Front wheel drive limits

[99Mitsu]

I have been told (by a few people) that front wheel drive cars are only good up to about 220hp because they dont have enough traction (even with upgrades) to handle big horsepower numbers. i need to know for myself if this is true so i'm not beating a dead horse with mods that wont help me.

 

[WILOWNU]

I made 410 hp on my old set up and I was fine with my fwd, granted I had no traction if I tried to launch at a drag strip, but I didnt build my car to take to the drag strip, I built mine to shut up all the v8 assholes that cruise up and down the highway in my area.

Its all about what you want out of your car. If you want a 1/4 mile beast get an awd, or you are going to put on a hell of a smoke show unelss you plan on investing a small fortune in a fwd drag setup (slicks, torsion bars, suspension, axles, upgraded tranny, and such.

I run stage 2 axles from driveshaft shop, an oem trans with an lsd, and falken azenis tires, and I smoked when I would mash it in 1st or 2nd, but not enough to lose control.

 

[JusMX141]

I have been told (by a few people) that front wheel drive cars are only good up to about 220hp because they dont have enough traction (even with upgrades) to handle big horsepower numbers.

Might wanna let this guy know that.

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[JayRolla]

, what do your buddys drive. Show them up when you build your car. Get a good set of street and drag radials and you will be fine.

 

[Guzman08]

.. that pic is crazy..

 

[beating4g63s]

220hp is nothing now a days hell a stock maxima is around there and it's much heavier then a dsm, theres also a old school mirage with a 4g63 thats fwd I believe in 9s maybe low 8s by now.

 

[allthrottle]

I realize most Honda's are a little lighter, but there are hundreds of 400+whp civics and integras that are street driven. Even with drag radials on the street you won't have much traction until 3rd gear, but by the time you reach over 400whp, you should have already invested in a set of wheels and slicks for the track.

 

[Guzman08]

this is from site i got from here...... just so u can know a bit more.Front Wheel Drive T/E/L
Well, there's been some talk recently about how to get the FWDs to hook-up at the line. Aside from spending big bucks converting to an AWD system, there are a few things you can do to get somewhat respectable 60' times at the track. Here's what *I* think (cocky college kid mode ON):
First of all, it's very important to have tires with tread on them (as I found out last weekend :-( ). Seriously though, the tires you choose to run are EXTREMELY important. Throw out those GT+4's and get a nice set of performance tires. It seems that as far as street tires go, the Dunlop SP8000's, and Goodyear GS-C's are pretty sticky tires that will give you decent all-season performance. I currently have some Dunlop D40M2's, and although they lasted a long time and I've had numerous 2.0-2.1 60' times with them, they just break away too easily. I'm currently in the process of getting myself some BFG R1 tires, but I don't expect them to last over 10K miles on the street. After more than 100 runs, I'm pretty confident that sub-2.0 60' times are just not possible with your typical "street" tire. I'll see what both R1 and slicks can do at the ShootOut! While I'm on the subject of tires, inflation is key to getting the power to the ground. At the track, I've experimented with tire pressures in front from 10lbs to 30lbs. If the pressure is too high, you'll just sit and spin and hop. If it's too low, you'll lose optimal contact with the track, and it will slow you down at higher speeds. I've found that the best pressures are around 15lbs in the front, and 55lbs in the rear (reduces drag). Now we get to weight transfer. What you want to do is keep as much of the weight in the front of the car when launching. I'm sure you've noticed that the front wheels seem to lift up under hard acceleration as the weight "transfers" towards the rear of the car.
What I have done is to install GAB adjustable struts/shocks and Eibach springs on my car. The GAB's can be adjusted to virtually prevent weight transfer, while the springs lower the cars center of gravity. I'll be cutting a coil or two off of the front springs to give the car a "raked" attitude to further reduce transfer in the coming month. I've found that the optimal setting for the GABs is 8 in back(full stiff) while leaving the front struts on setting 1(full soft). This seems to let the tires bite into the track more as the front suspension gives a little, while the rear doesn't move. Another benefit of these suspension upgrades is that I have NOT had wheel hop since putting these on. Another thing you can do that I have not tried, is to experiment with "air bags" in the rear shocks. These clever little things let you inflate them inside of the coil to stiffen up the rear shocks even more. They're affordable too if you can't get the GABs. Needless to say, take EVERYTHING out of the hatch (spare, jack, seats, carpet, tools, etc...).
Finally there's the actual launching technique. Believe me, his takes a LOT of practice! Here's what has worked best for me (I think): When you get to the line, bring the RPM's up to 3000. I don't believe that dialing the boost down is the answer to getting a clean launch, rather it's careful use of the gas.
When you launch, DON'T let the RPMs jump up on you, and DON'T take off at full throttle in first gear! I don't know about you guys, but if I get a bad launch, I'll smoke the tires all through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
OK, the light turns green. Now when you feel the clutch start to grab, keep it at half-throttle and gently slip the clutch until it's all the way out, preventing the tires from smoking(keeping it around 3500). Now you have to be very careful with the throttle. It takes some practice, but after awhile you can feel when the tires are on the brink of spinning. Keep depressing the gas SLOWLY as you gain speed, keeping in mind when you feel that your tires are about to let loose. It's very easy to get anxious and floor it, but resist the temptation.
The 1-2 shift is critical to your success at the track. If you've launched right, you should be able to get through 1st without spinning until around 6000. When you go to make this shift keep in mind that if you just floor it, I guarantee that you'll spin all through 2nd and you'll have to get off the gas and bog down. Also remember not to go completely WOT in 1st gear. Any spinning that you're doing when you make the 1-2 shift will just make for a sloppy spinning 2nd gear.
As you go into 2nd, keep the RPMs steady at around 4000. Slip the clutch out until the tires bite, then start giving it some serious gas. Don't go WOT until you're sure that the tires are biting well. At around 6200 RPMs (any higher and you'll start spinning again if you have modified your car), shift into third quickly and don't let the RPMs drop below 4500. Give it full throttle as soon as you let the clutch out.
After you've gone into 3rd you should be set to "speed shift" into 4th in a few seconds (don't take your foot off the gas, but shift VERY fast). The optimal shift point from 3rd to 4th seems to be about 5500 for the stock turbo, and around 6800 for the 16G. I don't know if I've cleared this up, or if I've just further complicated things. It's hard to describe how the car should "feel" as you near the point of spinning. After a few runs you'll see what I mean. Slipping the clutch and careful use of the gas is very important, so I'd also heartily reccomend a CFDF clutch if you're going to do this.
Credited to: Jim McKenna [email protected]

