EVOIII 16G Slow Spool

[kiddsm95]

Today I installed a MHI E316G on my 2g Eclipse with stock fuel system boosting 15 psi. Prior to the install, my T-25 was fully spooled by 3k and my A/F ratio gauge always read stoick (aka yellow). Once the E316G was installed the highest reading off the A/F gauge was very lean (first red bar) and doesn't exceed red. Now the E316G doesn't hit full boost until after 4k, and the car just doesn't pull the way it used to.

Searching around the forums makes me want to think that the wastegate actuator is not fully closing, therefore it needs to be shimmed. Has anyone with a E316G had to shim the WGA? Would having an open WGA cause the A/R to read lean?

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[SBR Joe]

Today I installed a MHI E316G on my 2g Eclipse with stock fuel system boosting 15 psi. Prior to the install, my T-25 was fully spooled by 3k and my A/F ratio gauge always read stoick (aka yellow). Once the E316G was installed the highest reading off the A/F gauge was very lean (first red bar) and doesn't exceed red. Now the E316G doesn't hit full boost until after 4k, and the car just doesn't pull the way it used to.

Searching around the forums makes me want to think that the wastegate actuator is not fully closing, therefore it needs to be shimmed. Has anyone with a E316G had to shim the WGA? Would having an open WGA cause the A/R to read lean?

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks.

First off i wouldnt be to worried about what your AF gauge is saying, they are about as accurate as a blind sniper. I would start by making sure you do not have any pre turbo exhaust leaks. If that checks out check for boost leaks...if that checks out, i see that you dont have any fuel upgrades. 15 psi on a stock fuel system, on an E316g with bolt ons is probably not very safe. I have seen very lean conditions cause slow spool, try turning the boost down and see if its any better. Also, is the turbo brand new? New ones come with new WG actuators.....it should not need shimmed, especially for only 15 psi. Check everything in thing in this order and get back to us.


PS. do you have any logging devices?

 

[kiddsm95]

There shouldn't be any pre-turbo leaks, as the car was running prefectly fine before the E316G install and the manifold was not removed.. I purchased the MHI turbo brand new as well as the 2g install kit, which included brand new gaskets, j-pipe, etc... I'm running a turbo xs dual stage MBC so I'll try turning the boost down and see if that helps. Question is what boost is safe for stock fuel and E316G.

I'll check for boost leaks tomorrow.

 

[SBR Joe]

There shouldn't be any pre-turbo leaks, as the car was running prefectly fine before the E316G install and the manifold was not removed.. I purchased the MHI turbo brand new as well as the 2g install kit, which included brand new gaskets, j-pipe, etc... I'm running a turbo xs dual stage MBC so I'll try turning the boost down and see if that helps. Question is what boost is safe for stock fuel and E316G.

I'll check for boost leaks tomorrow.

Its hard to say without a real WB02 or anything to monitor knock, i would keep it low though, around 10 psi just to be on the safe side until you AT LEAST get a 255lph fuel pump. Let us know what you find out.


Joe

 

[kiddsm95]

I've actually got an Evo 9 MR fuel setup (Injectors & pump), so this will be the route I'm going with the fuel once I get around to installing it. Planning on 19-20 psi once I get the link. Another question that I've been thinking about. If I bottom out both stages of the mbc, could this change the pressure/load on the wastegate spring, thus bring the A/F ratio back to normal?

I'll keep you informed on the boost leak test.

Thanks.

 

[SBR Joe]

I've actually got an Evo 9 MR fuel setup (Injectors & pump), so this will be the route I'm going with the fuel once I get around to installing it. Planning on 19-20 psi once I get the link. Another question that I've been thinking about. If I bottom out both stages of the mbc, could this change the pressure/load on the wastegate spring, thus bring the A/F ratio back to normal?

I'll keep you informed on the boost leak test.

Thanks.

Ok, that will work great for your fuel setup... (the EVO pump rewired actually outflows a walbro 190 rewired.) And yes bottoming the MBC will change the pressure load on the wg but it will only affect the boost, and with it bottomed out will run A LOT of boost, so not a good idea. Your AF gauge is not accurate enough to judge, you would be better off with an EGT gauge. Try just for the hell of it to run a straight vacuum source to the WG actuator completely bypassing the MBC and see if it spools faster, it will creep but will hit 10 psi and hold it for a while before starting to creep. At least it will give you an idea, and will either tell you your problem or at the least eliminate the MBC being an issue.

Let us know the results.


Joe

 

[kiddsm95]

Sorry, by "bottom out" I meant <10psi...thus bottoming out on the negative side. Is this what you were referring to? So by running a vacuum source, you mean to run the line from the "j-pipe" directly to the WGA? Are you saying that the mbc could be the source of the slow spool?

I don't mean to be difficult, but I'm just trying to understand why the T-25 ran perfectly at 15 psi yet I'm having so much trouble with the E316G.

