E85 Conversion??

[c_riggan]

What is needed to convert to E85? And is it really that much better? I have noticed it's cheaper than Premium, and if it also performs better, then I may as well do it.

I have found a kit, but it is only really a box that plugs between injectors and injector harness. Is that kit OK or should I actually get new injectors, fuel pump, and ECU??

I do not have an eprom ECU and they are getting really hard to find. Was thinking AEM EMS.

I will eventually need all the new fuel system anyway, but can not really afford it right now being in school and all.

Oh, and sorry for not posting in Tech forum, but I still can not post there????

Thanks for any input.

Chris

 

[spydermanX98X]

AEM EMS is very advanced tuning system that is usually used in legit race cars, not daily drivers. Eproms litter the classifieds and can be had from 150-250 dollars, and the next step is to get dsmlink. You will need larger injectors and if you havent upgraded the fuel pump, that too. My understanding is because e85 has a lower energy than gasoline you have to inject more of it, but because it has a very octane you can run both more boost and timing to make more power.

 

[jrohner]

If you just threw in 650/680cc injectors, you could run it with no fuel management changes, but the stock ecu is programmed so rich on WOT it may not run that great.

I would recommend getting 750's and an eprom ecu to tune, or an SAFC2 will also work just fine. You need to lean the high load quite a bit.

When I ran 680's and an SAFC2 I had the low load corrections at about 0% and the high load at around -20% I believe.

If you can get a deal on a 95 EPROM ECU I would recommend going that route though. The stock 2g timing maps are really conservative, especially for E85. If you get other mods at some point you will be all set for tuning with the EPROM ECU and a chip burner from moates.net (or better yet an emulator). For the price of an SAFC, there's really not much reason to not go with an EPROM tune instead, I think it's easier to EPROM tune anyways.

 

[c_riggan]

Well, I'm already running a full turbo back 3" system, and the HKS filter and hard pipe. I plan on replacing the turbo with a PTE 50 DBB and a Kinetic Front Mount. I know I need to upgrade the fuel system then, and now that I know it needs to be done with E85 also, looks like I'll wait a while to do the switch then.

Thanks for the quick answers...

(Need a new turbo soon anyhow, its screaming quite often now)

Chris

 

[jrohner]

Well if you have all the other supporting mods and are getting a 50 anyways you might as well go with the EPROM tuning instead of wasting time and money on an afc. 850cc injectors would be about right for a 50 and E85, although since 1000cc's are not much difference price wise get them instead unless you are going with an afc. For an E85 fuel system you only need injectors and a 255hp pump and you should be good to go.

 

[JayRolla]

Well I know a few guys with dsm's running a cheap e85 setup that is working out really great and here how they are doing it.

Fuel injectors (850cc+)-$200-$350
Evo Maf/3g maf-$15-$100
SAFC-$100-$250
255lph-$100

This setup seems to be working great and the evo maf leans you out so much that you can run up too 1200cc injectors no problem. Its also a breeze to tune. You may want to bump base timing back to around 0-2* to be safe but still runs fine. Just keep a good eye on the logger. 22* is about the highest you should go safe, but a lot of guys are running more on e85. Some say you can get away with it since ethanol burns slower.

Wish I would have thought of it before going with the maf-t because driveability and tuning is a lot better. This setup can be had for $415-$800 depending on how well you shop. This would cover the entire fuel system to swap over to e85 safely. I guess I could add a wbo2, but I expect all serious dsm'ers to have one already.

 

[c_riggan]

Well if you have all the other supporting mods and are getting a 50 anyways you might as well go with the EPROM tuning instead of wasting time and money on an afc. 850cc injectors would be about right for a 50 and E85, although since 1000cc's are not much difference price wise get them instead unless you are going with an afc. For an E85 fuel system you only need injectors and a 255hp pump and you should be good to go.

Thank you.. I have been wondering which injectors would better suit that 50. May as well do the fuel system first, then the Turbo and FMIC. i will be going with your advicec and grabbing the 1000cc then, still thinking about ecu options though. And I need to learn how to do the maps.. never tooned before, but am more than willing to learn. No AFC here though, I want my car done right, not hacked.. no offence to AFC users...

Well I know a few guys with dsm's running a cheap e85 setup that is working out really great and here how they are doing it.

