Exhaust Manifold | Use Studs or Bolts?

[kxcntry99]

I have a bit of a project coming up and I need some opinions what I should be using. Last week I heard an exhaust leak from under the hood. When I popped the heat shield off I found that 3 of the 4 turbo bolts were so loose they were spinning around. I tightened everything up to spec but it looks like I blew the manifold turbo gasket when the bolts were so loose.

So I am going to need to replace the mani-turbo gasket. I was going to go with the 4 layer manifold gasket and the 7cm turbo gasket from RRE. Hopefully the 7cm will fit my EVO big 16g turbo and GT manifold. While I have the manifold off I am going to replace both gaskets and replace the existing bolts with new. I have been looking around and it looks like I would be best off using stainless steel.

Here is my first question: I have found some kits that are all SS Studs and some others that are a mix of studs and bolts. Which is better to use? What I have now is a mix of studs and bolts but, I am not sure if that is OEM or not. Also I have found stud kits that have copper plated lock nuts, where as other have all SS nuts. check out this site www.ssstuds.com for more details. What is the difference? I know that copper is a softer metal so does it create a better seal with the manifold?

Also, should I be using anti-seize or something else on the studs/bolts?

My final question is what can I do to make sure that the turbo bolts do not work themselves loose again? I don't know how tight the bolts were on before and I am not sure how they would have worked free, but is there something I can do or new bolts I should get to keep from blowing another gasket?

 

[talonDSMerr]

OEM is 3 bolts and one stud but I actually replaced all 4 with ARP bolts when I put in a 2g manifold. It makes it a lot easier to take them off in the future, as does putting antisieze on them before tightening them down. The best way to keep them from working themselves out is probably tightening them down real good, and retightening them or checking them after long drives.

 

[kxcntry99]

Thanks for the quick reply talonDSMerr! Is there any upgraded bolts I should look to use to bold the turbo the manifold or is stock pretty much what I got?

Also, any opinion on the copper nuts?

 

[snowborder714]

I would use the SSStuds manifold stud kit (or the nice kit from FFWD - all the way at the bottom) and OEM bolts (no studs) and washers for the turbo to manifold. There have been some problems with the ARP turbo bolts in the past (not sure if they're fixed nwo) and OEM is always a good choice.

I would use anti-seize on them. And remember when installing them, torque them down, run the car through a heat cycle (warm up and cool down) and retorque. Then check it again for a safety measure.

 

[kxcntry99]

snowboarder -- thanks for the link those studs look BEAUTIFUL!!!!!! But I don't know that I want to drop $75 for 'em. I havn't seen any posts talking about the ARP's breaking so I will have to look it up but for $40 I think I might give them a try first.

 

[snowborder714]

Here's one review on ARP turbo bolts:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/287711-arp-stainless-steel-turbo-bolts.html

And why spend $40 on ARP's when OEM's are proven to last and cost less?

 

[andy4g63]

Don't go there!!! This is a nightmare. For the manifold you could use stainless studs and nuts, but for turbo to mani bolts it is a NO NO. I had these arp'S STAINLES and what a PITA to remove them. In areas, where is hot like exh. mani, don't use stainless. Use regular high grade steel. Like OEM. It is not for the money, it is just easier.

 

[kxcntry99]

Thanks for the help guys and sorry for the confusion. The $40 I was referring to was for the head to manifold studs I found here instead of the $75 ones that snowboarder posted the link to.

Thanks for the info though on the ARP turbo bolts I will deff. stay away from those and just go with OEM if it looks like I need to replace them.

Still no opinions on the copper vs SS nuts??? Has anyone had experience with either?

 

[Boosted98gsx]

You want to use a material that will expand equally with the material of the manifold / turbine housing. If you don't, your bolts will seize from oxidation getting into the threads.

 

[romeen]

Like the others said, stay away from the ARP bolts. Preferably, get the oem bolts that have "11" on the head of the bolt.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/300511-11-exhaust-mani-turbo-bolts.html

Don't forget the oem cone washers. You need TWO washers per bolt stacked in the proper way to keep the bolts from potentially backing out.

 

[jking29]

For the nuts, just use hardened steel nuts with copper based anti-sieze. Use copper based anti-sieze on every nut, stud or bolt on the exhaust side. Do NOT use regular silver based anti-sieze. It does not have a high enough temperature rating to deal with the temperatures a turbo car will see.

 

[kxcntry99]

WOW all great posts guys! Thanks for the load of information. I am glad I started asking about the turbo bolts since my primary concern with this post was the studs!!!

After looking more at the link snowboarder posted I was actually looking at going with these...FFWD Connection
According to the listing they should not have a problem with breaking or seizing but it looks like people are saying that OEM is even better than these??? Or was that an older/different product from FFWD?

I will deff use the copper anti-seize on everything but I am going to have to start seaching about the 7cm gasket from RRE. After reading the post Romeen added it looks like that may cause some problems.

I will also start trying to find some of the OEM cone washers. Its a real b--ch not having a mitsu dealer close by.