 

[airmail96]

Like everyone else has said, it all depends on what you want to do with the car. Going front wheel drive just means, that the choices you make have to be a little bit different then if you were awd; mainly when it comes to the turbo you chose. If your awd you'll want quick spool and big power, but on a front wheel drive you'll start looking at a turbo that spools a little slower, but can still put the power down within your given rev range. Also you will probably want to look at turbos that are more linear rather then light switchish.

 

[e85_4g63]

Guzman08, you've never used a set of slicks before have you? I'm thinking not (don't take that as a mean comment, I'm just stating it based off your setup of the car and your launching techniques).

 

[habitatguy187]

Guzman08, you've never used a set of slicks before have you? I'm thinking not (don't take that as a mean comment, I'm just stating it based off your setup of the car and your launching techniques).

He copy and pasted that from VFAQ Site - Visual Frequently Answered Questions

 

[e85_4g63]

I see, well I'm not saying it's a good or bad technique, It just seems like that advice was given by someone with either 1) very little drag strip driving experience; 2) they were in a car that wasn't on a good slick; 3) the track prep was horrible; or 4) they just copied it off a certain Honda forum (won't mention any names). Every car is different and everyone's technique is a little different as well, but that seemed a little "neanderthalic" as far as launching goes. (maybe I should shut my mouth before I get into trouble with the moderators over nothing...

 

[Guzman08]

yeah i just wanted to say that having front wheel drive isn't as bad as most make it seem..

 

[99Mitsu]

yeah i just wanted to say that having front wheel drive isn't as bad as most make it seem..

im not saying its bad, im saying i you get more power with AWD or RWD. I mean how much do you have to do for a FWD to run 10s and 11s if its even possble. My eclipse is a FWD with an auto trans. I would like to convert to a manual and it doesnt sound that expensive, its the time and headache factor. Im seriously thinking about saving up a few thou and possibly getting and mid 90s skyline. Im not giving up on DSM, i just need to know how to improve traction and torque to run with the big dogs

 

[JusMX141]

Im seriously thinking about saving up a few thou and possibly getting and mid 90s skyline. Im not giving up on DSM, i just need to know how to improve traction and torque to run with the big dogs

You've never owned or driven an AWD DSM, and you're ready to abandon ship for a much more expensive car that will be impossible to find parts for.

Suit yourself, but keep in mind that AWD DSMs can do amazing things.

 

[Guzman08]

well go to this site and thats a kit for a 420A and you have a 4g63 big differance..
Hahn Racecraft - Automotive Turbosystems

 

[the_mork]

Keep your automatic IMO. There is a lot of debate about which transmission is better and I don't want to get into that fight but don't let yourself feel that you should have a manual transmission just because you're in a play car. The automatic has a lot of advantages especially for a FWD car.

