuel. I set my injector size and idle with the MAFT and use the SAFC after that.

 

[THE REAL DEAL]

I run FIC 680's with a MAFT and safc. You could.... run your injectors with just the MAFT but I dont think you will get it to run right. The safc is much better for dialing in the fine tuning points for fuel. I set my injector size and idle with the MAFT and use the SAFC after that.

so do you not have any problems doing that? how easy has it been for you?

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

I run FIC 680's with a MAFT and safc. You could.... run your injectors with just the MAFT but I dont think you will get it to run right. The safc is much better for dialing in the fine tuning points for fuel. I set my injector size and idle with the MAFT and use the SAFC after that.

I've got decent sized injectors and my car runs well with just MAFT to tune.


Unless venting is a big deal to you or you plan on making 400+hp I'd suggest the 2g MAF. It's more accurate and CHEAPER. There's really no sense in getting more than you need in this case.

 

[dsm-onster]

I ran PTE 660s and MAFT alone for years. . . Not hard to do. The SAFC more finely tunes WOT operation. Not neccesarily idle and trims. I feel that they are both about the same here.

-SAFC more control at higher engine flows. Can adapt a 2g maf in a 1g (you have to do your own wiring).
-MAFT allows one to run a MAF that 99.9% of us will never outgrow. Can be run in blowthru (the tuning has to be modified from a drawthru setup)
-Neither handle the deadtime of very large injectors (850cc+)well.
-Both cause helateous timing advances after 650cc or so.
-Anything CAN be don't w/ these two. But They lose their ease of operation once you get out of there "work envelope"

EDIT: I'd liek to add that I think a MAFT and DSMLink is a great combination!!! I have this. But So is ECU+ and just a 3" gm maf...

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

^ That's funny, I've read a lot of threads saying MAFT causes problems when running DSMLink. The combo works well for you though? Any problems?

 

[dsm-onster]

DSMLink allows one to "calibrate" the MAFT. It takes away the quirks of the gm maf (or any maf that's usable: hacked 1g, 2g).

.. .where did you hear that?

 

[Dream On]

My vote is for a 2g mas. With as many people having problems with their GM MAF, I wouldn't put one on my car. I dropped my 2g mas in and changed the setting in DSMLink and my car runs better than it did with the hacked 1g in there.

 

[nightspeed87]

evo8 mass, keydiver chip, 850s...

 

[luvmygst]

I would go with the 2g maf. You would not have to use as much compensation on the AFC. You can use a 2g maf and 550cc injectors with almost no tuning because of the better flow of the 2g maf(about 20% better). So instead of having to compensate 450to 660 cc injectors it would be more like compensating from 550 to 660. less correction factor. It would help with the timing issues since the airflow correction is not as much.

 

[dsm-onster]

The 2g maf does flow more air. But a 1g maf flows enough air to get decent power. The 550 w/ 2g maf thing has nothing to do w/ how much more air the maf flows and everything to do w/ how different the hertz curve is. The herts vs volume flow number for the 2g maf is about 20% lower than for the 1g.

No matter what, the ecu uses a timing map based on the airflow (hertz value) it sees from the maf. If the 2g maf fools the ecu into thinking ther is less airflow than there really is (i.e. running 550s and a 2g maf w/ a 1g ecu), then the ecu is going to go to higher timing lower airflow map. . .

No need to tune for 650s and not set the safc for a 2g maf on a 1g ecu. The computer will do the samething. All this will do is likely increase tuning time.

 

[nightspeed87]

Or you just get a chip like I did and run all that stuff like stock and get as big of injectors as you want and stop tinkinering with safc toys. Thats my opinion,
and one of the wisemen on here said you could run the evo mass with the 680s without much of a correction factor but i wouldnt. And yes the evo8 mass is better than the 2g mass.

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

DSMLink allows one to "calibrate" the MAFT. It takes away the quirks of the gm maf (or any maf that's usable: hacked 1g, 2g).

.. .where did you hear that?

Mostly posts like the one below yours

I've just seen a number of threads pop up in my limited reading of the tuning section. I don't have any great understanding of DSMLink, I've just seen posts about conflicts between the two. That's why I ask.

I'm not sure what to go with for advanced tuning in the future so I have some personal interest in the answer as well.

 

[staticbrainwash]

My vote is for 2g maf. Much easier to use and tune. Just hearing about all the little quirks of a gm maf was enough to turn me away. That and i have a friend that works for comp cams, and he used to be a dsm guy. The gm maf is a flawed design for a drawthru set-up on a turbo car because it uses heat to calibrate it's metered air. You'd have to find a way to change those settings or heat range, because he said most turbo cars can easily run colder than that thing is set up for, OR if running hard, run much hotten than it's designed to run for. Just my .02.

2g maf!

OR gm maf and dsmlink if they've gotten the ability to work out all the weird quirks.

