FP3 Cams and Manley Springs

[Turbocharged]

It says on the website to use dual springs. What more do you guys need. I have to believe that FP is fed up with email titled "fp3's requires dual valve springs"?

Run whatever springs you want but do so at your own risk.

 

[daren_p]

To answer your question daren p the shimming they are talking about is shimming the spring. Not the retainer. That's what people did back in the day when their was no aftermarket springs for our cars to get the stock springs firmer.

I wasn't asking about the shimming, I know they are talking about shimming the spring And yes this is what they recommended even with an aftermarket single spring.

So do only certain dual springs require the double stepped retainers while some can use the single, because I have seen pics of both styles for our applications?

 

[1SloColt]

Here's my take on it, if the crower 415s can work with their springs/retainers, which are only like %15 more spring pressure than stock, then I don't see why a weaker cam like a 2x or FP3 is gonna need dual springs. The 415s have more lift and duration than every cam on the market for the exception of the 3x cams, and people run the 415s with the single upgraded springs. The 3x is an enormous cam and I probably wouldn't even think about running a single spring with a 3x, but I have seen guys run 2x cams with crower springs/retainers without problems. Give them a little shim and I don't see why they wouldn't work to 8500.

 

[94awdcoupe]

Here's my take on it, if the crower 415s can work with their springs/retainers, which are only like %15 more spring pressure than stock, then I don't see why a weaker cam like a 2x or FP3 is gonna need dual springs. The 415s have more lift and duration than every cam on the market for the exception of the 3x cams, and people run the 415s with the single upgraded springs. The 3x is an enormous cam and I probably wouldn't even think about running a single spring with a 3x, but I have seen guys run 2x cams with crower springs/retainers without problems. Give them a little shim and I don't see why they wouldn't work to 8500.

Heres my take on your take. You have no idea what the fp3 cam looks like. The fp3 cam lobe is much more difficult to follow than a crower 415. The fp3 lobe is square looking. It zaps the valve open very quickly holds it at the max open as long as possible then snaps it back closed at the last instant. cam cards dont tell the story. they dont tell anything of what the lobe looks like at the peak. the 415 lobe is very easy to follow. just a big smooth mountain with no squareness to it at all.

 

[InvaderGSX]

I agree the FP3 cams are totally different compared to the Crowers. Totally different design to compliment the stroker motor which I am very grateful for. Made to product the power down low to 7000 rpm while other agressive cams are made for the 2.0 making power up top. It's jsut confusing with the different info listed everywhere. Now FP sites says dual valve springs required for the FP3's. Before I believe it said recommended. Either way it doesn't matter. I'm going with the FP3X so I need their springs anyways. So soon I'll have a set of Manley springs and titanium retainers for sale! It just sucks I have to drop $800 for this.

 

[1SloColt]

Heres my take on your take. You have no idea what the fp3 cam looks like. The fp3 cam lobe is much more difficult to follow than a crower 415. The fp3 lobe is square looking. It zaps the valve open very quickly holds it at the max open as long as possible then snaps it back closed at the last instant. cam cards dont tell the story. they dont tell anything of what the lobe looks like at the peak. the 415 lobe is very easy to follow. just a big smooth mountain with no squareness to it at all.

Here's my take on your take which was on my previous take, 415s have 288 degrees of advertised duration, which = a lot. The FP3s, like you mentioned are square lobed, designed for the piston speed of the stroker motor which is slower obviously than on a 2.0, this being said, the FP3s have a great deal of duration. They both have fantastic ramp rates, just one has more lift than the other, the 415s being greater. Take a 415 intake cam, chop off 25 thousandths and then compare the two. I personally don't think FP3s would have much a problem running on JAM or crower single springs, especially with some shims. Considering dsmonster is running 2x cams, which has a higher ramp rate, and crower springs up to a decent RPM.

 

[Tom N]

Here's my take on your take which was on my previous take, 415s have 288 degrees of advertised duration, which = a lot. The FP3s, like you mentioned are square lobed, designed for the piston speed of the stroker motor which is slower obviously than on a 2.0, this being said, the FP3s have a great deal of duration. They both have fantastic ramp rates, just one has more lift than the other, the 415s being greater. Take a 415 intake cam, chop off 25 thousandths and then compare the two. I personally don't think FP3s would have much a problem running on JAM or crower single springs, especially with some shims. Considering dsmonster is running 2x cams, which has a higher ramp rate, and crower springs up to a decent RPM.

Did you just say that the piston speed of the stroker is slower?

 

[daren_p]

Here's my take on your take which was on my previous take, 415s have 288 degrees of advertised duration, which = a lot. The FP3s, like you mentioned are square lobed, designed for the piston speed of the stroker motor which is slower obviously than on a 2.0, this being said, the FP3s have a great deal of duration. They both have fantastic ramp rates, just one has more lift than the other, the 415s being greater. Take a 415 intake cam, chop off 25 thousandths and then compare the two. I personally don't think FP3s would have much a problem running on JAM or crower single springs, especially with some shims. Considering dsmonster is running 2x cams, which has a higher ramp rate, and crower springs up to a decent RPM.

