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EVO3 16g dyno results

pboglio

Proven Member
1,797
81
May 8, 2004
Palos Heights, Illinois
Not sure. I think the external gate could eliminate the boost spikes which would keep the car on the edge of knock. Once you knock just a little, its like a bolder rolling down hill and you can't stop it while in boost at that point. By getting tight control of the wastegate, you can inch up on the boost and ride that knife edge. Then you can start inching up on the ignition timing and leaning the a/f ratios.

If you spike to say 25-28 psi, then drop back down to 20 psi, it's already too late and your knocking like crazy at that point. This is the main advantage of the external gate, perfect control.

Contrary to what people say, more boost isn't better. In some spots I am seeing more power, but I believe also the exhaust side of the turbo is being strangled by having to flow everything thru the turbine wheel.
 

91stocker

Proven Member
3,623
78
Jan 15, 2010
Vassar, Michigan
thanks, great info
Im already getting bad spikes in the low 20's. Looking to put a stop to that before it becomes a major prob.

Would the modded actuator get the job done as well as an external? I seen some threads on modded actuators. I like the stock appearance.

And do you think that 16g has any more left in it?
 

2gGSX

Proven Member
1,956
28
Feb 15, 2004
St. Louis, Missouri
Contrary to what people say, more boost isn't better. In some spots I am seeing more power, but I believe also the exhaust side of the turbo is being strangled by having to flow everything thru the turbine wheel.

I completely agree, and I think this point is lost on a lot of people. In a small housing, you are going to start dealing with very unfavorable backpressure ratios when you keep cranking the boost up. There's a certain point where it will definitely offset the extra airflow gained and start costing you power.
 

pboglio

Proven Member
1,797
81
May 8, 2004
Palos Heights, Illinois
As far as holding boost, the modded actuator will hold it like an external. Boost control would require minimal wastegate actuator arm preload, and maybe even some light port work on the wastegate orifice. I think 20 psi spike holding out to 20 psi is very doable, but you'd have to live with 20 psi minimum.

With my "current" hard parts, the 16g is done. There is more in the turbo but it requires a custom compressor intake pipe, bigger j-pipe and compressor outlet porting, and switching to speed density and ditching the MAF. I calculate an increase in compressor airflow of about 14-15%. Then for kicks maybe slap in some VP Import 120 octane for another 5% based on their literature. Then I could see laying down some big numbers.

So, I'm maxxed out, and I'm not maxxed out.
 

pboglio

Proven Member
1,797
81
May 8, 2004
Palos Heights, Illinois
I thought people might get some useful info out of this. I tried a few things to squeeze more power out of my 16g. With the FP 4" intake pipe, I was flatlining at about 390 w.h.p. (ECMLink) on multiple pulls in the 65-70*F range. This is about 384 w.h.p. on a dynojet for comparison. I slapped on my old Dejon 2.75" intake pipe and bought a very short 3"-2.25" reducer, not completely optimal (because of the coupler NOT the intake pipe) but it was a major improvement. Damned if that intake pipe doesn't look good, chopped about 1.5" off the BOV return pipe and it fit 95% good. Anyhow, car started pulling 400-402 w.h.p. at the same mid 60*F temps. So definitely, the 4"-2.25" reducer hurts topend flow.

Next, I decided to install my Megan full 3" downpipe, open dumped. I currently run a mandrel bent 2.5" downpipe, 2.5" testpipe, into a Thermal 3" catback with a small 2.375" reducer at the cat flange, and a 2nd 3" muffler behind that. On paper, not the best flow exhaust system for these power levels. Holy crap that 3" open downpipe was loud. Surprisingly, didn't really notice any bottom end power loss tooling around, the noise plays tricks on your brain though in terms of power. Midrange torque peaked at 388 wheel torque vs. say 378 on the 2.5" downpipe, but other parts of the power band the 2.5" made more power. Peak power flatlined at 400 w.h.p. (ecmlink), almost identical to the 2.5" downpipe. I did immediately notice the car had less knock, so the lack of back pressure could have allowed me to run another 1-2* ignition timing on the same fuel. I guess this is what they would call tuning.