 

[Dream On]

My vote is for 2g maf. Much easier to use and tune. Just hearing about all the little quirks of a gm maf was enough to turn me away. That and i have a friend that works for comp cams, and he used to be a dsm guy. The gm maf is a flawed design for a drawthru set-up on a turbo car because it uses heat to calibrate it's metered air. You'd have to find a way to change those settings or heat range, because he said most turbo cars can easily run colder than that thing is set up for, OR if running hard, run much hotten than it's designed to run for. Just my .02.

2g maf!

OR gm maf and dsmlink if they've gotten the ability to work out all the weird quirks.

That's weird, b/c on the dsmlink forums I've read that the gm maf locks your intake air temperature at something around 80 degrees. (79 if I'm not mistaken)

 

[staticbrainwash]

From everything i heard from my friend he said it uses heated elements (those small wires running across the posts) to measure how fast they are cooled thus giving an air intake estimate/reading. The problem is, is that it can't accurately measure the air because of it's velocity and changing temprature (via an intercooler). I could be wrong, thusly making him wrong, but i trust the kid, he's a BIG gm guy.

Maybe through dsmlink is lock air temp or seems to do so because we don't have anything that can directly measure the heating element changes so it just takes a base temp locks it there for visual purposes and then registers to the ecu through the LINK or maft some other way.

I'm not positive on the mechanics behind how the translator works or how it talks to dsmlink (because as of yet i know you still need maft to interface with the dsmlink). Though i know that will change with the new update of the link.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, the hot wire style mass is used by alot of manufacturers. Nissan 300zx tt (z32) hot wire mafs can read loads of mass air flow.

The is in the element. Thre is a temp sensor and a heat element. The element heats up on startup. As air goes across it, each molecule takes heat away and the sensor has to supply more current to heat the element back to its original tempurature. No matter the density of the air, it can calculate the number of particles going through the sensor because at a certain temp only 1 unit of current coresponds to the exact airflow in the maf.

There are acceptions: Where significantly higher barometric pressures are passed over the element is one of them. That's why one must run a different tune in "blowthru". Probably your frined meant this. Nonetheless, the accuracy is compromised, but not the precision. So recalibrate (or retune) and go on .

 

[Dream On]

I bet the intake temp is locked due to it being in the IC pipe where the temps are much hotter. It would probably really make the car run crappy if it was reading really high intake temps due to the sensor.

 

[dsm-onster]

Locking the signal is not for running in blowthru. Though you are correct that high intercooler piping tems do monkey w/ the temp sensor on the GM MAF. Thus one has to retune or recalibrate his/her MAFT when switching from drawthru to blowthru. The GM MAF accounts for the intake temp in its one total mass flow signal

The DSM ECU calculates mass flow from the DSM MAF. The DSM MAF has 3 output signals (Barometric, Intake Temp. and Volume Flow). These three signals are used to calculate the MASS FLOW. The GM MAF uses the hot wire and intake temp "thermometer" to throw out a SINGLE signal, mass flow.

Since our ecu still needs three signals to calculate mass flow, the MAFT translates the gm signal into a DSM volume flow signal. The DSM ECU reads the volume flow signal from the translator; the volume flow signal that can be calculated (w/ the "locked" signals: 80*(F) and 1Bar) to yield the true mass flow. So sharp accuracy is maintained. Sometimes the translator does not put out the correct "locked" intake temp and baro signals. This WILL throw the DSM ECU math of and consequently your trims and WOT a/f ratio. So in dsmlink one can tell the ecu to ignore (lock) those two signals and still calculate mass flow from the volume flow input from the translator supposing 1Bar and 80*(F) intake regardless of what the baro pin and the intake temp pin say at the ecu.

Did I confuse you enough?

 

[staticbrainwash]

Nope i got it.

So what would you realistically recommend then? Gm maft say gen2, or run it with v1.0 and dsmlink? Obviously dsmlink has bonuss over gen2, but from everything i've read, the real issue with maft is people running it JUST on the maft, sans dsmlink.

 

[dsm-onster]

Being the maft locking bug was fixed and I think if you send it to fullthrottle they will fix it for free, I've had no problems running jsut the MAFT. 650s will give you enough fuel for around 400hp. This is on the outer edge of what I would trust my personal skillset w/ tuning using just a translator. I feel DSMLink makes tuning easier not more complicated. Since many don't have any real success w/ the MAFT and larger injectors anyway, I'd recommend the translator for anything for 650cc and under if you have tight budget AND don't plan on taking the engine to 400+ hp levels. This is all my personal opinion. Anything is POSSIBLE .

 

[staticbrainwash]

Maybe i will still consider gen2 then, i'm assuming the bug is fixed in that one. Good info, thanks!

 

[Dream On]

A book

Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the explanation.