Gearbox shimming expert needed

[debbie]

Ok Trying my hand at shimming my gearbox. I've done the solder technique and i want to know if one of the numbers ive came to sounds right.

This is for the input shaft.

The solders measured 0.066 and 0.062 average 0.064 + the spec of 0.004 and 0.007.I went with 0.005. So if you follow i got a measurement of 0.069. does this sound right?

I'm going to do it again to make sure plus i made a couple of mistakes.

 

[lowell]

Sounds right for 0.005 preload.

Gearbox rebuild info, and bearing preloads... - Evo123.net - The early Lancer Evo and DSM source

 

[debbie]

Thanks lowell. The link you posted was where i got the settings from. I went with the second one down if you could not tell. But thanks again. like i said, I'm going to do it again.

 

[twicks69]

Sweet, I didn't even have to say anything!

My info went around the world and back all via the Internet!

Woohoo!


Yeah, a 0.005-0.007" preload on the input shaft would work fine; except for the fact that your gap numbers seem really thick; 0.0640" is more than normal by around .015-.020" range. I normally see in the .040-.045" range as a zero value. The solder you should be using for the input shaft, intermediate shaft and front differential should be a starting thickness of 0.062" diameter solder and then the 3/32" diameter solder should be used for the center differential and output pinion shaft. If you are using 3/32" diameter for all the spots you will not properly crush the solder to get an accurate measurement as the case is deflecting.

 

[debbie]

Yep I've been using the 3.32 for all bearings I've heard you can get a tipe of putty for this kind of thing? In the mean time a big thanks twicks. Ill report back as soon as i get the above sorted.

 

[twicks69]

Yep I've been using the 3.32 for all bearings I've heard you can get a tipe of putty for this kind of thing? In the mean time a big thanks twicks. Ill report back as soon as i get the above sorted.

Also, torque your fasteners to 29-30 ft/lbs evenly around the case (star pattern style).

 

[debbie]

Ok got some 0.065 solder and did it all again. But the results seem close to what i had with the thicker solder.

Input shaft = 0.061 and 0.059

intermediate shaft = 0.062 0.059

front diff = 0.052 0.053

And with the thicker solder.

Center diff 0.080 0.080

Output shaft 0.086 0.085


Just to make sure i don't keep the original spacers on? I took mine off.
Just to say as well the 0.065 solder did not seem to squash much making it hard to measure.

 

[bastarddsm]

Are you putting all the cases on with all the fasteners? it does make a difference.

 

[debbie]

The only thing I'm not putting back that i was wondering if i should, is the viscous coupling and the 5th speed gear next to it. The ones under the very top cover

 

[twicks69]

The only thing I'm not putting back that i was wondering if i should, is the viscous coupling and the 5th speed gear next to it. The ones under the very top cover

no, that is not necessary to reinstall for doing the shimming process.

 

[twicks69]

For reference, here is a list of all the shims for the W5M33 transmission:


SHIMS
Part Description Part Number ID Number Thickness (in)
Shim - Input Shaft MD727661 80 0.0315
Shim - Input Shaft MD720937 83 0.0327
Shim - Input Shaft MD720938 86 0.0338
Shim - Input Shaft MD720939 89 0.0350
Shim - Input Shaft MD720940 92 0.0362
Shim - Input Shaft MD720941 95 0.0374
Shim - Input Shaft MD720942 98 0.0386
Shim - Input Shaft MD720943 1 0.0398
Shim - Input Shaft MD720944 4 0.0409
Shim - Input Shaft MD720945 7 0.0421
Shim - Input Shaft MD710454 J 0.0433
Shim - Input Shaft MD700270 D 0.0445
Shim - Input Shaft MD710455 K 0.0457
Shim - Input Shaft MD710456 L 0.0468
Shim - Input Shaft MD700271 G 0.0480
Shim - Input Shaft MD710457 M 0.0492
Shim - Input Shaft MD710458 N 0.0504
Shim - Input Shaft MD706574 E 0.0561
Shim - Input Shaft MD710459 O 0.0527
Shim - Input Shaft MD710460 P 0.0539
Shim - Input Shaft MD706573 - 0.0551
Shim - Input Shaft MD710461 Q 0.0563
Shim - Input Shaft MD710462 R 0.0575

