Engine Rebuild or Swap?

[BoyRacerBlu]

Ok, so i'm going to start by saying, this isn't my first rodeo with cars, turbos, fab, ect ect, so technical skillset isnt an issue for myself. I just got done custom fabbing a single setup for my 97 3000gt vr4 and building my 1973 mustang engine and tranny over winter (lotsa winter projects cooking in this garage haha) so now that winters coming im looking for a solid daily I can live with to handle the road salt instead of those two, but to keep me happy in the meantime, ie spunky, but reliable and gets good gas.


I found a 1999 eclipse OZ Rally edition thats MINT for a 1000 bucks, interior never looks sat in, the hood has a crinkle, the clear coat on the roof is juuuust starting to show its age, and most importantly, the 420a has rodnock and needs to come out for a swap or a rebuild.

I know the seller personally and helped him to start rebuilding and refreshing the car as that was his intended daily driver so he could park his Wrx. That all went good until they basically said "the hell with it" and took out a lease on a 2013 ford focus when they just couldnt find the time.

So, my dilemma is this: im buying the car/chassis as its the perfect commuter/daily for myself in class, however, im interested in 3 things with this car

1) good gas

2) deadnuts reliable

3) its needs enough power to get out of its own way on the highway for commuting purposes. I don't need another fast car, but I can't stand driving a pooch- thus keeping it na, sticking with boltons, ect ect


So if im going through the motions and work, naturally im considering an NA 2.4 bottom end swap to address the rodnock issue

With the above criteria in mind, and seeing as I need to go through the work anyway, is a 2.4 swap an ACCEPTABLE option for a reliable commuter with a lil extra spunk?

Is the swap relatively reliable if done correctly? - ie no inherent overheating or oiling issues due to port alignment, coolant passages, ect ect

Does it get good gas in the "larger-than-a-neon" eclipse chassis?

Ive read and searched, and done my fair share of homework on the swap, non of the fab is an issue, and ive even come across nice collective gems like this in my research:

Collection of 2.4L 420A Engine Swap Information


its not a question of can I, but rather should I? Some input from the experienced members with this swap would be aweasome- would this make a good daily driver setup or am I going to be fighting issues to get it to work?

 

[bullettdsm]

I'm in agreeance. The 2.4 will give you a bit more "zip" and it is certainly a reliable choice. The gas mileage will be slightly lower, but not by much. If you are just doing the 2.4 NA swap with no addtions (eh, maybe a set of cams or so), it'll be as relaible as a stock set-up (disclaimer here of not driving like you stole it or adding up the mods as you go. And of course, doing the appropriate "maintenace items" items before you put it in).


MB

 

[BoyRacerBlu]

Appreciate the feedback


Ideally, for a daily commuter, Im basically planning on the breather mods for extra oomph, and mpgs. IE header, intake, tune. The car has a brand new uninstalled and unused thermal coated DC sports header that ill probably sell for an ebay one as I don't have the heart to chop it for the swap, it has an AEM intake, and I have a Lead on an AF/X ECU for cheap. Essentially I'm hoping to shoot for upper 20's/low 30's in town if i drive it like grandma. maybe mid 30's highway


the donor block would be getting new bearings/rings, gaskets and timing components in the very least just to refresh it from whatever Van/sedan it spent its life in.

a pt cruiser clutch


outside of that, the only other "performance" thing is the head will probably get milled .040 over and the intake/exhaust ports gasket matched- I don't have any crazy aspirations for the car, but I figured while im at it....why not



I've been reading on neons.org that they can swap in the mopar PCM's as a nice budget alternative to the afx ecu, has this been explored in the 2gnt? i mean the 97-99 DOHC harness should match from the neon to the eclipse, so Im ASSUMING it works....

 

[glowryder]

I personally dont think swapping in the 2.4 stock ish will give you the gas milage. It will give you nore tq.. but at the cost of milage. Eclipse 420awith already gets nice milaige.. imo rebuild stock 420a.. it will meet and 2. 3 will be iffy. Of its a 5spd.. then just downshift.

 

[99 gs iowa]

not to many decently fast n/a 420a's, if your wantin power out of a 420a go turbo,

 

[glowryder]

if he goes turbo, then that blows a way a cheap reliable DD (because reliable inst cheap) He can have all 3, if #3 is negotiable. i think a stock 420a does just fine for "getting on the highway" etc. its ot fast by any means.. but it seems like #1 and #2 on his list were more important, so kinda throws turb out the window.

 

[glowryder]

why not build stock and throw a 35 shot on.. needs some speed? press the little red button boom cheap reliable with power boost on demand.

 

[BoyRacerBlu]

forgot to mention it's a 5 spd, so that'll help, and no need to be fast- as the previous gentlemen said, it'll just add some zippier parts to something that needed to be fixed anywho.