Fuel injectors (850cc+)-$200-$350
Evo Maf/3g maf-$15-$100
SAFC-$100-$250
255lph-$100

This setup seems to be working great and the evo maf leans you out so much that you can run up too 1200cc injectors no problem. Its also a breeze to tune. You may want to bump base timing back to around 0-2* to be safe but still runs fine. Just keep a good eye on the logger. 22* is about the highest you should go safe, but a lot of guys are running more on e85. Some say you can get away with it since ethanol burns slower.

Wish I would have thought of it before going with the maf-t because driveability and tuning is a lot better. This setup can be had for $415-$800 depending on how well you shop. This would cover the entire fuel system to swap over to e85 safely. I guess I could add a wbo2, but I expect all serious dsm'ers to have one already.

Thank you on that bit of info.... The 3G maf is bigger than the 2g?? Flows more? Wider ranges? Thanks on the info everyone.. been more than helpfull

Chris

 

[JayRolla]

The evo maf I think flows 60% better than the 2g maf and can handle over 600whp. It is real easy to tune. AFC is not hacking. It works great with e85. Only thing that sucks is you have no timing control. Dsmlink would be the way to go.

 

[z24frank]

Ethanol / E85 Fuel Conversion (DSM) - Modern Automotive Performance

 

[Project2G]

Ethanol / E85 Fuel Conversion (DSM) - Modern Automotive Performance

I would upgrade to link though..

 

[lowexpectations]

Just a few things you might want to keep in mind.

Yes E85 can be cheaper than pump gas but you also have to figure in the mpg's that you will loose. You may soon realize that E85 is not cheaper.

Running big injectors on a daily driver can have some drawbacks as well and effect driveability some.

My advice to you would be to stay on pump gas for now and switch over to E85 later on down the road.

 

[datrip]

I would agree and say to leave the E85 to a bigger non DD build. Its good stuff for the price, but it takes so much fuel to do the same thing as C16. Imagine getting half the fuel milage and having to re-fill twice as often.

 

[15psi88]

Well for one thing c16 probably between $8-12/gal so why you even brought that up I'm not sure. OP, if I were you I wouldn't hesitate to make the switch. Gas mileage is a large concern of many of you for some reason sure, but e85 isn't going to cut you 50% .The fact that it is cheaper at the pump and the added opportunity for more power greatly outweighs gas mileage for me.

 

[lowexpectations]

Well for one thing c16 probably between $8-12/gal so why you even brought that up I'm not sure. OP, if I were you I wouldn't hesitate to make the switch. Gas mileage is a large concern of many of you for some reason sure, but e85 isn't going to cut you 50% .The fact that it is cheaper at the pump and the added opportunity for more power greatly outweighs gas mileage for me.

I do agree with you on some of the information you mentioned but take into account availibility, about a 20% reduction in fuel econemy, and the fact that it is not even needed for someone unless they are pushing their setup past normal efficiency range. I agree it has done some pretty nice things for guys wanting to get the most out of a 16g due to a 16g being knock happy at high boost lvls. I know I am showing alot of reasons for someone to stay away from it but I want the OP to know exactly what he is getting himself into.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I shot you a PM, hit me back and we can talk and I can explain it all to you.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Well I know a few guys with dsm's running a cheap e85 setup that is working out really great and here how they are doing it.

Fuel injectors (850cc+)-$200-$350
Evo Maf/3g maf-$15-$100
SAFC-$100-$250
255lph-$100

This setup seems to be working great and the evo maf leans you out so much that you can run up too 1200cc injectors no problem. Its also a breeze to tune. You may want to bump base timing back to around 0-2* to be safe but still runs fine. Just keep a good eye on the logger. 22* is about the highest you should go safe, but a lot of guys are running more on e85. Some say you can get away with it since ethanol burns slower.

Wish I would have thought of it before going with the maf-t because driveability and tuning is a lot better. This setup can be had for $415-$800 depending on how well you shop. This would cover the entire fuel system to swap over to e85 safely. I guess I could add a wbo2, but I expect all serious dsm'ers to have one already.

He will need something better than an SAFC to control a set of 850cc injectors. People have trouble's controlling 650's with a SAFC. With a PTE turbo he will be fine with the 2g MAF as it will be very difficult to overrun it.