Part Description Part Number ID Number Thickness (in)
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720948 80 0.0315
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720949 83 0.0327
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720950 86 0.0338
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720951 89 0.0350
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720952 92 0.0362
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720953 95 0.0374
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720954 98 0.0386
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720955 1 0.0398
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720956 4 0.0409
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720957 7 0.0421
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720958 10 0.0433
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720595 13 0.0445
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720960 16 0.0457
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720961 19 0.0468
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD720962 22 0.0480
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD712346 25 0.0492
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD712347 28 0.0504
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD712348 31 0.0516
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD712349 34 0.0527
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD712329 37 0.0539
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD712330 40 0.0551
Shim - Intermediate Shaft MD712331 43 0.0563

Part Description Part Number ID Number Thickness (in)
Shim - Center Differential MD736928 13 0.0445
Shim - Center Differential MD736929 16 0.0457
Shim - Center Differential MD736751 19 0.0468
Shim - Center Differential MD736931 22 0.0480
Shim - Center Differential MD726166 25 0.0492
Shim - Center Differential MD718517 28 0.0504
Shim - Center Differential MD718518 31 0.0516
Shim - Center Differential MD718519 34 0.0527
Shim - Center Differential MD718520 37 0.0539
Shim - Center Differential MD718521 40 0.0551
Shim - Center Differential MD718522 43 0.0563
Shim - Center Differential MD718523 46 0.0575
Shim - Center Differential MD718524 49 0.0587
Shim - Center Differential MD718525 52 0.0598
Shim - Center Differential MD718526 55 0.0610
Shim - Center Differential MD718527 58 0.0622
Shim - Center Differential MD718528 61 0.0634
Shim - Center Differential MD718529 64 0.0646
Shim - Center Differential MD718530 67 0.0657
Shim - Center Differential MD718531 70 0.0669
Shim - Center Differential MD721959 73 0.0681
Shim - Center Differential MD721960 76 0.0692
Shim - Center Differential MD721961 79 0.0705

Part Description Part Number ID Number Thickness (in)
Shim - Output Shaft MD726167 28 0.0504
Shim - Output Shaft MD726168 31 0.0516
Shim - Output Shaft MD726169 34 0.0527
Shim - Output Shaft MD724326 37 0.0539
Shim - Output Shaft MD724327 40 0.0551
Shim - Output Shaft MD724328 43 0.0563
Shim - Output Shaft MD724329 46 0.0575
Shim - Output Shaft MD724330 49 0.0587
Shim - Output Shaft MD724331 52 0.0598
Shim - Output Shaft MD724332 55 0.0610
Shim - Output Shaft MD724333 58 0.0622
Shim - Output Shaft MD724334 61 0.0634
Shim - Output Shaft MD724335 64 0.0646
Shim - Output Shaft MD724336 67 0.0657
Shim - Output Shaft MD724337 70 0.0669
Shim - Output Shaft MD724338 73 0.0681
Shim - Output Shaft MD724339 76 0.0692
Shim - Output Shaft MD724340 79 0.0705
Shim - Output Shaft MD724341 82 0.0716
Shim - Output Shaft MD724342 85 0.0728
Shim - Output Shaft MD724343 88 0.0740
Shim - Output Shaft MD724344 91 0.0751

Part Description Part Number ID Number Thickness (in)
Shim - Front Differential MD727658 56 0.0220
Shim - Front Differential MD727659 65 0.0256
Shim - Front Differential MD727660 74 0.0291
Shim - Front Differential MD720937 83 0.0327
Shim - Front Differential MD720940 92 0.0362
Shim - Front Differential MD720943 01 0.0398
Shim - Front Differential MD710454 J 0.0433
Shim - Front Differential MD710456 L 0.0468
Shim - Front Differential MD710458 N 0.0504
Shim - Front Differential MD710460 P 0.0539

 

[twicks69]

All of your numbers you are getting are way high.

Normally, I see a range around .040" for the front diff, .055-.060" for the output pinion shaft, .050-.060" for the center diff, .040" for the input shaft, and .040" for the intermediate shaft.

This is with healthy bearings or new bearings.

What kind of solder are you using? Is it maybe not crushing properly?

What are the current shims that were installed in the transmission?

What did you replace on the transmission?

 

[debbie]

Twicks I'll try and get that info for tomorrow as its getting late here and the wife will start nagging For the moment though i didnt replace anything i just managed to get sand in the gear box. Don't ask The solder i bought to day has on the cover rosin core solder AS7200 alloy, lead free 1.6mm diameter. Probably the wrong kind. Let me know. Thanks Eric.