-ehhhh, I'm not a fan of juice. To me its relatively pricey to pay for a good wetshot kit for power you get only SOME of the time- IF the bottle is full, not to mention a 35 shot isn't worth it to me at least. The engine build still serves to get the engine running directly and its money I need to spend anyway. I know im bias in my views on N02, but to me its always held 2 stigmas 1) its rice in something that isnt using at least a mild shot (75+) and 2) its meant for the upper end drag cars trying to spool a turbo faster or get more oomph out of their fully worked engine- neither of which the car is nor I want it to be.


Turbo is out of the question, I have no interest in investing that much money or effort to have it reliably support boost for a daily driver, and as noted before I've got 2 other cars that would blow the doors off a converted NA-T eclipse in the end anyway, so im satisfied in the CRAZY FAST department


For the mpg arguement, what are you seeing exactly? I had a friend who pulled off 40mpg's hwy in his 2.4 swapped neon on our way to MAperformance in the cities for some parts to my talon at the time, so I was hoping it'd be SOMEWHAT comparable as theres only a 200-250 lb weight different between the 2 cars with the same power/drivetrain, but if theres going to be a significant loss in mpg's, then I suppose it may not be worth it after all...

Ideally, with full breather boltons, upping the efficiency of the motor and pulling some fuel safely in the tune, and some nice mellow driving I'm shooting for 28-30 city, 35 highway, and roughly 170-200 fwhp, something I don't think the 2.0 has in it without spending some real money on internals, cams, headwork, megasquirt. I can also hypermile like a champ, and the car is a 5 spd so im not crazy worried I wont at least get some decent city gas mileage out of it (nailed 28 city in my talon tsi fwd when had it and when it was running properly) Just looking for some reliable zip and some decent gas

 

[glowryder]

IMO i think the 2.4 swap for what your doing is over kill. I dont see why you wouldnt hit your goal MPG in the 2.0. You may want to swap out your 3.94 for a 3.55, that will help high ways speeds as well.. id say rebuild 420a + the 3.55 (that your 2.4 neon swapped frend was most likely using) and you have a good dd

as for 2.4 mpg, i cant speak on that.. im way beyond stock to even know , i know its not good . but driving habits and tune are all factors on my end.

 

[AK Maniak]

I had a mint condition 98 RS that ran perfectly and although I only had the stock 2.0 I was getting about 28-30mpg on the highway. Like I said I have no personal experience with a 2.4 but your mileage expectations seem a little wishful. I had a 5 speed as well.

As far as reliability goes my 98 was awesome. It was my first car ever, I got it when I was 16 and I beat the piss out of it everyday for about 60k miles. I would personally just stick with a 2.0 and leave it stock. It was by no means fast but it had a bit of pep when needed. More than enough to pass people at highway speeds or get out of the way if needed .

 

[99 gs iowa]

Turbo is out of the question, I have no interest in investing that much money or effort to have it reliably support boost for a daily driver, and as noted before I've got 2 other cars that would blow the doors off a converted NA-T eclipse in the end anyway, so im satisfied in the CRAZY FAST department

is that a challenge?

 

[bullettdsm]

2.4 swap at 40mpg? Meh, pretty unlikely. Don"t get me wrong I got 40mpg (425 highway and 75 city miles) on my 2.0 NA when she was doing 13.9's BUT that was kinda extensive in the build and I was also using an safc with an AFX ECU.

If you go 3.55 you won't be happy. There will be lots of dog in it when you want to zip. Also, the 170-200 fwhp is not a realistic number unless you change the ECU to MSnS or at least an AFX ECU and then you will be pushing to try to get to 170 (depending on mods).

The bonus about using the 2.4 is it will give you a little more down low zip.

Keep in mind that the 2.0 will usually net you around 27-32 overall mpg (again a generality depending on a lot), so you gotta figure the once you up the displacement and install mods, the mileage would go down from there.

MB

 

[GSTurbo1]

for the love of god please don't turbo, just rebuild the 420a and be done with it. Put a breather and header and you will be satisfied for what you are looking to have

is that a challenge?

HA HA! I have another one to add to that challenge

 

[BoyRacerBlu]

is that a challenge?

Id put money down - the vr4 is a transmission repair from 800+ awhp as it sits, and the mustang is an NA as bawls 400rwhp in a VERY light chassis with full suspension and brakes. Im not saying that NA-T dsm CANT be lucratively fast, or any dsm for that matter - quite the opposite, I strongly believe you can't build ANY other car faster for the money, chevrolete 350 and Honda LS motors are close, but no cigar vs a dsm for raw bang for the buck out of the box . Its more to the point that I'm WAYYYYYYyyyyy in too deep with the other two to warrant sticking any real money or time into a third car as a rolling Pr0jEkT..... maybe someday if im bored ill nut up and snag some srt internals, a t3 manifold, megasquirt and fab some pipe onto a good sized snail, but today's not that day, or tomorrow either


ANYWHOOooooo back on topic, yeah, I hear you guys, I did some pricing of parts and locally and on ebay general rebuilds ran about 200 bucks or so for a fresh crank/bearing setup, and on the opposite side of the spectrum I found a 2.4 donor motor for about 200 pulled from a running stratus who's tranny died and was going to be junked, so I hate to burst everyone's bubble but I went the 2.4 route....