Thanks again for all the invalualbe info everyone!!!!

 

[snowborder714]

I would use this combination:

From the link I posted for FFWD, those are for your exhaust manifold to head (last kit on the page - Exhaust Manny Stud Kit). Use either those or the SSStuds set. If you use the FFWD set, let me know how they work out for you as those are the ones I plan on getting when I need them.

For your turbo to exhaust manifold to turbo, use 4 OEM bolts and 8 OEM washers (2 per bolt). Don't use the ARP set or any set listed on the FFWD page, as those are ARP's.

I think you may have been reading/hearing people confusing the two different sets.

 

[kxcntry99]

Thanks for the help snowboarder -- I knew people were saying to stay away from the ARP Turbo bolts but I didn't know that the ones from FFWD were the same thing.

At this point it looks like I will be good with the following:

4 Layer Head to Manifold gasket from RRE
7cm SS gasket from RRE
SS Studs for the head from here
OEM Turbo bolts and double sets of cone washers from here
plus copper anti-seize on everything

From all the reviews I have read and the help you guys have provided here I think I will be good.

 

[snowborder714]

Have you researched SS vs. copper gaskets? I haven't heard anything good about the SS gaskets, especially the solid turbo to manifold ones. I'd consider getting both copper gaskets (exhaust to head and exhaust to turbo) from FFWD. You can also pick the same things up from Summit Racing, just without the FFWD logo.

Here's 2 threads on the SS gaskets:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...engineering-stainless-steel-turbo-gasket.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...tainless-steel-7cm-turbo-manifold-gasket.html

 

[turbosax2]

Just a little clarification on the SCE copper gaskets. This exhaust manifold gasket is the same as FFWD carries. However, Summit racing does not carry the revised version of the turbo gasket - FFWD is the only place you can currently get that as far as I know. Summit racing only has the original version.

A little clarification on the turbo bolts. FFWD used to carry SS ARP turbo bolts, which is what everyone has complained about on these forums. They switched to the black oxide finished bolts a few months or so ago, but I don't think anyone has reviewed them yet. I would stick with OEM.

 

[romeen]

Have you researched SS vs. copper gaskets? I haven't heard anything good about the SS gaskets, especially the solid turbo to manifold ones. I'd consider getting both copper gaskets (exhaust to head and exhaust to turbo) from FFWD. You can also pick the same things up from Summit Racing, just without the FFWD logo.

Here's 2 threads on the SS gaskets:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...engineering-stainless-steel-turbo-gasket.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...tainless-steel-7cm-turbo-manifold-gasket.html

OP, sounds like you may have already seen this. But just in case and to add to the links that Brian gave.......

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/293899-look-what-happened-ss-turbo-gasket.html

Aslo, the convex washers will have stamped dots on one side. You stack the two washers so that the sides with the dots are facing away from each other (facing each other would probably work also). As long as the dotted side of one isn't placed against the unmarked side of the other. The idea is to create a spring-like effect. It'll make sense when you see them.

 

[wishihadatalon]

I see that others have posted but I thought I would give my 2 cents. I broke 2 sets of ARP manifold to turbo bolts. One when installing and one when I took them off for the first time. Stick with OEM and some copper antiseize.

For the head to manifold side, I would stick with studs and nuts. I wouldn't chance threading into the aluminum head that many times. I have used the FP ones and while the taper locking thread of the copper washers is nice, it is impossible to get them off and they ended up pulling the studs out when I tried to take it apart. The copper also scratched off really easy when I tightened the nut. Back to SSStuds.com kit and I have had no issues ever. Just make sure you heat cycle everything and then re-torque when the car is hot.

 

[kxcntry99]

I have read many posts on the 7cm turbo gasket like this one: here But, it seemed that the outcome was that you just need to make sure everything is lined up right before you really start torqueing it.

I have actually been looking for some reviews on copper gaskets but I havn't seen many write-ups. That being said I thought I would stick with the standard SS. If someone can link a post reviewing the copper gaskets I would appreciate it. This is the only one I found of any great relevance:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/159216-turbo-manifold-gasket-use-copper-stainless-gasket.html

Thanks for the clarification on the FFWD turbo bolts turbosax. I am debating going with the black oxide ones then over the OEM. The technical specs of that metal sound promising.... (of course I would take no chances and throw on some of that RRE high temp anti-seize )

 

[turbo addict]

For what it is worth, I have the ffwd arp head to manifold stud kit. And I absolutely love them. I have had too many of the stock studs break on me (4 while they were just on the car driving) and a few taking them off to change turbos. I just took my turbo setup off and had ZERO problems after running them for a year and a half to 2 years, (and this is on my daily, which has been on e85 and 35psi all year and 30psi and many tanks of 110leaded the previous year).

They came off with ease and look as good as when I put them on, they weren't beaten down at all (the stockers look like death after running them for any length of time, it is nice to finda part that you don't have to worry about!

I have a second set that I will be putting on my race car when I get it up and running.

Also ffwd was very helpful, a good vendor.

PS. I would recommed tightening them every few thousand miles.