 

[bastarddsm]

Try and crush a piece with some pliers. If its hard as the knobs of hell, that could be part of your issue.

On the topic of shimming, Tim, how long does a set of input shaft bearings last when its preloaded like above?

 

[debbie]

Seems OK to squash with pliers. What about if i use some 2mm or 0.080 solder for the center diff and output then the 0.065 for the rest. I'm thinking the thicker stuff may be stopping the others squashing properly.

 

[Red 2g GSX]

For reference, here is a list of all the shims for the W5M33 transmission:

Is there such thing as a "kit" that contains some of these shims for each shaft? I'd like to have a handful around so I don't have to wait another week for the shims to come in.

Thanks

 

[twicks69]

Is there such thing as a "kit" that contains some of these shims for each shaft? I'd like to have a handful around so I don't have to wait another week for the shims to come in.

Thanks

Well, I could make one....but it would be EXPENSIVE. Each shim is around $5.00-8.00 WHOLESALE. That puts list around $7.50-11.00 each. As you can see from the list above, it would be very pricey.

 

[Red 2g GSX]

Well, I could make one....but it would be EXPENSIVE. Each shim is around $5.00-8.00 WHOLESALE. That puts list around $7.50-11.00 each. As you can see from the list above, it would be very pricey.

Yea that's what I was afraid of (and explains why I can't find one).

Thanks for the reply though!

 

[twicks69]

Try and crush a piece with some pliers. If its hard as the knobs of hell, that could be part of your issue.

On the topic of shimming, Tim, how long does a set of input shaft bearings last when its preloaded like above?

If it preloaded like what above? His numbers for thickness? Well, that would be the "zero" spec, then he would have to add the necessary preload (input shaft, intermediate shaft, output pinion shaft and center differential) or subtract the necessary end play (front diff) to get the proper thickness shim.

If we were using his listed numbers below:
Input shaft = 0.061 and 0.059 = .0600"
intermediate shaft = 0.062 0.059 = .0605"
front diff = 0.052 0.053 = .0525"
Center diff 0.080 0.080 = .0800"
Output shaft 0.086 0.085 = .0855"

I would want to have preload/endplay of the shafts to be something along the lines below based upon the parameters of power levels and temperature conditions.

Stock/Street Transmissions with less than 400TQ at the crank:

Input Shaft --> 0.004" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.003" - 0.005" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - .0067" ENDPLAY

Street/Strip Transmissions with less than 600TQ at the crank:
Input Shaft --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.007" - 0.009" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.003" - 0.005" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - .0067" ENDPLAY

All out RACE Transmissions that are Rebuilt/Inspected regularly with more than 600TQ at the crank:
Input Shaft --> 0.007" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.008" - 0.010" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.004" - 0.006" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - .0067" ENDPLAY

For Extremely HIGH HP/TQ transmissions (As in ~900-1000+TQ at the crank):
Input Shaft --> 0.007" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.010" - 0.012" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.004" - 0.006" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - .0067" ENDPLAY


I have been known to run higher numbers than these in my transmissions, but for longevity of customer transmissions, these numbers have worked out well. When you start doing like .012-.020" preload on the intermediate shaft, you will fry those bearings real quick; this is something I would only do on a straight-up high-HP trailer car that is only made for the track and is being serviced regularly.


As you can see from these preload values, the shims needed are way out of range of what is manufactured, hence my concern for improper measurement of the shimming process. If he was, say, 0.020" off in his measurements due to the process of measurement with that solder, it means a world of difference. Even better, let's say that his measurements are actually accurate. That means we would need to be stacking shims to get the desired preload. The only one that would be in its "range" is the front differential; which still in fact is on the top end of shim thicknesses, and with a standard roller bearing, you NEED to run it at zero preload; it needs at least 0.000"-0.007" endplay depending on power levels and temperature range.

The higher the temperatures and power levels, the higher the preload values and the less end play you put on the front differential. Otherwise, you would simply swap out the front differential roller bearings for tapered roller bearings and do preload on them.