HOWEVER!!!! I decided I'm going to do something fun and slightly offbeat with this engine swap after reading the replies, im going to do the traditional swap, boltons ect ect, get the generic oomph out of it with what I can with a lil custom fab and junkyard repurposement knowhow to hit some decent whp, BUT im also going to see if I can get the mileage im hoping for, or at least get close despite everyone's thoughts. It will be sort of a test and tune thing to see if its truly possible vs speculation and hearsay- kinda like those ebay guinea pig threads, but hopefully with more luck!

I'm slightly hopeful with my goals, sure, but after hitting a consistent 27-28mpg's city on a GST with keydiver ecu,evo3 turbo, evo3 510's, evo3 intake manifold and ported exhaust manifold, heavier ACT 2600 clutch 3" AMS downpipe and 2.5" pacesetter cat back, i think this warrants testing- ie we'll see if a combo of increasing motor efficiency and good driving will net the results I want. So without further adieu

SUPER OFFICIAL NA ECLIPSE BUDGET SLOWBOYRACER BUILD OF TEH AWERSOMENESS

Goals: at least 160 fwhp and 26-28 mpg city driving (driving nice and conservative) and 32-35 highway (driving nice)

Parts acquired/to be acquired

Gates timing kit with pullies, replacement OE spec water pump, tensioner and belt. -check

injectors- check

full engine gasket sets between the 2.4 and 2.0 eclipse head- check


full ring and standard bearing set- check

Intake- Car already has an AEM intake- not the greatest piece of work from my initial observations in getting familiar with NA dsm hardware, and may see some fab to make it a true CAI setup as this its just a sad attempt and probably overpriced. - Check

Lightweight UDP- Check

Stratus R/T 2.7 Modular clutch- have held 250 fwhp over at neon's.org and still offers stock like engagement without any of the self adjusting cable vs self adjusting clutch debate - Check

Ebay header to be chopped and screwed, and reinforced as I don't have the heart to chop the brand new unused DC sports header- check

jeep TB- need

port/polish/gasket match intake mani- need to do

port/polish/gasket matched cylinder head intake/exhaust ports - need to to

head milled .040- need to do

safc- need to buy


howell ECU OOOORRRRrrrrrrr at the least look into the pinout differences for a mopar peformance pcm as I REAAAAAAALLLLYYYY doubt its a big stretch to get it working properly from a 420a 2.0 neon into a 420a 2.0 eclipse- need to do/find/buy

2g GSX brakes/rotors ( brakes and rotors were shot and seized on car and has to be removed with cutting wheels) - Check

new balljoints, boots, grease, OEM wheel bearings- comes with the car from prev owner- Check

AWWWWWwwwww yeeeeaaahhhh!!! This just turned from a Poll thread into a build challenge thread baby!

 

[glowryder]

GL, seems you changed your goals/Priorities around. . why ask if your going to do the oppisite anyway .. oh well. GL. why not find an S/C'd pt cruiser and try to work that on there. With your level of fab, you shouldnt have an issue, it would be cheap and give you some pep.
Dont forget to change the wiring order for the 2.4., as our ecu's arnt exactly 1:1 to run the 2.4..

 

[BoyRacerBlu]

Well, initially i was going closer to the 2.0 route and if just being a daily commuter that looks good, but a local tunning shop owner and friend who did the 2.4 swap to a neon he owned ( see prev 38-40mpg neon post) talked me into commiting for the swap, its not that i really had my mind set, its that i more or less got talked into it buuuuuttttt

Yeahhh, i changed my goals it seems, im a power nut at heart...what can i say...

As for the pt thing, thats REAAAALLY interesting, but, this is the car im going to avoid any major fab, i can make brackets, an oil pan and lower the exhaust in a saturday, but shoe horning that in there in a clean way and converting the wiring to run that and install MS is more of a pita than what i care to sink my teeth into

Maybe in the future though!

 

[glowryder]

id add a IJ scraper and windage tray with trap doors. Since Youll have a custom pan, he would need to do a one off, and depending on how crazy you want to get a new pickup tube may be in order.. Unless you wanna weld some trap doors in your pan and call it a day that will work for what your doing.

