FIC 650's making car hard to start when cold?

[rowlex]

Hey...looking for anyone out there that may be having or have had this problem... It seems that after I installed my FIC 650cc injectors my car is hard to start in the morning when it's real cold outside. If the temp is ~50* it has no problem starting but now in the low 40*'s high 30*'s the car will crank, start then die, atleast the first time, sometimes a second time. Then proceed to run like total shit until half-way warmed up(when im holding rpms at 2000). Anyone else experience a problem with them? Anyone fixed it? THANKS!

 

[Tarantula]

I have the same problem. I just installed my FIC 650 yesterday and in the morning, it was hard to start. It would crank over alot and then finally start. After its warmed up it starts real quick. If I leave the car off for 3 hours or so, the same thing happens, hard to start.

 

[rowlex]

tarantula is the best tequila! that stuff is yummy.

Mine has the same symptoms, except I dont have to crank it for very long..it'll start, idle for .5 sec then die. Does yours run like shit till it warms up?? Mine sometimes feels like it's "missing" and the rpm's fluctuate a lot if i try to hold it steady at 2K rpm.

 

[Tarantula]

Well When it starts, it runs pretty normal. I don't move the car until I get 150 degrees F on the logger for coolant temps (I do this religiously) After 150F I drive it and it runs normal as well. If I shut it off and start it up again, it starts right up. I never had a problem with it cranking over long until I installed my FIC 650's.

 

[Tarantula]

No one has an answer? I have heard so much about FIC injectors which is why I went with them. I know that many have installed these injectors (Especially the 650's) and NO One has experienced problems but just us two?
The problem is this:
If the car is cold, starting is hard.
In my case, if I leave the car to cool down, say 3 hours, it produces the same hard starting.
Restarting the car within 15 minutes and not a single problem.
anyone?

 

[truwarrior]

What's ur global and deadtime? I have PTE 680 and it start like the stock 450s.

I know if the fuel pump oring is teared it could cause problems starting...

 

[Tarantula]

I cannot check that.... And my Fuel pump is New, a Walbro 190. Just installed it 2 months ago.
Like I said It starts like my stock ones after its warmed up, just cold is the problem, or after 3 hours...

 

[rowlex]

And my Fuel pump is New, a Walbro 190. Just installed it 2 months ago.
Like I said It starts like my stock ones after its warmed up, just cold is the problem, or after 3 hours...

My fuel pump is also a new walbro 255, I have the aeromotive AFPR to keep control of fuel pressure. I've been playing with my dead time a bit, right now i think it's at 160 (and the car did its same routine this morning, start-> die -> start -> run like crap (although this morning it ran a little better then usual, but temps are a few degrees warmer)), I use to have it at 200, and once at 280. What is the dead time your using?

 

[4geze63]

im having the same issue, I just got some fic 650's,gm maf and upper ic.

Allthough I think after dyno tuning my car the problem will go away. In order to keep it from dieing I just rapidly tap the gas for about 15 seconds then its fine, it has a little stumble untill warmed up but overall not bad.

This is only when the car is sitting for longer then 5 hours in -20 to -35 celcuis

 

[Tarantula]

Well so far I looked more into my problem. When fully cold (next morning) It starts right up. It warms up beautifully and drives good. I shut the car off. Do my thing, come back 3 hours later. TRy to start it and theres the problem again, constant cranking until it turns on. I called up FIC and told him the problem I have. We concluded that my injectors are not leaking due to the fact that when I removed the Fpr (Stock) It shot out high pressure air. No fuel! So I tested the Fuel pump using the diagnostic switch on the firewall. I filled a 2QT bottle pretty fast, no bubbles, just pure fuel) So he (FIC) said something about Vapor lock. So it makes sense. Thats why I only got high pressure air instead of fuel when I removed the fpr. Now I have to figure out why I am getting air in the fuel rail when the car is hot. It happens when the car is off after running and some time pass. :dunno:

 

[AL92]

I have FIC 650 injectors.I have no problems like you described.I have a supra tt pump,
full throttle afpr.Maft.

 

[Tarantula]

Ok, I narrowed it down to being the FPR as the culprit. I'm going to replace it and see it it helps. It starts nice in the mornings but on hot starts, it hesitates and take a bit longer to start. It possible that the FPR is not holding pressure properly when hot. I took off my Fuel pump to check the O-ring and it was fine. I bought new replacement O-rings. So the only part left to replace (Which is the original stock part) is the FPR. (Mitsubishi PART #315315)
For those wondering where to get the O-rings...
I have found the part # for the Fuel pump O-ring which anyone should be able to find in PepBoys autoparts store. The O-ring is made by Borg Warner and the part # is 274571 Fuel injection seal. It costed me $1.99 and it comes with 2 brand new O-rings.
I'll keep the updates.

 

[Tarantula]

Today I'm going to replace the fuel filter to see if I have the same problems. I still don't have the afpr yet. I'm also ordering a fuel guage to check my pressure with my stock fpr. Any other suggestion to figure this problem out? I have received a private message with one other member having the same exact hot starts problem I'm having. I don't know if its a FIC problem or not as I have never heard of this problem until it has hapened to me. With one other having the same problem, it makes it an official problem. Any one with suggestions would be appreciated.

