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1G Getting my 91 Eclipse NT race car to run right

mushe40

Proven Member
30
1
May 8, 2021
West Enfield, Maine
if i change my 1g maf and put in 2g maf would i have to change my injecter ive been told that i have to have computer worked on to run 550 injectors so i f i go 2g maf can i just stop there not change injectors or how does this work any help id apreciate ty robert 91 eclipse with 2.0 non turbo 5 speed
 
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steve

DSM Wiseman
14,998
1,799
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
Can I first ask why?

Without a turbo the NA 4G63 doesn't need more fuel or a different MAF.
The standard injectors on the 1G NA 4G63 are 240cc so putting 550cc injectors in would be a huge change (130%) not like the 22% difference those injectors make on a turbo 4G63.

Before you need more fuel you need much more airflow to make the fuel useful.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,414
2,939
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
if i change my 1g maf and put in 2g maf would i have to change my injecter ive been told that i have to have computer worked on to run 550 injectors so i f i go 2g maf can i just stop there not change injectors or how does this work any help id apreciate ty robert 91 eclipse with 2.0 non turbo 5 speed
I saw your other thread on wanting a "racing computer"

Please fill out a profile then read this thread.

You don't seem to have an idea or plan for where you are going. Talk to us and we will help.
You do not need a 2g maf and no you cannot install 550 injectors and have it work.

I will stress this heavily. A plan is NOT a list of parts you want. Read the thread and let us help.
 

mushe40

Proven Member
30
1
May 8, 2021
West Enfield, Maine
Can I first ask why?

Without a turbo the NA 4G63 doesn't need more fuel or a different MAF.
The standard injectors on the 1G NA 4G63 are 240cc so putting 550cc injectors in would be a huge change (130%) not like the 22% difference those injectors make on a turbo 4G63.

Before you need more fuel you need much more airflow to make the fuel useful.
first of all im pretty new with eclipse

i baught this car from back of a guys junk yard it was a previous 4 cylinder race car ive had to replace every nut and bolt 60% of all wiring, built brand new motor, and had the transmission 5 speed locked. everything is new. i tapped the exhaust put in a 02 sensor. I've replaced idle air control valve, i rewired the o2 sensor, wire harness soldered new wires in it.

2.0 non turbo eclipse i don't know much about it I've read a lot and people suggest different things. the car was running real rich and smoking black so I've tested a lot of things and it lead to the cold air intake MAF. I was told to unplug it from post to see if it cleared up after a few second off unplugging the MAF. It cleared up and run pretty good, it would turn up pretty good, so I'm assuming the the MAF is total junk.

So i started asking question and people tell me to get rid of 1g MAF and upgrade to 2g MAF to get more air. All I'm trying to do is make this car be able to compete in my 4 cylinder class at the race track, they call it sport 4, it cannot have turbo but pretty much can do what i want to a point.

I've saw this car race 3 years ago the guy was running top 5. Now I've changed every thing. I put all new racing struts in it, it has all new wheels 14 inch with a 3 inch back space. Running of a jaz fuel cell with an electric pump, checked fuel pressures it was right on with the chilton book with vacuum and with out so all thats good.

so basic i just trying to make it run good. it has 2 cam and double springs matched
Duration: 272 / 272
Duration at .050: 212 / 212
Lift (in) .401in / .381in

i bought this kit after i had machine work done to the block
Nippon Racing Mitsubishi 2G Pistons
1G Rod Kit 4G63T Scat 30 over Piston Rods
ACL Race Main & Rod Bearings for 89-92 Mitsubishi Eclipse 4G63 4G63T 6-Bolt DSM thats was bearing
Gates T167RB1 Timing Belt
XTR STAGE 4 CLUTCH KIT fits ELANTRA COLT MITSUBISHI ECLIPSE LASER TALON 2.0L N/T
bought a remain head 2.0 MITSUBISHI EAGLE DOHC 4G64 GALANT ECLIPSE TALON CYLINDER HEAD GEN 1
the best felpro head gasket
all new head bolts
new oil pump
new water pump
new alternator and starter.

