Engine cooling issue with FMIC?

[96atawd]

What's up Tuners? I am a new guy with questions about FMIC's and cooling (radiator/coolant) issues. I have read a lot about people having engine cooling issues with fmic's, and some people preferring smic's instead, to avoid possible cooling issues, but, big smic's are hard to find nowadays, and I am worried a big smic will not offer enough charge cooling for my goal of a Evo316g. Right now I am completely stock except for Injen intake and Greddy IC pipes/bov. My first goal is to be at ~ 300 WHEEL hp with an e316g and stock 4g63 and 93 pump gas. Would a big smic (if I can find one) with good ducting be sufficient for this goal? If not...

Which fmic core design is best allowing good airflow to the radiator? Bar and plate, or tube and fin? Is the opposite better at cooling the charge air? Which brand fmic would you suggest, keeping in mind I want the best airflow to the radiator? I've read that the Greddy Fmic's allow the best airflow to the radiator, while still cooling the charge air more efficiently than any smic. Is that true? I just dont want to spend a good amount of money on a fmic and then have engine cooling issues, as I am more concerned about the engine running at the optimal temp than I am the charge being as cold as possible. I also don't want a small fmic that doesn't fill the opening of the front bumper (I will do a 2gb front conversion when I upgrade to the 16g/fmic) . So, which fmic will A) fill the 2gb front bumper opening, B) cool the charge air better than a big smic, and C) allow good airflow to the radiator? Hypothetical, if fmic "A" allows great airflow to the radiator while still cooling the charge air better than a big smic, but not as well as fmic "B", and fmic "B" cools the charge air better than both a big smic and fmic "A", but doesn't allow good airflow to the radiator, I would prefer fmic "A". Make sense? Sorry, I am picky. I just want good airflow to the radiator while still cooling the charge better than a big smic, and hopefully using most of my Greddy IC piping, if possible.

Thank You!
New DSM'er.

 

[1davho]

A big sidemount would be sufficient for the 16g, but if you ever plan on going bigger, I would just skip that step and get a fmic. The punishment racing one is pretty inexpensive and does a great job. As for the cooling issues, as long as you are going to open your bumper up, you should be fine. I have a greddy intercooler that I was running my fp big t28 with that I will sell for cheap. Its a little dirty and not as pretty as new one, but it held boost great and I never had an issue with it. Pm me if you are interested.

Its the one that is in my profile pic.

 

[JUANPSI]

Any decent core will not affect cooling to much.

 

[96atawd]

Positive a big smic (which one is best? Dejon, Hahn, Bullsey etc... I don't want to hack up a supra or other smic, just the best bolt on smic) will be sufficient for every bit of hp an e316g can produce on 93 pump gas? This is my dd, so I dont want heat soak problems, which is why I am considering a fmic, even though I'm a bit worried about a fmic blocking flow to the radiator. I do not plan to cut the front bumper to where you can tell its been hacked up, the only cutting to the front bumper I will do is the non visible parts that have to be cut to install a fmic. I want it to look stock.

Which design is best for maximum airflow to the radiator? Bar and plate or tube and fin? I want the most airflow to the radiator as I can possibly get, while still cooling the charge air better than a big smic.

 

[Ghost_92TSi]

There are write ups on ducting to help air flow into the radiator. I have an issue on my 1g that I'm going to try this on.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/431539-ducting-fmic.html

 

[boost97gst]

This exact same question has popped up so so many times. Get a fmic. If you plan to go all out 600whp one day, bite the bullet and get an ETS. If not vrsf/PR kits are both very good and half the price. VRSF is super cheap right now. Vendor announcement. Think theyre shipped at 309! Thats fn cheap dude.

Research ducting and use common sense. You want to make sure the air doesnt go through the fmic and then out. Or thru the condenser then out. Seal these 2 areas and you'll be happy. One step further is putting a scoop underneath the fron clip to the bottom rad mount. This will force air up and into the fmic/condenser/rad

 

[96atawd]

Which design (bar and plate, or tube and fin) will allow the best airflow to the radiator?

The more and more I keep reading about overheating issues with a fmic, and fan issues with the J pipe needed for a 16g on a 2g, the more I am liking the idea a big smic and big t28 (its so hard to find both of these!), but I know I will want the hp of the 16g and fmic > t28 and smic. grrrrrr.

 

[95_gsx_2g]

Which design (bar and plate, or tube and fin) will allow the best airflow to the radiator?

The more and more I keep reading about overheating issues with a fmic, and fan issues with the J pipe needed for a 16g on a 2g, the more I am liking the idea a big smic and big t28 (its so hard to find both of these!), but I know I will want the hp of the 16g and fmic > t28 and smic. grrrrrr.