 

[slow4g6392tsi]

An EVO III 16G flows many more cfms of air/min than the T25. Meaning 15psi on the new turbo requires a lot more fuel than 15psi on the stock turbo. It makes sense to me that way but I could be wrong.

 

[kiddsm95]

The E316G flows more cfm, but this is probably at higher rpm as well. I'm also thinking that MHI might have measured this flow rate at the compressor housing. I may be crazy but, given the fact that the intercooler piping diameter hasn't changed, thus the interior volume inside the pipe is the same...then shouldn't 15 psi, be 15 psi? PSI = lb / in^2... 15 lbs in the same amount of volume seems like it would be the same regardless of the turbo.

Can someone explain this?

 

[wishnfor4g63T]

although this is redneck i think your trying to get to sciencey with it. It's like a big fan vs a small fan. The bigger fan doesn't have to spin as fast as the little to create the same amount of air. Like everyone else has posted it's gotta be a boost leak. When you do the test it will be enough proof why it doesn't pull as hard.

Good Luck

 

[Spoolin98]

Sorry, by "bottom out" I meant <10psi...thus bottoming out on the negative side. Is this what you were referring to? So by running a vacuum source, you mean to run the line from the "j-pipe" directly to the WGA? Are you saying that the mbc could be the source of the slow spool?

I don't mean to be difficult, but I'm just trying to understand why the T-25 ran perfectly at 15 psi yet I'm having so much trouble with the E316G.

Yes that is what he means, run the vacuum source right to the WGA, completely bypassing the MBC.

 

[Spoolin98]

I always assumed that the more CFMs a turbo flowed the more air your putting in the motor regardless of how many lbs you are running.

For example,
If you run a 50 trim at 20lbs and a EvoIII at 20lbs, the 50 trim flows more cfm's, therefore needing more fuel to go with the air than the EvoIII at the same lbs of boost. Correct me if Im wrong?

Anyway, to the OP, the T25 is a pretty crappy turbo compared to the EvoIII. At 15lbs it was producing hotter compressed air than the EvoIII at 15lbs. Since the EvoIII is producing colder temps, denser air, it would technically need more fuel since the air is denser. This could be the reason why you A/F gauge is reading more lean now then before.

 

[meliketoball]

The t-25 is a way smaller turbo compared to the 16g. I didn't look at your info but, the turbo spool depends on application you are running. If you have a stock exhaust system etc. with the 16g , the turbo will obviously have a lot more lag compared the the t-25. And not to mention the stock fuel system. You are leaning because your fuel system is stock! You just don't have the supporting modzzz to keep up with the amount of air the 16g is producing.

 

[kiddsm95]

Update: So today I initally thought that there could have been a pre-turbo leak, therefore the turbo was dropped again. No pre-turbo leak evidence was found on the gasket or either the turbo or manifold flanges. Next I tried the boost leak test, nothing. Next step was to try by passing the MBC, ran a direct hose from the j-pipe to the wastegate...still nothing. At this point I was fresh out of ideas so I tried shimming the WGA, which also resulted in nothing.

My car has the following mods, all on stock fuel.

E316G (non-ported & non-clipped).
Injen Intake.
EvoIX MR BOV.
3" dp w/ no cat.
3" Exhaust.

Is there anyone here that's running an E316G on stock fuel? I can't be the only one... What has your experience been like with your setup?

I'm to the point where I believe my A/F gauge, and I'm going to accept the fact that my car is running lean. I guess it kind of makes sense because the idle is normal, but when I try to boost it takes about a week to kick in. Once I'm boosting, it feels fairly rough and the car is not very happy. (Idle = less fuel, while boost = more fuel).

The EvoIX MR fuel pump is going in next week, and hopefully I can install the injectors next weekend.

I'll keep you all posted.

 

[meliketoball]

Update: So today I initally thought that there could have been a pre-turbo leak, therefore the turbo was dropped again. No pre-turbo leak evidence was found on the gasket or either the turbo or manifold flanges. Next I tried the boost leak test, nothing. Next step was to try by passing the MBC, ran a direct hose from the j-pipe to the wastegate...still nothing. At this point I was fresh out of ideas so I tried shimming the WGA, which also resulted in nothing.

My car has the following mods, all on stock fuel.

E316G (non-ported & non-clipped).
Injen Intake.
EvoIX MR BOV.
3" dp w/ no cat.
3" Exhaust.

Is there anyone here that's running an E316G on stock fuel? I can't be the only one... What has your experience been like with your setup?

I'm to the point where I believe my A/F gauge, and I'm going to accept the fact that my car is running lean. I guess it kind of makes sense because the idle is normal, but when I try to boost it takes about a week to kick in. Once I'm boosting, it feels fairly rough and the car is not very happy. (Idle = less fuel, while boost = more fuel).