Finally, and from the CFD analysis I knew this part was going to make more power, I took my Injen style 3" compressor intake pipe, cut it in half, cleaned up the casting and shortened it to make it fit better using a 3" coupler for now until I could head to the welder. What makes this intake superior is the 3" to 2.25" merge. It isn't perfectly ideal as the merge isn't centered on the compressor inlet, but it is damned good for what it is. The BOV pipe needs to be lengthened a bit though to fit better. Anyhow, the car immediately laid down 406 w.h.p. at about 68*F, back on the 2.5" downpipe plumbed back into my 3" catback. Topend airflow in 3rd gear is up to 42.5 lb/min which is about +1.5 lb/min more than with the FP 4" intake pipe. The superior funneling to the compressor inlet allowed me to pick up some topend airflow and cranking the boost higher allowed me to take advantage of it. This same "high" boost setting did nothing for me on the FP 4" intake pipe and in fact I made a touch less going that high, so the improved intake flow goes hand in hand with cranking up the boost.

Basically, I was predicting a +20 h.p. increase going from the FP 4" intake to a completely optimized intake pipe, the Injen got me about +16 h.p., which still has room for improvement. I expected the 3" downpipe to pickup the topend and surprisingly it really only helped the midrange torque a bit. As far as boost goes, I'm hitting about 30 psi dropping to 21 psi at redline. My electronic boost controller is at about 40% its max setting on a 20 psi rated "Jus" modded holset wastegate actuator. The problem is to get more topend airflow, I'd have to put up with a massive midrange spike. That spike is slowing down my fuel pump as the datalogs clearly showed. I think there is more airflow in the turbo, but with my current 150 lph fuel pump I can't safely go after more boost. An external gate would probably allow me to pickup the topend while keeping the midrange reasonable.

The next testing is going to be an improved j-pipe. I'm expecting to pick up about +1.5-1.8 psi from optimizing it and porting the compressor outlet.
 

91stocker

Proven Member
3,623
78
Jan 15, 2010
Vassar, Michigan
Nice followup, that is some very interesting info.

You saw little to no gains going from 2.5 to 3" with open dump?
Have you tried the improved intake pipe paired with the 3" exhaust set up?
and is that a "homemade" design j-pipe that you will be using?
 

turbotalon1g

Proven Member
1,080
38
Oct 19, 2005
Blaine, Minnesota
I want to say thank you for posting up your findings it is a great help to us all trying to get every ounce of power out of the 16g.

Would you mind posting pics of the intake setup I am very interested.
 

RadDsm

Proven Member
1,679
23
Apr 28, 2008
Eugene, Oregon
I want to say thank you for posting up your findings it is a great help to us all trying to get every ounce of power out of the 16g.


+1

I've really enjoyed keeping track of this thread. I'm now rethinking my FP intake on my 16g.
 

pboglio

Proven Member
1,797
81
May 8, 2004
Palos Heights, Illinois
Yeah, talk to "Jusmx141". He fabricated a 20 psi Holset actuator that fits perfectly on a 16g. Fit and finish were OEM and nearly perfect. Its a mod you would need to "grow into" so to speak, and my results are with some major wastegate actuator spring preload and zero wastegate porting. If I had a Walbro 255 rewired I guarantee some huge power figures, but I simply cannot afford to spike any higher.

91stocker,

Yeah, I designed a modified 2.5" j-pipe on the CAD system that in addition with a 1.75" ported compressor outlet should show some outstanding gains, and I emphasize that the porting of the compressor outlet is critical to the power gains. I've determined this is 90% of the gains of the entire intake/intercooler system and also the cheapest bang for the buck. I'm waiting on some CNC tooling to machine the outlet, since I have a 4-axis CNC in my garage. Its a complicated shape and it would be welded to a 2.5" j-pipe. This is an area overlooked by most 16g owners but I got the idea from dsmtuners and can't take credit for it. I did some CFD modeling and "absolutely definitely" there are huge gains to be had, and eliminates the need to clock the compressor housing.