I run the punishment racing kit on my billet 71 hta anti surge forced performance turbo and on my old turbo and love it! As far as cooling open up the bumper to what ever size core you get. And the bar and plate and tube and fin both are tightly spaced fins along with cheap or expensive ones. If you want to be extra cool I would suggest a mishimoto rad 2 core or something along those lines. Also with the j-pipe slim fans are fairly cheap and will clear with a f.m.i.c. style j pipe or side mount style but a side mount style can be used with a front mount too if you got the right piping and couplers.

 

[4Lurker4]

I have to admit, I'm an avid user of big SMICs on both my DSM. I had a bullseye and Dejon on my 2g. The best of the two is the Dejon for fin design, easy fitment (bolt on and go, Bullseye needs a angled coupler the Dejon is a straight coupler), cooling efficiency and general durability. They are made like tanks! Although the Bullseye looks just as stout.

The 1g has a Supra SMIC that I just finished installing today (there is a bit of hacking involved and it's definitely not bolt on and go).

For a 16g or a T28, I'd recommend the SMIC in a split second. You'll never have issues with cooling, you'll spool fast and you won't get a wack of people asking you what you have in your engine bay because they won't see a FMIC.

Now the only big issue, is finding a used Big SMIC and not pay a fortune for it (most run in the 200-300 region for just the SMIC although you can sometimes get lucky and get them for 100, if you find them).

Also, I like the fact you mentioned good ducting with the SMIC as this is a must to get it's full potential. Nothing is stopping you to install a water injection kit for high boost when you hit the throttle with generosity. You won't do it all the time, and the water will take care of cooling when you really need it.

The GReddy FMIC is good (also one of the lightest I've ever held; had one before) but it's easily punctured and the fins fold in easily as well. Its bending mostly due to the material used to make it light. It's also long route, so you'll loose a bit of spool. Piping has the same issue, make sure it doesn't rub against metal, it will deteriorate.

FMICs in general will cool the charge better simply because they have more surface area, that's just a fact. Although the SMIC is better positioned (if proper ducting is used) to expell the hot air in a hurry in the wheel well without any back pressure as the tire turning will act as a vacuum area. Another advantage is the fact that you will less likely bend fins than the FMIC damaged by foreign road damage since it's in front, with the large surface area. Bent fins will result in less efficient ICs.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

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Cooling holes:thumbup:

 

[96atawd]

I run the punishment racing kit on my billet 71 hta anti surge forced performance turbo and on my old turbo and love it! As far as cooling open up the bumper to what ever size core you get. And the bar and plate and tube and fin both are tightly spaced fins along with cheap or expensive ones. If you want to be extra cool I would suggest a mishimoto rad 2 core or something along those lines. Also with the j-pipe slim fans are fairly cheap and will clear with a f.m.i.c. style j pipe or side mount style but a side mount style can be used with a front mount too if you got the right piping and couplers.

The only cutting want to do is what's needed to fit the fmic. I want the bumper to look 100% stock looking, instead of being cut larger. And I've read quite a few people say that the slimfans they had to install because of their j pipe don't push, or pull, as much air as the stock fans, which kind of worries me a bit.

I have to admit, I'm an avid user of big SMICs on both my DSM. I had a bullseye and Dejon on my 2g. The best of the two is the Dejon for fin design, easy fitment (bolt on and go, Bullseye needs a angled coupler the Dejon is a straight coupler), cooling efficiency and general durability. They are made like tanks! Although the Bullseye looks just as stout.

The 1g has a Supra SMIC that I just finished installing today (there is a bit of hacking involved and it's definitely not bolt on and go).

For a 16g or a T28, I'd recommend the SMIC in a split second. You'll never have issues with cooling, you'll spool fast and you won't get a wack of people asking you what you have in your engine bay because they won't see a FMIC.

Now the only big issue, is finding a used Big SMIC and not pay a fortune for it (most run in the 200-300 region for just the SMIC although you can sometimes get lucky and get them for 100, if you find them).

Also, I like the fact you mentioned good ducting with the SMIC as this is a must to get it's full potential. Nothing is stopping you to install a water injection kit for high boost when you hit the throttle with generosity. You won't do it all the time, and the water will take care of cooling when you really need it.

The GReddy FMIC is good (also one of the lightest I've ever held; had one before) but it's easily punctured and the fins fold in easily as well. Its bending mostly due to the material used to make it light. It's also long route, so you'll loose a bit of spool. Piping has the same issue, make sure it doesn't rub against metal, it will deteriorate.