 

[BoyRacerBlu]

PM me a link to this please, I'm unfamiliar to the IJ windage tray

 

[starfish]

I havn't heard of any tryin the frankenstein turbo short block(2.4 turbo 420A short block)fron DSM graveyard.I would like to know if anyone has tried it yet?Definately thinking about ordering one for my self.As far as reliability goes for a boosted 420A,I'm runnin 8psi for 2 years now,I drive the car every day 25 MPG.I never go over 8psi.You cant really compare it to a 4g63 with 15 psi thats running good.A low boosted 420A wont be super fast but can be pretty quick when set up the right way.My Lil brother just bought a brand spanking new Hemi challenger RT with paddle shiftersand couldnt wait to race me.Long story short,He couldn't beat me,but he was able to keep up.So now he's lookin to trade it in for the 392 Hemi SRT.Anyhow my boosted 420A is pretty reliabe,I always check everything and I'm surprised it lasted this long with all the horror stories I here about boosting a 420A.Doesnt burn a drop of oil and the oil stays so clean you can hardly even see it on the dipstick.

 

[BoyRacerBlu]

Lol, nice, well you got a good setup it sounds like!, if i was to boost this, id be getting srt internals, a t3 mani and megasquirt, ( saving a spare 38mm wg for this in case i get the itch down the road)

Fyi thougj, why drop that kinda coin on the dsm graveyard 2.4 frankenstein?? You can snag used srt rods for 150, a 2.4 for 2-300, machine to fit, and put your head on, a comparable motor for a lot less, and can be done by your local shop vs paying freight to have a shortblock shipped

For the turbo thi g though, a solid turbo setup with supporting fuel, tunning, clutch and fab is more than i care to get into this car, not that its not capable, but i personally have no desire to really do that BS with my dd. The engine parts are for a replacement to a dead motor, the turbo parts are an add on to a live one. Pretty much after this, its getting the "nice to drive" mods. New front suspension ( springs, boots, balljoints are all grody, corroded and fused on, or shot) heated seat grids installed in the leather, and premium speaker components installed along with a lightweight sound box in the back so i can bump a lil while i commute to college...lot of quick money to stick in a daily, but at least i know it will run well for years to come without a hiccup * crosses fingers * and be nice/fun to drive

Update on the build

Contemplating on cams now it seems, a fellow on neons.org has a set of crower stage 3 cams for the 420a eclipse head hes trying to sell to me for cheap, and i hear 2.4's love cam....

A bit outside of the original plan, but cheap enough that while im doing the head, why not.

 

[bullettdsm]

Contemplating on cams now it seems, a fellow on neons.org has a set of crower stage 3 cams for the 420a eclipse head hes trying to sell to me for cheap, and i hear 2.4's love cam....

Those are Jim's. He's a good guy and you can trust what he says about those cams. You can let him know you talked to me.

I havn't heard of any tryin the frankenstein turbo short block(2.4 turbo 420A short block)fron DSM graveyard.I would like to know if anyone has tried it yet?.

Be very careful

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420a-bolt-tech/351211-420a-cams-what-do-you-recommend-3.html

and

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/private-hangout/390993-dsmgraveyard.html

and OP, add Crower 2's to my pm

MB

 

[BoyRacerBlu]

After a lengthy discussion with jim on the phone today, we both came to the conclusion that THESE particular cams dont fit in too well with my goals/intentions with the car, and ultimately sidelined the idea for now, back to just port match and polishing the intake and exhaust ports on the heads it seems

 

[matrxhasyou]

Was just closing up the for-sale on this car in the regional threads and poked around to see if I could find your build thread here.

I knew from the moment you laid eyes on that motor you had build plans all laid out. Maybe I should have listened from the get-go and we could have had a 2.4 halfway done by now! But alas, my fabrication skills are pretty much non-existent (unless it comes to computers. anyone need custom computer hardware built? )

We'll get it rolling soon. Just placed the order for the new control arms.

 

[BoyRacerBlu]

O yeah, i got fab skills in spades, but what will be nice is that we BOTH get to autoX this car, and it should be fun in that respect, i know you were intending to do it, but ran out of time, whereas i got the time and just happened to come across some money to put it together in a nice clean/ reliable way Too bad the cv's were seized into the wheel hub assembly, i had to buy 2 new ones at 70 a piece and im cannibalizing dave's gsx for the vertical arms, gsx brakes and rotors as a replacement/ budget bbk upgrade for a good price

 

[BoyRacerBlu]

SOOOooooo, update on the car- the FULL front suspension needed to be replaced

ie- CV shafts, upper, and lower control arms with new ball joints and bushings, new wheel bearings, new brakes- rocking GSX brakes for now, outer tie rods, hopefully the inner tie rods arent shot to hell

all the engine parts are undergoing assembly and hopefully the motor will be dropped into the car in the next couple of days.

all that remains is some bracket fab, a lil bit of wiring work, and a funky idea im going to try to see if I can circumvent cutting my oilpan.