I didn't try the open dump 3" with this setup. I believe that a 3" downpipe into a 3" catback is superior to an open dump, but I don't have the welding equipment necessary at the moment to conduct the test.

I'll post pics of the intake when I get the chance, and some CFD analysis of the various intakes I've simulated and also physically tested to show what I'm talking about.

Plans for now are: 1) my j-pipe design, 2) speed density conversion 3) custom compressor intake pipe 4) install my Kelford 272 cams. Goal is the same 460 w.h.p. on high octane gasoline. I need about +54 w.h.p to achieve that. I think its very doable.
 

pboglio

Proven Member
1,797
81
May 8, 2004
Palos Heights, Illinois
Yeah, might be something I sell in the future. It would be a billet piece coming off the compressor outlet, then welded to an aluminum j-pipe. If it can be done without forcing someone to run a thinner passenger side fan, I'd start making them for us 16g owners. Right now I just need to get mine made, then if I feel comfortable it can be done inexpensively, I go from there.

The 4 axis is nice, I've only moved the axis using the electronic jog commands at this point, no cutting yet since I haven't gotten the tooling package yet. I'm waiting on the 5-axis software in a few months for cutting compressor wheels, that is going to be the badass. The mill can burn thru aluminum no problem, even stainless with light passes. Working envelope is 11" long, 8" deep, 6.5" tall. The 11" length can be increased if there is a reposition using locating dowel pins or something like that, but the weight on the table is limited to something like 50 lbs due to the drive motor torque and machine center of gravity (machine only weighs 350 lbs), force equals mass times acceleration and all that. Basically bigger parts need slower motor acceleration rates to keep the strain off the motors and work piece CG (center of gravity) should be near the machines CG. I'll shoot some pics of the mill on the stand for kicks. Still learning about CNC milling, fun stuff.

Haven't gotten the j-pipe made yet though, been busy with my new job, designing medical hand tools and spinal implants and doing FEA analysis for spinal implants. Right now I'm working on redesigning a hand screwdriver/socket ratchet system. A few years at this job, I'd be set to work for Craftsman, SK, Snap-on, or the like. Basically your typical mechanical engineering type work. Cool job, hope it lasts:D
 

flyineagletsi

Proven Member
203
7
Apr 4, 2008
Charlestown, Indiana
So are you planning on running a thicker flange to continue transition from the compressor outlet to the 2 1/4 pipping?

This is the same setup I am running except I have a 2 inch pipe. I picked up my flange from jmf. I believe its a half inch. Porting the outlet as well as the flange allows for a smooth transition into the j pipe. I did all of this prior to the 16g install so I have nothing to compare it to, but it would make sense that it helps flow and minimized pressure drop. I had to squeeze the pipe into an bit of an oval shape to fit between the bolts, and ported everything to match the slight oval. I also had to use allen headed bolts because hex bolts would not fit. It might have helped, but who knows.

If you can design your own flange, I would make it thicker then 1/2 inch and a wider flange then the outlet, so you have room to get a good bead around it.
 

pboglio

Proven Member
1,797
81
May 8, 2004
Palos Heights, Illinois
The idea is to machine the entire elbow out of aluminum billet with the flange and transition as one piece. The whole point is to eliminate the 2" j-pipe and go to 2.5".

The area around the compressor outlet is pretty tight for 2.5" which is why I'm machining the transitioning curve I need for the outlet. I'm avoiding "cheated" bends by doing it this way while still being able to fit 2.5" tubing nearly right off the compressor outlet. If I still worked at my old job I'd just rapid prototype the whole piece out of plastic and actually bolt it up and test fit it.
 

flyineagletsi

Proven Member
203
7
Apr 4, 2008
Charlestown, Indiana
Can't you send your cad rendering into those prototyping companies. I can't remember who or where I saw that but they would produce either hard wax copy or maybe plastic. Either way they can ship it to ya.