FMICs in general will cool the charge better simply because they have more surface area, that's just a fact. Although the SMIC is better positioned (if proper ducting is used) to expell the hot air in a hurry in the wheel well without any back pressure as the tire turning will act as a vacuum area. Another advantage is the fact that you will less likely bend fins than the FMIC damaged by foreign road damage since it's in front, with the large surface area. Bent fins will result in less efficient ICs.

You firmly believe a big (Dejon) smic and proper ducting will be enough intercooler for any amount of power a t28 or 16g can provide? Without heatsoak? Also, I know the 2gb front bumper offers the best airflow for a fmic, and would 100% do the 2gb swap if I decide to go with a fmic, but which front (2ga or 2gb Eclipse) bumper would be best for the smic? Your post is leaning me more towards a big smic.

Cooling holes:thumbup:

I don't want to "molest" the front bumper, I would want the bumper to look stock from the outside, only cutting the backside as needed to install the fmic.

 

[4Lurker4]

You firmly believe a big (Dejon) smic and proper ducting will be enough intercooler for any amount of power a t28 or 16g can provide? Without heatsoak? Also, I know the 2gb front bumper offers the best airflow for a fmic, and would 100% do the 2gb swap if I decide to go with a fmic, but which front (2ga or 2gb Eclipse) bumper would be best for the smic? Your post is leaning me more towards a big smic.

Well as you know, your HP goal is the peak of your power band, you won't be using it ALL the time. I do indeed think the Big SMIC will support your goal. Although I realized you said "my first goal is..." if you're looking to build a monster later on, a FMIC may be a better option. Like I mentioned earlier, in both cases you can run water injection or meth and gain power and cooling for later (and only when you need it).

Heatsoak depends on how you drive. It'll handle a good amount of runs at the track (moreso if you open up the back end of the IC where the wheel well vents sit) and will never heat soak as a daily. It's also favored by a good number of Auto-X racers. If this is just for track (or mostly) I'd go FMIC. It will definitely support the 16g and T28, they are mild turbo upgrades. Like anything else though, small turbo running at very high boost will run more hot air because it's past its efficiency range. Just stay in the efficient range.

As for the best bumper for the SMIC, I believe it would be the Talon 2gb. Its opening is bigger than the 2gb Eclipse and conforms better in terms of a duct for that particular purpose. I actually have a spare 2gb Talon bumper with which I will be testing this theory.

 

[95_gsx_2g]

The only cutting want to do is what's needed to fit the fmic. I want the bumper to look 100% stock looking, instead of being cut larger. And I've read quite a few people say that the slimfans they had to install because of their j pipe don't push, or pull, as much air as the stock fans, which kind of worries me a bit.








You firmly believe a big (Dejon) smic and proper ducting will be enough intercooler for any amount of power a t28 or 16g can provide? Without heatsoak? Also, I know the 2gb front bumper offers the best airflow for a fmic, and would 100% do the 2gb swap if I decide to go with a fmic, but which front (2ga or 2gb Eclipse) bumper would be best for the smic? Your post is leaning me more towards a big smic.



I don't want to "molest" the front bumper, I would want the bumper to look stock from the outside, only cutting the backside as needed to install the fmic.

Yea I understand but it's optional to cut it. I got a punishment kit and I didn't cut at first but then I did because I want all the flow possible and I love the look with them cut to size nicely (not chopped)but that's just my opinion. Who ever said that about the slim fans probably had poor wiring or extremely cheap aftermarket fans or some kind of issue. I ran 30 psi tons of fuel for years with my slim fans and never overheated once. They have to be wired correctly if you have no ac like me too. They blow way harder then stock fans and with a aluminum rad and slim fans you can't get too much better!

 

[96atawd]

Yea I understand but it's optional to cut it. I got a punishment kit and I didn't cut at first but then I did because I want all the flow possible and I love the look with them cut to size nicely (not chopped)but that's just my opinion. Who ever said that about the slim fans probably had poor wiring or extremely cheap aftermarket fans or some kind of issue. I ran 30 psi tons of fuel for years with my slim fans and never overheated once. They have to be wired correctly if you have no ac like me too. They blow way harder then stock fans and with a aluminum rad and slim fans you can't get too much better!

I just keep reading about things like fan fitment issues due to the j pipe, and overheating due to inferior fans needed due to a j pipe, not being able to retain a/c, which I want to keep, not getting enough airflow to the radiator even with a good radiator/fan setup because of the fmic etc etc...