FWD isn't that bad either. I switched to some wider rims which allowed me to run an extra 40mm of tire width which puts me just on the verge of traction just for mashing the gas. If I were launching it would be another story but my car still manages to grip pretty well. This is with a 16g at 22psi by the way. Also until you start making a fair amount of power (think fuel system upgrade) the fwd will be faster in general because it has less drivetrain loss and less weight, sure the AWD will launch like hell but the same mods will allow you to walk past him over a distance. Once you're making a few ponies that goes out the window but you aren't to the point yet.

What type of driving/racing do you want to do anyway? This will heavily influence how important AWD is. Generally spirited street driving doesn't require it at all and (God forbid) in highway racing AWD means nothing (but you shouldn't do that anyway).

 

[Simon Tibbett]

I know a guy with a 350whp Eclipse FWD, traction issues of course, but can make it work.

There are 900whp Civics out there, FWD is harder to get traction, but it can be done.

 

[greg90gs]

fwd is deffinately harder to grip with, my buddy has a 1990 crx with a big hmo h22, wich is a 220 hp motor stock in that little car he has absolutelly no traction, but even with no traction the car will still move and in his case his tires are spinning so much that by the time he got to the end of the track there were two black strips down the track haha it was very funny to see, ut then he got drag slicks and still he is spinning like crazy but somehow it works, he spins so much that the car still is beating corvettes, upgraded wrx sti's, and many many more reputable cars, his crx has bean a big talk here in des moines for a long time, and yes i know dsm and hondas are very different but traction is traction, he doesnt have it but with so much power and a very very beefy suspension you will still turn heads and blow off doors

 

[Dert]

Might wanna let this guy know that.

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that car makes my pants tight

 

[99Mitsu]

im not giving up on DSM, i just need to know how to improve my traction because everyone out here is running mustangs (new and old) or an inline 6 cylinder like infiniti G-35 or V-tech hondas.

 

[the_mork]

Were you having wheelspin issues? If not (I bet you weren't) then why blame traction?

It only takes a few mods to make quite a bit more power than you are making and you will smoke that accord like a fine Christmas ham. The Mustangs wont take much more to beat.

Keep in mind that you are talking about a difference of 20hp when you compare yourself with that Accord, have you considered the difference in vehicle weights? what about rotational mass? Was he a better driver? 20hp is nearly insignificant and in our cars can be made with just a tune and can be made up with good driving.

 

[MichaelSuch]

I think it's the driver mod more than anything. Get some supporting mods, turn your boost up, see how you personally like the car and drive it.

 

[99Mitsu]

Were you having wheelspin issues? If not (I bet you weren't) then why blame traction?

It only takes a few mods to make quite a bit more power than you are making and you will smoke that accord like a fine Christmas ham. The Mustangs wont take much more to beat.

Keep in mind that you are talking about a difference of 20hp when you compare yourself with that Accord, have you considered the difference in vehicle weights? what about rotational mass? Was he a better driver? 20hp is nearly insignificant and in our cars can be made with just a tune and can be made up with good driving.

first off i didnt know it was illeagal to talk about street racing on forums? we've all done it right? anyway the kid had his mom's accord, bone stock and automatic just like mine. the 5th gen accord is 1,295kg. i cant find 2g eclipse wieght. As far as the driver goes, he had it in D the whole time. I used 1st, 2nd then D /w overdrive off

 

[the_mork]

I used 1st, 2nd then D /w overdrive off

If you want to be fast I personally suggest just leaving it in D, you aren't gaining anything by shifting and you could certainly be hurting your run.

I would guess an Eclipse to weigh around 3200lbs (fwd 2g) but I'm not sure off the top of my head. Beyond that there is more to horsepower than just the peak of the curve. If you rode in my car with only about $2000 in mods you wouldn't believe that your car was even related to it and yes it is fwd, and yes I can hook up hard enough that your head will hit the seat. The setup on your car right now consists of important parts to upgrade but are not the most effective parts to start with.


Finally, talk about street racing on a public forum isn't illegal, but it is against the rules at this particular forum and the mods will edit/delete your posts or ban you. A lot of people with our interests have lost friends or known people who have died from reckless driving, I'm fortunate not to be one of them and largely I don't care about street racing talk but I would care about street racing in a residential area and definitely would prefer to hear about racing at a track. If I don't tell you about it someone else will and depending on how much you expound upon the issue and what someone's particular mood might be they may be less polite about it.