I've done the best to my back yard exsperiance to get this eclipse to where it is now. i just want to race it and compete. i want to try and win one race in my 15 years trying with 4 cylinder cars. previous was a honda civic so now im building this eclipse to race its my gold to make it run at these circle tracks here in Maine.

sorry of my spelling but trying to explain what my goals are here

ty for all under standing ty robert m
 
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steve

DSM Wiseman
14,998
1,799
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
Thank you for all that. I assume your are using a cell phone to read and post here. Slow down and work on getting your ideas down clearly.

I think you may have missed my point. While you have made many changes it's still a 2.0L NA engine. It's fuel needs are limited by how much air it can pump at max RPM. I'm not suggesting you turbo the engine, I know your class rules exclude it. The point was that it's forced induction that enables the use of additional fuel and putting larger injectors on a NA engine doesn't help.

You clearly need a solid tuning solution but the Sport 4 rules limit changed to both injectors and ECU's. They don't seem to limit piggyback devices like an SAFC or changes to Air metering but do exclude chip tuning.

Using a different MAF changes the amount of airflow (and Air Mass) the ECU is using for fueling calculations but you need greater control than just slapping a 2G MAF on. Even a 1G MAF for a turbo car measures air differently than the NA MAF.

Since you don't seem to be able within the class rules able to do ECU tuning an SAFC may be the way to go. I don't remember if there is a piggyback device that allows both fuel and timing adjustments.
 

mushe40

Proven Member
30
1
May 8, 2021
West Enfield, Maine
Good afternoon. So in other words, I should just buy another 1g maf because mine is no good. It was just cheap(?). In the long run, I could of bought all new for around $200 (2G MAF, adapter, the new wire harness that hooks up to the 1G harness and allows me to plug in a 2G MAF and then a good 3in filter).

You tell me that it shouldn't be done with out buying this SAFC thing. But I'm running out of money with this car. I have over $16000 in it building this from pretty much nothing but a shell and a cage. All I wanted was for it to run right. If I put a 2G MAF on it, it's going to run lean unless I use an SAFC?

It also had a lot to do with looking good under hood. The original 1G filter can was all cut up so it could breathe. I was going to make it all new looking. I would of had it all for less then a 1G MAF, cost over $200 plus!

And I still have to put a new rack on. After i bought from good people on this site all the power steering part I needed to make it have power steering, it leaked and blew power steering fluid all over garage floor. So that's the next project. Then finish it up. It's nobody's fault, I'm not blaming anyone or be ignorant to any one. I'm just trying to learn something from you all so unless you have a cheaper idea of how to fix my MAF problem then I guess I should buy a 1G MAF.
Thank you,
Robert M
 
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19Eclipse90

DSM Wiseman
5,298
1,165
Sep 29, 2003
OKC, Oklahoma
Buy a 1G non-turbo MAF and convert the wiring back to how it originally was from the factory. That will be the cheapest, easiest solution to make everything happy for your non-turbo engine and ECU. Once the car is running - which sounds like one of your main goals - you can then worry about making it "look good under the hood" and figuring out how to make more power within your class rules.

Please do try to make your posts more legible in the future. A little spell check and punctuation will go a long way to attracting helpful members to chime in on your posts.
 

97egl

Proven Member
436
208
Feb 6, 2014
Brownsburg, Indiana
Are you still at the point where if you unplug the MAF the car runs better?

Please just answer yes or no
. I understand you are trying to give a bunch of info but you've gotta try and solve 1 problem at a time. Your information gets lost in your long posts and you won't get much help
 

97egl

Proven Member
436
208
Feb 6, 2014
Brownsburg, Indiana
Ok so before assuming the maf is bad I would check it per the service manual. The test can determine that it is for sure bad but just cuz it passes doesn't 100% mean it's good.