As for bearing life, I just got a transmission back from a customer from over a year ago; 3 owners later, noticable issues with the clutch having disengagement issues from not being properly adjusted, and likely poor drivers. The gear oil was burnt, and staining the case (overheating), the 3rd/4th hub and slider was purple from high-speed runs, the 3rd/4th hub and slider springs were shattered -- on a single disk clutch -- that means disengagement issues, or very jerky/hard shifting with too low inertia of a clutch/flywheel assembly or a very inexperienced driver. It looks like around 15,000-20,000 miles of abuse/use; all the bearings looked good other than the intermediate shaft inner and outer roller bearings (which were shimmed to 0.010" preload) were getting wear patterns that were substantially more than the other shaft bearings. They were not galling or making uneven wear patterns, but the bearing races were showing some wear patterns that I deemed excessive to reuse, while the other bearings only showed oil contamination wear.

If you are trying to make a transmission to last 100,000 miles, use the factory specifications for everything EXCEPT the input shaft -- please-oh-please put around .004-.007" PRELOAD on it in stock form. If you are trying to make a transmission that can last 30,000 miles on a heavily modified car going to the race track and "spirited" driving, well, I would follow my recommendations listed above.









In this circumstance, you are reusing worn bearings, and that may be the issue; they may be out of spec causing your measurement variations that are significant. Otherwise, it is the process you are doing the solder method, or the physical solder itself.

 

[lowell]

Do you think case flex is an issue with the DSM trans? Either the bellhousing or bearing plate.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/honda billet bellhousing/trubluvtec/BilletKBellhousing01.jpg

Honda-Tech - View Single Post - B tranny weakness, case flex and what else?

 

[twicks69]

I wouldn't go that far. We see thermal expansion of the case, but I rarely ever see a failure of the bellhousing or case sections from power levels with the W5M33 transmission case. Normally, the failures I see are lack of bearing preload on tapered roller bearings causing the gearset to deflect and do gearset damage, or from something else failing catastrophically, or from user error (missing dowels, bad mounts, loose/missing bolts, etc).

Personally, more rigidity of the transfer case (billet center section for rigidity, and billet front section for weight reduction) would be a benefit. If anything, the billet bellhousing would be nice, but exhorbidantly expensive to make.

The 3000GT/Stealth 3SI 5-speed W5MG1 and 6-speed W6MG1 Getrag cases have structural issues that can be remedied by case reinforcements or billet case sections or billet Tcase sections, but these parts are already made for their platform to increase rigidity and simplicity of servicing.

The benefit of a billet bellhousing would be the ability to integrate a hydraulic throwout bearing assembly into it, and strengthen the webbing around the bellhousing flange and tcase mounting flange. Going to a different dimension intermediate shaft and input shaft bearing would also be a benefit, but would require quite a bit of time into R&D, and quite a bit of money to produce a fairly low-volume part.

 

[lowell]

If my math is correct, the transmission case will loosen up about 0.004" per 100F compared to the shafts.


I like the bearing plate between 3rd and 4th gears on this design.

K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum - View Single Post - Sequential box for the K

 

[bastarddsm]

If it preloaded like what above? His numbers for thickness? Well, that would be the "zero" spec, then he would have to add the necessary preload (input shaft, intermediate shaft, output pinion shaft and center differential) or subtract the necessary end play (front diff) to get the proper thickness shim.


If you are trying to make a transmission to last 100,000 miles, use the factory specifications for everything EXCEPT the input shaft -- please-oh-please put around .004-.007" PRELOAD on it in stock form. If you are trying to make a transmission that can last 30,000 miles on a heavily modified car going to the race track and "spirited" driving, well, I would follow my recommendations listed above.

No I was more meaning shimmed like you suggest for a hot street car. I set mine up at stock specs, except for about .006" preload in the input shaft. I didn't figure preloading the hell out of everything else did anything but kill bearings on a lower power car.

 

[jeremy19984g63]

crush the solder and then do like shep told me, leave the trans set togther over night. trust me it made a big difference in the sizes i was getting!!

 

[debbie]

Ok after trying all the above i wasn't getting any where with my measurements. I even tried using modeling clay to see if it was the solder being to hard, and nothing. But just out of curiosity i had done the bottom end of the gearbox (front diff and output shaft) and left it for two days whilst i concentrated on the top half. The measurements came out quite different from when i was leaving it for just a few moments. As follows.

Output shaft is now 0.066 0.066 Preciously 0.085 to 0.086

Front diff is now 0.046 0.046 Previously 0.052 to 0.053


I hope this looks a bit more healthy

Later today I'm going to do the whole lot again, and leave it over night to see what happens.
Again thanks all