The EvoIX MR fuel pump is going in next week, and hopefully I can install the injectors next weekend.

I'll keep you all posted.

All air but no fuel. After you get your MR fuel pump and your injectors (550cc at least.) Get something to tune your car with.

 

[kiddsm95]

OK, the Evo IX MR fuel pump (rewired) & injectors are installed. Although the A/F gauge is still reading lean, I can definately tell by the smell of the exhaust that the car is running rich.

The slow spool condition has pretty much gone away since installing the MR fuel system, but now I have another problem. The car still doesn't pull as hard as it used to... Is this because the car is running too rich? Will leaning it out make more power?

I also installed an SAFC2 for a tuning device, but I don't have the multiplex OBD2 connector yet so I'm not able to take any logs to share with you guys, but I'll post some logs up when the connector comes in.

Just to re-iterate, there are no boost leaks and the WGA is still shimmed. I plan on taking the WGA shims out tomorrow as I don't think they serve a purpose.

LMK what you think about the top end power.

 

[SBR Joe]

OK, the Evo IX MR fuel pump (rewired) & injectors are installed. Although the A/F gauge is still reading lean, I can definately tell by the smell of the exhaust that the car is running rich.

The slow spool condition has pretty much gone away since installing the MR fuel system, but now I have another problem. The car still doesn't pull as hard as it used to... Is this because the car is running too rich? Will leaning it out make more power?

I also installed an SAFC2 for a tuning device, but I don't have the multiplex OBD2 connector yet so I'm not able to take any logs to share with you guys, but I'll post some logs up when the connector comes in.

Just to re-iterate, there are no boost leaks and the WGA is still shimmed. I plan on taking the WGA shims out tomorrow as I don't think they serve a purpose.

LMK what you think about the top end power.

Its probably just a tuning issue now, too much fuel and the ecu doesnt know what to do. And stop looking at the AFR gauge for the love of god!! , they are so unaccurate its not even funny. I can tell you your car is running rich as hell and the gauge is still showing lean. Sell it and pick up an AEM WB02 or equivalent, it will actually tell you what your air fuel ratio is and you can properly tune to optimum AFR.


Joe

 

[crazy_skier]

very true, the narrowband O2 gauge is more worthless than a disco light for a gauge. I personally have a zeitronix wbO2 which is highly reccomended for tuning. Otherwise if you can afford it, spend an hour getting your car dyno tuned with a wb... it will be way faster than before.
if you have not changed anything I would adjust the low fuel trim settings about 15% if you dont have a logger... that will put it close to factory settings for when you are not boosting. Also, leave the high fuel trims close to 0 since that is when you are in boost and need the fuel.
hope that helps a bit

also, take out the wg shims.... they are not needed, especially since your turbo is brand new

 

[kiddsm95]

Yeah, I've gathered that the A/F gauges are worthless. Which will yield a better tune, WB or datalogger?

As for the LTFS, one of the guides from RRE states that the adjustment is basically a ratio of old inj to new inj. I've read that the Evo IX MR injectors are pretty close to 550cc's, which would then equate to -18% adjustment. So do I adjust the low settings to -18% from 1k - 4k rpm?

Any advice will be appreciated.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

You should get both a wideband and a datalogger.... but for tuning purposes, if you have to go with one or the other, get the wideband.

 

[talon187]

If i were you i would get a wideband. im in the same spot you are for the most part. ive got a 255 fuel pump steel bradied lines from the pump to the fuel rail and adjustable fpr with all steel braided lines i sell 10lbs of boost at about 3kish and i have cracks in my manifold. ive got a ported 2g to go on with a tial 38mm wastegate because i creep like crazy. i put 550 injectors in and im running safc2 and maft and i cant get that great of a tune because i dont have wideband id invest in one and see how your car is running stock injectors with everything else upgraded is about 14psi

 

[kiddsm95]

Any input on the LTFS settings? I figured -18% from 1k to 4k, but others say 15%. Should the adjustment be made across the rpm range for the LTFS?

 

[crazy_skier]

I was only saying 15% so that you would be on the conservative side.... since you do not have a logger. 18% is the amount to reduce to factory size, so I would go around that and just with regular driving do some spark plug checking until you have a logger or wb. Loggers are cheaper to, so I would get the wb while you have the money and then you can get the logger later.... or someone in your town may let you borrow one for a day.

 

[2gGSX]

Not to try to scare you, but have you checked the other parts of the turbo? Shaftplay, cracked turbine housing or wastegate port, the wastegate itself, etc. Another thing you could check is compression and/or base timing (especially if your compression test results come back funky). Skipped timing could easily be the culprit.

 

[talon187]

yeah check your wastegate out i took my turbo off tonight and checked mine the actuator wasnt leting the flapper close all the way. doesnt matter to me now because im going with an external gate but somthing for you to look into good luck