If it does pass go ahead and check that the wiring is all correct going to the maf plug. I know you said you'd redone 60% of the cars wiring so check that.

Once you've done that I'd say you can safely determine if the MAF is bad and spend the money to fix it.

Let us know what you find
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mushe40

Proven Member
30
1
May 8, 2021
West Enfield, Maine
ok today im back
I've checked out the throttle body also the intake for leaks. Everything to this point seems really good. I bought a new tbs sensor and positioned it same as the old, i replaced it with a new one. I've checked the plug coming to tbs checked fine.

I replaced idle air sensor with new one, also checked voltage, checked good.

Then i keep trying and cleaning the MAF to point i felt it was no good, so i bought a new one, put it on. i went through all the step i was told to, 1 unplug all sensors and MAF then unpluged the battery let it set for 30 minutes. I return to the car and then plugged in all the sensors and last i plugged in the MAF sensor.

At this point i attached battery terminal to battery and let it settle for 5 minutes. Also i put new brass battery terminals on it.

So at this point every one should know this is a race car so no dash board, just a pipe 4 cylinder race car.

Everything runs off toggle switches.
#1 Power to main toggle
#2 push button start
#3 electric fuel pump switch
#4 radiator fans switch
#5 Alternator switch

This is how my race car is set up.

It has ecm which # are MD166255 E2T36572.
IT ALSO HAS A LITTLE BOX BESIDE IT WITH OUT IT DOESNT START. I WAS TOLD IT POWERS ECU. I HONESTLY DONT KNOW WHAT IT S CALLED CALLED.

So at this point the ecu seems to be the problem but im not positive. This is what's going on. It runs with MAF sensor plugged in but black smoke rolls out and same if you unplug it but clears up better with it off.

I bought this car in pieces but the complete motor has been rebuilt for racing with crowler cams and matching springs. so im at the point where maybe the injectors maybe all i did when installed what was in box was put new o-rings on them and installed them.

So im at a point i dont know any more what to do. Car with set there all day an idle but when you touch throttle it sounds like its on 3 cylinders and black smoke rolls out of it.

so im hoping some may have information that could help me out i would really aprciate it

ps im very sorry i cant spell well and all my dot and crossed t are messed up please understand im a back yard learning to get this eclipse onto the race track

ty robert 91 eclipse 2.0 non turbo race car
 
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pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,414
2,939
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
You're going to have to fix some of the wiring. The computer needs input in order to run properly.

You don't have the idle position switch hooked up at the throttle body so the computer doesn't know it when throttle is closed. You mentioned elsewhere you have coolant temp problems? You need to sort this out.

Lets assume for a minute your MAF works as obviously it changes parameters. Do not attempt to clean it as it is not a hot wire type of sensor. You might also pull the injectors and have them flowed to make sure you have NT injectors (you likely do).

If you don't care about how the car idles you may not care what's going on as at full throttle the ECU will ignore the o2 sensor. The car may become a pain without closed loop feedback. You need some basic datalogging if possible.

Is there even enough dash to display a check engine light anymore? If you intend to keep it fuel injected you're going to need some of the thing that the computer needs. throttle position, idle air control, mass airflow, o2 sensor, coolant temp sensor, cam angle sensor. That ought to do it for now I think.

The small box next to the ECU is the MPI relay. This controls power to the ECU and fuel pump. If you can't figure out the wiring I'm not sure what to tell you. Factory manual will have complete electrical diagrams including wiring colors etc. If you can still determine what year car it is/was and assuming somebody hasn't changed a bunch of stuff.
 

steve

DSM Wiseman
14,998
1,799
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
Stick to one thread. There is lots of information you don't need to repeat and questions people don't need top keep asking.

At this point to make the car run right, what's wired up and how is going to be critical.
Do you have a 1G ECU wiring diagram?
Do you know how to read it?
Can you tell us what's currently hooked up to the ECU in your car?