OK, so with a little google, this is what I came up with.
Rapid Prototyping – AlphaPrototypes.com

Pricey but it may be cheaper then cutting a large slab of billet aluminum without knowing the outcome. If you can't tell, I want to hear some updates!:sneaky:
 

donniekak

DSM Wiseman
5,621
967
Mar 23, 2008
Surprise, Arizona
I just finished a build with the mods in my profile. I have an hx35 sitting in my garage and planned to use it with the build. There was a problem getting a housing for the holset, so i just threw an evo3 16g on for break in. Running e-85 and this setup, i'm inclined to leave the 16g on.
 

donniekak

DSM Wiseman
5,621
967
Mar 23, 2008
Surprise, Arizona
^^^pboglio makes big power but he's also trashed 3 built transmissions due to the "insta-hit" of the 16g. Besides we all know the 35 will flow more, a lot more if you have the 7 blade.

I build dsm transmisions, so i have about 3-5 transmisions on hand at all times. Oh, and a dsm trans is never "built", the best you can do is a 91-92 gearset, and welded diff. They still rip the teeth off of 3rd gear on the intermediate shaft. The 272 cams take some of the hit out of the 16g, and really lenghthen the powerband.
I ran a hx40 on my galant, i think the holsets are fine, but the evo3 on my car now, runs so much better than any of my other builds, with a 16g of course.
 

pboglio

Proven Member
1,797
81
May 8, 2004
Palos Heights, Illinois
Can't you send your cad rendering into those prototyping companies. I can't remember who or where I saw that but they would produce either hard wax copy or maybe plastic. Either way they can ship it to ya.

OK, so with a little google, this is what I came up with.
Rapid Prototyping – AlphaPrototypes.com

Pricey but it may be cheaper then cutting a large slab of billet aluminum without knowing the outcome. If you can't tell, I want to hear some updates!:sneaky:

Thanks for the link, I might just see what they charge. I completely forgot about these types of services. Been busy with my new job and getting my STi back on the road as my daily driver. Once the GSX is off of daily driving duty, I can get back on track.
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,594
113
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
I build dsm transmisions, so i have about 3-5 transmisions on hand at all times. Oh, and a dsm trans is never "built", the best you can do is a 91-92 gearset, and welded diff. They still rip the teeth off of 3rd gear on the intermediate shaft. The 272 cams take some of the hit out of the 16g, and really lenghthen the powerband.
I ran a hx40 on my galant, i think the holsets are fine, but the evo3 on my car now, runs so much better than any of my other builds, with a 16g of course.

If you like it, dont change. If it ain't broke. . .
 

pboglio

Proven Member
1,797
81
May 8, 2004
Palos Heights, Illinois
Back on track yet? LOL

Soon as I'm done swapping turbo's on my STi, I'll be back on track. No DSMer has a right to complain about installing a turbo after witnessing an STi turbo install:D The STi is a nightmare. The thought of changing spark plugs or cams on this thing gives me chills. Freaking 7 bolts holding the turbine housing heatshield in place. Oil drain return removal nearly took forever due to its hyper cramped position, finally got tired and hate to say this, but I used an engine hoist to pull the turbo off the oil return rubber line draining to the sump, worked like a charm. For anyone thats interested, the reason it failed was a clogged oil line filter feeding the turbo. Why Subaru decided it'd be a good idea to install an oil filter in a banjo bolt is beyond me, but it took out the turbo good. I'd say I now have about 1" of shaft play on the old turbo.

Anyhow, I'm waiting on an 8cm turbine housing for the 68HTA since its a better match for the 2.5 Liter motors bigger displacement than the 7cm housing.
 

Steve93Talon

Proven Member
1,621
163
Jan 20, 2005
Philly Burbs, Pennsylvania
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