While strokers are obviously larger, that doesn't mean their piston speed is slower. The crank is still turning at the same rpms but the pistons have to travel over a longer distance (stroke), this means piston speed in a stroker is faster. This is why they run lower rev limits in a stroker & rev the hell out of a destroked motor. While I haven't actually overlaid the 2x and std 3 cams, like I have with their other cams but from what I recall the std 3 still has an even more agressive "square" shape, even compared to the 2x's.

 

[InvaderGSX]

Update on my research. I went to order the FP3x's today along with the dual valve spring setup. Of course they are out of the springs and won't have them until the end of next week, so I called Ferrea tech support. I was talking to a guy that was basically telling me that it is impossible to have a cam for our motor that needs a spring that requires 280psi over the nose. Hey I'll be honest and tell you I don't know much about all those figures the head guys come up with. He said that is alot more aggressive than the springs he gave to Brent Rau. Basically as you can read earlier in this thrread Manley singles can do 220 psi, SI duals do 240 psi, the Ferrea high pressures can do 250 psi and I found Supertech the guys who make the springs for FP and they said they do 247 psi. So I have no idea what they are talking about needing 280 psi. That's what it says on FP's website and when I called and talked to this tech guy he told me 300psi. Oh well buying from them for $365 is cheaper than buying them direct from Supertech. On FP website if you click on the intake cam it will say dual valve springs required for the FP3, but if you click on the exhaust cams the FP3 cam says dual valve springs recommended. I would say with the FP3's you can probably run any dual valve springs and it will be fine. With the FP3x's I would stick with running Fp's or the Ferrea's.

 

[Turbocharged]

Come to think of it, how often do you here of a dsm floating valves?

 

[1SloColt]

, whoops fellas, yeah yall are definitely right that a stroker has faster piston speeds at same RPM points as a non-stroker, I don't know what the hell I was thinking. Too many beers in me I suppose.

 

[94awdcoupe]

Here's my take on your take which was on my previous take, 415s have 288 degrees of advertised duration, which = a lot. The FP3s, like you mentioned are square lobed, designed for the piston speed of the stroker motor which is slower obviously than on a 2.0, this being said, the FP3s have a great deal of duration. They both have fantastic ramp rates, just one has more lift than the other, the 415s being greater. Take a 415 intake cam, chop off 25 thousandths and then compare the two. I personally don't think FP3s would have much a problem running on JAM or crower single springs, especially with some shims. Considering dsmonster is running 2x cams, which has a higher ramp rate, and crower springs up to a decent RPM.

You are digging a hole. the 415s with their 288 degrees duration is exactly my point. The lobes on the fp3 are only 272-274 duration. they do their business all inside 14 degrees less duration. meaning the valve is closed 7 degrees longer before it opens. and forced to close 7 degrees earlier. the lobes on the fp3 hold the vlave open at max lift longer than the 415. what this all means is the fp3 cams have a very STEEP ramp. you really need to see these cam lobes side by side in order to understand. something you obviously have not done.

the reason fp cams are square is because you cant just keep increasing the duration on turbo cams. increased duration means increased overlap. increased overlap means poor spool and poor midrange. overlap is not good on turbo cars. in order to get a large lobe to work good on a turbo car you have to keep increasing the ramp rate to keep the overlap small. GET iT?

 

[project_tsi]

Well what running the FP 3x's on Crower springs/ retainers on a 2.3l stroker setup? I don't take the stroker past 7200-7400 anyways.

 

[daren_p]

You are digging a hole. the 415s with their 288 degrees duration is exactly my point. The lobes on the fp3 are only 272-274 duration. they do their business all inside 14 degrees less duration. meaning the valve is closed 7 degrees longer before it opens. and forced to close 7 degrees earlier. the lobes on the fp3 hold the vlave open at max lift longer than the 415. what this all means is the fp3 cams have a very STEEP ramp. you really need to see these cam lobes side by side in order to understand. something you obviously have not done.

the reason fp cams are square is because you cant just keep increasing the duration on turbo cams. increased duration means increased overlap. increased overlap means poor spool and poor midrange. overlap is not good on turbo cars. in order to get a large lobe to work good on a turbo car you have to keep increasing the ramp rate to keep the overlap small. GET iT?

Okay everybodys take on someone elses take on someone elses take is really starting to confuse me . I was thinking you had posted all this & then were saying the 415 needed more springs then the 3's, but after I reread your posts I see you are saying the opposite, which I second

 

[InvaderGSX]

I have read stuff about the FP3's, but does anyone on here have the FP3X's in their car right now?????? I saw some posts on people who bought them and that was posted way back in february, but I just talked to him and he hasn't installed them yet. So come on they have been out for a long time now. Someone has to be sporting the FP3X's by now. If you are post something. I have a week or so until the springs come back in stock, so if I still cannot find someone running them I might go to the FP3's since I have found people running those.