It's been awhile since we've discussed race car wiring on the forum but most of it is going to remain the same as factory with most of the changes being around how power is fed and if you have things like an ISC to control.
 
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mushe40

Proven Member
30
1
May 8, 2021
West Enfield, Maine
Stick to one thread. There is lots of information you don't need to repeat and questions people don't need top keep asking.

At this point to make the car run right, what's wired up and how is going to be critical.
Do you have a 1G ECU wiring diagram?
Do you know how to read it?
Can you tell us what's currently hooked up to the ECU in your car?

It's been awhile since we've discussed race car wiring on the forum but most of it is going to remain the same as factory with most of the changes being around how power is fed and if you have things like an ISC to control.
good morning

ok yesterday i received new computer for it. The new ECU would not start car at all, so i installed the old one back in and it started right back up. so that failed on me, so im not wiring savey or computer genius on this 1g ist time ive owned it.

i tried studing out whats is for a harness in this car, most of it been discontinued. it has one clump of wires run into computer and a little wire harness that runs into a little box beside computer. i was told it has something to do with fuel injection.

so, that's the wiring inside car. then on outside in motor section wires run to normal thing it needs to fuel injection, tps, ips, coil, alternator, o2 sensor, water temp sensor, and over to the maf sensor.

there is a positive post hooked to the strut tow for positive feed also wires run to starter and to fuel injectors. so this is whats the wire harness feed to ECU.

so to explain what i have put in to run the race car it has toggle switch for main swith for for then a push button for the starter next switch is to run the electric fuel pump. next is for the electric fans. last switch is for the alternator to turn on and off charge.

that's the the basic set up for this race car. i think im going to have to start searching for and wiring harness and maybe start again.

racing start in 2 weeks and here i stand in a stooper.
any how ty you all for listing to me.

sorry i do not have a book that covers wiring for this car. i bought one book on like doesnt show wiring, books are hard to come by.

if you have a picture of it this would be wonderful. i would have a start to know whats what in the wiring color codes to this car.
ty rob

ok this car has a 1g ecm its md 166255 // E2T36572 THIS IS THE ECM THAT came in this car. so this is a 1991 eclipse 2.0 non turbo , this is all i basickly know about this car. there is no vin on this car been taken out along with all dash coponets to instal pipe and put in steel dash
 
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steve

DSM Wiseman
14,998
1,799
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
Thank you, I saw that information earlier and note that it didn't change.

There are posts that point you to where you can download PDF copies of most of the factory manuals you need on the forum.

For what we've been discussing, these 5 pages are most of the key bits and if you don't understand them it's going to very difficult to solve the problems you're discussing. Sorry for the scan quality, I didn't scan them but I did spend a few hours trying to clean them up for you to make them less confusing.

I'll also tack on a 1G Turbo ECU connector document. The NA ECU doesn't use a few signals but most are the same. You may need help, like many have, figuring out which pin is where on the ECU. If so try this: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/how-to-identify-ecu-pin-numbers.246467/

We can discuss the correct way to power all of this from your switches after you solve the running rich problem. There are also threads on the forum that discuss how to make a data logging cable which you will need going forward to keep you race car running.

First page is largely about powering the ECU and fuel pump. The Gold Box MPI relay does most of this when the ECU says so.

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Ignition circuit is next, Power Transistor and Coils.

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This next page covers most of the core sensors. The power for them either comes from the switched output of the MPI relay or from the ECU 5v sensor power.

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Fuel related Parts. You do need a working O2 sensor to make the ECU work right. The two solenoids are not required.
Without a dask board you won't have a speed sensor. You might be able to use a 2G VSS in the transmission rather than the 1G cable if you need the speed signal.

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Other than the required backup power, the rest of this is AC related and you won't have it.