I think I may just play the waiting game, and stay stock (actually just injen intake and greddy smic pipes/bov) for now and try to find a Dejon big smic, then go from there.

Does the 2gb eclipse front bumper provide better airflow to the smic as well?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

If you are worried about over heating, make some proper ducting.

Mine feels like a wind tunnel with the fans on:

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You can actually feel it pulling from over a foot away.

Make sure you seal the back of your hood against the cowl.

 

[WES_393]

Don't let all the overheating threads scare you into using a dinky SMIC and modified stock turbo (t28). My Punishment FMIC keeps my intake temps around ambient and coolant temps in the 200° range. I'm only using a single AC fan for cooling, an old stock 4g64 radiator, and no ducting of any kind.

Now either I'm a magician, or all these cheap aftermarket fans/radiators along with a weak cooling system are the actual cause of overheating issues. Not large, high flowing FMIC's.

As for fitment issues with the stock fans and 16g J-pipe...

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More info on the Punishment Racing FMIC install can be found here
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/440986-2ga-punishment-racing-fmic-install-guide.html

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Only reason I cut holes was because it was a crappy bumper Which I only cut enough to just bolt on as I have been driving without a bumper. My 2g rad had a hole poked in it and so I had to use a 1g rad I bought long ago.

My 2g a/c fan was all that would fit in front of my intake but it only has 1 bolt in it and doesn't sit flush on the rad. And it does not operate like new either as its a old fan. Due to my manifold/turbo setup I can only fit a fan on 1 side. If I had a 12" spal fan mounted on it I probably would never had an issue. It went to 229 degrees on a hot day after I did a few pulls. Which is hot but not damaging hot.

With a 14b/16g with jpipe setup you should have no problem fitting two 12" spals in your rad. And even if your front Mount took up the whole you shouldn't have an issue with those fans

 

[96atawd]

I think I may have talked myself into a "big" t28 and a "big" smic and trying to get as much power as I can from that setup, as I feel I should be happy with that for a while. IF I feel the need for more power after bigger t28/bigger smic + injectors/fuel pump/dsmlink, I will start looking into bigger turbo's and fmic's. And I know it will most likely take a while to find the turbo and cooler I want, but that's perfectly fine, as I have ALOT of other stuff (engine maintenance, transmission/driveline, brakes/suspension etc...) I have to start/finish before I start adding more power (I know I dont HAVE to do alot of the stuff on my list before adding more power, but I want the engine,trans,suspension etc running top notch before adding larger turbo's etc). Just doing research right now.

 

[1995silvergst]

Research ducting and use common sense. You want to make sure the air doesnt go through the fmic and then out. Or thru the condenser then out.

Couldn't say it better! Notice the avatar pic, ETS 7" kit ducted in FL 88+ ambient humid and i run 190 coolant temps even after pulls! Air must be channeled correctly. And as for fans, our factory 3 speed fans are awesome! If you have a thick radiator core or huge turbine then maybe a slim fan but keep the oem if you can.

 

[4Lurker4]

Does the 2gb eclipse front bumper provide better airflow to the smic as well?

Yeah, it works, it's what I was using before:

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but you can tell the ducting on the passenger side of the 2gb Talon is better and bigger (although you could always use the fog light location on the 2gb Eclipse to get more flow)

You can't really see how big the Dejon SMIC is because of the custom fiberglass enclosure/duct I made for it so:

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and for comparison, since they don't show up often:

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Only thing not shown is thickness, they are all about twice the thickness of the stock unit.

 

[96atawd]

Don't let all the overheating threads scare you into using a dinky SMIC and modified stock turbo (t28). My Punishment FMIC keeps my intake temps around ambient and coolant temps in the 200° range. I'm only using a single AC fan for cooling, an old stock 4g64 radiator, and no ducting of any kind.

Now either I'm a magician, or all these cheap aftermarket fans/radiators along with a weak cooling system are the actual cause of overheating issues. Not large, high flowing FMIC's.

As for fitment issues with the stock fans and 16g J-pipe...

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More info on the Punishment Racing FMIC install can be found here
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/440986-2ga-punishment-racing-fmic-install-guide.html

I'm just not really feeling going extreme with this car/build as it is my DD, so I am kind of set on using a "big" t28 with all supporting mods and a "big" smic with good ducting, as I feel as should be happy with the power.

Hopefully one day I can get a cheap Gsx or Awd Tsi and go all out with a bigger turbo and fmic etc etc as my "fun" car. So for now I think Im just going t28/smic untill I can hopefully get another awd dsm for racing/fun.

 

[NeedTalonNow]

What about a mishimoto universal j line fmic? Are any dsmers running this?