Currently what info would help is if you are running a Walbro 190, stock or afpr, if you changed your fuel filter right when you changed to the 650cc injectors. When you installed the 650cc, did you install anything else with them i.e. if you had the afpr prior to installing injectors. Also I am tuning with SAFC II so people with the SAFC as a tuning tool would be helpful.
Thanks

 

[AL92]

I installed my FIC 650s at same time as new supra tt pump and full throttle afpr.I have car set to stock fuel pressure.I have a fuel pressure gauge.I have zero problems car starts fine and runs fine.No compaints at all from the injectors or fuel system.Possibly the problem is in tuning or you are overrunning the fuel pressure reg if you have a too big pump and no reg.Maybe the problem is ignition related sometimes igniton can fool you into thinking you have a fuel problem.
I have a slight problem when warm car seems to sometimes start and stumble slightly but then in a minute or so its fine again.

 

[Tarantula]

I have a slight problem when warm car seems to sometimes start and stumble slightly but then in a minute or so its fine again.

That problem you state is part of the problem I have with my hot or warm starts. It would start up and stumble. If I am looking at the logger, I notice that the STFT goes to +17 which means lean. This is when the car is stumbling abit. Than after a minute or two, the STFT's would return to Zero and the car would be great. Now as for tuning, Low throttle tuning is easy and I have it set for perfect 0/0 in all RPMs including idle (NE point starts at 800) So I can see that it is lean when the car is hot or warm upon startup. On the other hand when starting cold (As in next morning) I have zero stumbling upon startup. STFT's are beautiful on +2 to 0 as it is adding fuel to warm up (Normal startup procedure for my car)and adjusting back and forth.
Its like as if my fuel rail gets empty only on hot starts which would explain why the STFT goes to max +17 (ECU's maximum adjustments are +17 to -17) So My ideas were FPR does not hold pressure when hot due to heat affecting spring pressure in the FPR (Original stock)or injector only leaks when hot a little bit. If I hit the gas than let go quickly upon hot startup, the car would stumble when RPM's fall back to 750. If I hold the gas for a little while than let go, the car would be fine. After its fine no more problems. So, my theory, when I hold the gas peddal, my fuel rail fills up with pressure after which pressure exists eliminating the problem. After stumbling has stopped and I have driven for a bit, if I shut the car off and than turn it back on, its perfect, no stumble. (PRessure still exists) ONLY after it has been sitting for a while after its hot. (Like 1-3hours) My second thought is Vapor lock in the rail when hot. Pressure still exist but more like air pressure. when the car cools down (Overnight) no more air bubble and car starts fine. I don't know but step by step we'll get it.

 

[Tarantula]

UPDATE
WELL I have been researching further into my problem and have an update. I have been researching the Fuel pressure regulator (Which will be upgraded) and my search led me to the Fuel pressure Solenoid. Heres a quote from Taboo's web site on the solenoid:

The fuel pressure solenoid can be safely removed. Its function is to increase fuel pressure on startup by closing the vacuum path to the fuel pressure regulator which is suppose to prevent the fuel from evaporating when the engine is hot.

Well I bypassed the vacuum hose and that seemed to help the problem. The car starts easier on hot starts but still there is a hint of "Problem" still lurking. It no longer corrects to +17 (only to+10) and the stumbling is very little on startup. Almost gone but not quite. Cold startup is still perfect with the vacuum bypass. For 2G you cannot disconnect the FPS or you will receive a CEL P1105. Just route the hose direct from the manifold to the FPR. (With the T to the boost guage of course )
I'm also looking into the Coolant temperature sensor since it is part of engine startup. Based on the temperature sensor, the car decides how much fuel to dump in the cylinders upon starting.

 

[Tarantula]

I have also found this. Now this is exactly describing my problem and the solution. I hope that this does the trick. I am putting an order for the AFPR and guage right now and will update with new info when I install it or if I clear the problem before that.

Originally Posted by psychlow
To me, it sounds like you have an issue with the fuel pressure bleeding out of the lines when you stop the car. If you turn it off and start it right back up, does it start right away? Then when you let it set for an hour or so, and come back, is it hard to start?

If so, the fuel pressure is bleeding out of the lines. Find the leak and fix it - it may be coming from your FPR.

 

[Module Unknown]

Well I'd like to introduce myself to this thread. This past weekend I installed a set of FIC 650 injectors (along with a 95 EPROM ECU and keydiver chip) only to find myself in the same boat as Tarantula and Rowlex.

Car starts up beautifully on cold starts. It also fires right up if I only shut it off for a few minutes and come right back. However, if I let it sit fo 30+mins up to a few hours and come back, I have to crank it for a while or a few times and when it does finally start up it may or may not sputter for a couple seconds, and sometimes I need to give it a little throttle to keep it alive. Of course after that, everything seems fine again.

I just don't understand why this would start happening only after swapping injectors when everything was fine before.