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mushe40

Proven Member
30
1
May 8, 2021
West Enfield, Maine
i was wondering what is the correct size for the fuel injectors, they are all mixed and matched and i want to get a new set of matching injectors.

i think i come to the conclution that my mass air flow sensor that is new is defective not working. i dug out my book and we tested volts which was in my book they are matching to the book, so i have a new one coming, they are going to replace it for me. so i've got to wait till the new maf comes to try it.

i talked to the guy who built this car. he made this wiring discontinued all the stuff went to the dash, and he used the harness that went into the motor area, then he ran seperate switches to run every thing else one thing at a time.

ty for your help i printed all info you sent me i see a lot of stuff to learn there im learning so i can figure this thing out there's another race car near me that they cannot even get it started. they gave up on it. it's online for sale, so im going to learn, maybe i can help that guy out.

ty robert
 
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steve

DSM Wiseman
14,998
1,799
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
i was wondering what is the correct size for the fuel injectors, they are all mixed and matched and i want to get a new set of matching injectors.

The 1G 4G63 NA engine uses 240cc high impedance injectors. They have N240H stamped on one side of the injector below the connector.

It runs with a 47.6 psi base fuel pressure (idle with the vacuum line disconnected and plugged) and the regulator is connected to a vacuum source so it can track the intake manifold pressure. This is so that the injectors deliver the same amount of fuel in a unit of time at idle or at WOT. At idle with the vacuum reference line connected the fuel pressure is reduced by the engine vacuum (converted to psi from inHG)

Since black smoke indicates a very rich condition the injector size and fuel pressure to two key variables as is the engine coolant temp.
 

mushe40

Proven Member
30
1
May 8, 2021
West Enfield, Maine
ok i just took out computer from race car , on the back of it it says 92 talon ecu automatic ,some one wrote on it, im thinking they may used the bigger fuel injector for this computer could you tell me what would be the right injecter to match this 92 talon ecu , ecm which is # MD166255 E2T36572 or should i just get the 240 injectors you mention there is nothing written or stamped out on these injector , im wondering if this is some of black smoke isue . they are sending me a new maf , it will be here sat but i want to get the right injector to match this # computer ty for your help
 

steve

DSM Wiseman
14,998
1,799
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
The ECU for both manual and automatic federal emissions 2.0 NA FWD DSMs is MD166255 from 91 to 93. So assuming the board inside it correct that is the right ECU.

The 240cc injectors for that ECU and car look like this:

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If you look closely on one side is embossed N240H and the other side says INP-059. It's a little clearer in this picture.

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If you don't have these injectors that might be causing the problem
 

mushe40

Proven Member
30
1
May 8, 2021
West Enfield, Maine
Yes I was the new maf was bad then found our it had mustang injector in it also the idle air sensor on throttle body was defective so running really good mow just got it back from vinyl

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mushe40

Proven Member
30
1
May 8, 2021
West Enfield, Maine
so today i took the eclipse to race track it start steaming up windshield .the temp went up to 215 so pulled ouff in to pit road it was hot so i pulled over to side and had them push me to my pit i took off radiater cap after coolong a bit ,then i filled it up with water and started it first started reall hard but then started and alot of white smoke come out of ehaust then cleared up a minute but in the mean time it bubbling hard out radiator , i pulled of the thermostart and found an acorn setting onto of therstart in housing ,so i took out therstart cut the guts out put the ring back in permatex it to see what would happen, it bubbling up fast with water comming out fast straight in the air . so this motor is all brand new part and i baught a 200.00 gasket but i think it blew it out . so my question is i was told at the track that after you torque the head to final tighten spec after you run it alittle bit like 30 minutes you need to go back into the head and re torque them is this true, also i was wondering i ausome that i have to pull this all apart again does any one know the correct torque spec for my 1991 eclipse 2.0 non turbo i really hope it didnt ruin my head this head was baught all remain and perfect please let me know any ideas i have to try to get it apart and fixed by next saturdays race and also what do you recoment for head gasket for this motor for racing ty sorry so long robert
 
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