Here's a brief summary of my fuel system. I have a Walbro 190 fuel pump (has not been rewired), stock fuel lines, stock fuel rail, stock FPR, and I've replaced my fuel filter recently. ...and of course the FIC 650's. I do have a fuel pressure gauge (not yet installed) that I plan to put in to see if I'm bleeding off fuel pressure. I also have a FullThrottleSpeed AFPR sitting here that I can install and see if that helps to correct the issue. Unfortunately I will not have any time to work on the car for probably a week or more from now, but when I do i'll update the thread.

And just to add a littele more, I decided to stop by a friends shop on my way home from work today. He gave me a number of suggestions to try out, basically everything that has been said in this thread or is able to be found by searcing the forums. First, get a fuel pressure gauge to see if I (we) are bleeding off fuel pressure. He had also mentioned that there may be a one way valve somewhere in the fuel system that's meant to keep up fuel pressure that could be leaking (he wasn't being DSM specific). But again that's something I wouldn't know until I get that fuel pressure gauge on. He also suggested that It might be the FPR, and that I should try out the AFPR that I have. If that doesn't work, perhaps bump up the fuel pressure a bit from stock at that point and see if that helps keep pressure up in the system. Then he also went on about the cooling system and possibly trying to find a way to get the cooling fan(s) to come on a bit sooner and/or run for a bit after the car shuts down to keep the fuel rail/lines from heating up from the ambient temperature present after shutting the car off. Of course if that works I would think it would only be masking the problem. I'd hope the AFPR fixes it instead. I can hope. It's frustrating staring at a part that might fix my problem, but I don't have time to install it right now!

 

[rowlex]

My prob is actually dif. mine is hard to start in the cold, runs like shit until its warmed up. if the outside air temp is above 45* or so it starts and runs pretty well.

i've got all fuel support mods required. (injectors/afpr/pump/dsmlink)

 

[Tarantula]

I'm going to finish off with the info on the solution to my problem. After re routing the vacuum line of the FPR, it seemed to solve the hard starts. Its almost like either that cured it or the injectors needed time to adjust. (Though it sounds stupid) Car slowly but surely became normal.
As for the Full throotle AFPR, I FINALLY got it today after a 3 month wait. Its installed and now i'm happy.

 

[gsxtacy]

funny....I have had my FIC 650's on for over a year and I have started my GSX in >30* temps without a single problem.

I noticed that when I lean out the SAFC to -35 for the 1000 rpm setting I get "some" hard starting, But I just leave the SAFC set to -30ish and never have ANY problems.

wierd.

gsxtacy

 

[Tarantula]

funny....I have had my FIC 650's on for over a year and I have started my GSX in >30* temps without a single problem.

I noticed that when I lean out the SAFC to -35 for the 1000 rpm setting I get "some" hard starting, But I just leave the SAFC set to -30ish and never have ANY problems.

wierd.

gsxtacy

-30 for Idle??? Are you sure? I have mine set at -12 and thats with Walbro 190 rewired. How did you manage to get that figure? Are your STFT and LTFT at 0? I would imagine that its pegged at 17

 

[Omega]

Sorry to bring up an oldish thread, but I am in the same boat as rowlex.

I was able to "tune it out" with the stock ECU, but now I have a chipped '95, my MAFT is +10% and the AFC is +50. Cool/cold days after not starting are a joke until it warms up.

I know it has something to do with the injectors, the RC 550's I had were fine but the FIC's are a bi***.

I bypassed my FP solenoid ages ago because the boost gauge would not work after a hot start.

The only thing I can come up with at the moment is that my stock FPR is on the fritz when cold.. yet the FP gauge I have shows normal.. 45 PSI at idle with no line connected (if I recall correctly)

I really don't get what is goingn on.

 

[DSMTalonAWD51]

I dont think the problem lies in the FPR. FIC and Delphi injectors have different deadtime than stock injectors. Since they are larger than stock, they take longer to open, and the lower rpm's/pulsewidths will be too lean if this is not corrected for. This is why 1k rpm setting is around -12ish while the rest are -20ish for 660's. In addition, if you take a look at the actual design of the sprayer on FICs and Delphis, they have a 'shower head' design, the sprayer holes are huge, and do not atomize the fuel NEARLY as well as Densos, RC's , and the stockers.
Because of this, you have trouble during a cold start. The intake monifold is cold, which makes it even harder if at all possible to atomize the fuel. You are just squirting fuel and until the manifold warms up to assist it will drive worse.

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

Im also having the same problem with the cold/warm start. My car will die or if i get on it then back off and push in the clutch it'll stall, or my rpms will drop to like 400 stay there for a sec, then jump back to 800. I havent had a problem with tuning my car since i put them in although it just may be ironic. Also, when i turn my key SOMETIMES, my ecu will click real fast, i know thats my pump relay, but do you think that would make me lean out under boost over 16psi??? Im just having a REAL hard time tuning my car right now. Lastly, about the whole fpr, my car is a 90 tsi 5 speed, but i have a stock auto fpr w/ the vac line going to the intake mani. Do you think the combination of the 255 and fic 650s would make my car lean out up top and/or in between shifts (knock) or does that just affect my base fuel pressure? HELP!