The evo maf I think flows 60% better than the 2g maf and can handle over 600whp. It is real easy to tune. AFC is not hacking. It works great with e85. Only thing that sucks is you have no timing control. Dsmlink would be the way to go.

The EVO MAF starts to overrun at around 56lbs/min instead of the stock 2g 52lbs/min. Not quite a 60% increase. If using DSMLink or an EVO ecu in this setup, which I HIGHLY recommend, the 2g MAF will be fine to use.

I would agree and say to leave the E85 to a bigger non DD build. Its good stuff for the price, but it takes so much fuel to do the same thing as C16. Imagine getting half the fuel milage and having to re-fill twice as often.

There are a TON of people that have recently switched over to E85 down here and have dropped some MPG but nowhere near enough to make them want to switch back. E85 is proving to be better than leaded 110 octane down here in its timing capabilities. The average person is probably dropping 15-20% on there fuel consumption. While being able to run 35psi on an HTA35r on just everyday 2.00 a gallon pump gas with in excess of 25 degree's of timing. I would say that is a pretty impressive fuel.

 

[BlitZ-Carn]

Wow this was very informative, dsm owners rule haha! for fun I went to civic forums, what a load of sh*t that is. I was thinking of converting to e85 for the price, but if ## dumping twice as much fuel, ## not really saving money, the power is nice, but ill be happy with pump gas then.

 

[05gt Guru]

There are alto of subies tuned for e85, the power increase is awesome most guys see about 40-50whp more than 93. As for the decreased gas mileage just to set it straight its 30% worse. Since e85 is only 30cents less a gallon now you will loose money but you will have more hp.

 

[jrohner]

I would agree and say to leave the E85 to a bigger non DD build. Its good stuff for the price, but it takes so much fuel to do the same thing as C16. Imagine getting half the fuel milage and having to re-fill twice as often.

I lost about 2mpg at the most from my 91 octane SAFC2 tune to my EPROM E85 + LC1 Wideband tune. I get up to 23MPG on the highway and usually get 18MPG short trips / in town. I ran FWD for a while, and then I got up to almost 20MPG on the short trips since I couldn't use even 1/3 throttle until 3rd gear (highway MPG was probably about the same in FWD).

You just need to hook the LC1 wideband up to your ecu so you can lean the closed loop and you get most of your gas mileage back.

And, no you don't need massive injectors for E85 like most people think (unless you tune ridiculously rich). Look at my numbers on 750cc injectors and my cousin has about 90 less hp on 680's on E85.

 

[staztrx250]

Great info!!! I'm switching my bone stock DSM over to e85. What to you guys think about this set up?
FIC 750cc injects
walbro 255 with afpr
1g bov
stock turbo running more boost not sure how much yet
a few other bolt ons nothing to radical
lc-1 or aem wideban (what do you guys think is better?)
Now the bigger question
what should i do for management?
I want to get dsmlink v3 or v3 lite, but I'm not sure what else is really out there?
besides a safc or a neo

Also can I run the evo maf on my 2g? What is speed density?
Keep in mind I'm trying to set up a good base for a 400whp daily drive once i have the money to build up a motor for it.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Great info!!! I'm switch my bone stock DSM over to e85. What to you guys think about this set up?
FIC 750cc injects
walbro 255 with afpr
1g bov
stock turbo running more boost not sure how much yet
a few other bolt ons nothing to radical
lc-1 or aem wideban (what do you guys think is better?)
Now the bigger question
what should i do for management?
I want to get dsmlink v3 or v3 lite, but I'm not sure what else is really out there?
besides a safc or a neo

Also can I run the evo maf on my 2g? What is speed density?
Keep in mind I'm trying to set up a good base for a 400whp daily drive once i have the money to build up a motor for it.

750cc is a good size but I would go bigger, 950cc just in case you want to upgrade to a 16 later.
Walbro 255lph is always a must but there is no need for an AFPR. The stock one will hold find as long as it is in good condition. If it doesn't hold the pressure, then replace it with a new OEM one.
1g BOV will hold fine.
Stock turbo would be good at 23-24psi. I would bent the wastegate arm to ensure it holds this psi.
As far as a wideband, the AEM UEGO is always a good inexpensive choice. Just make sure to place it properly in the system.
For engine management, read up on flashing a stock 98-99 ECU. $125 for the ECU, $169 for the cable and you have all the capabilites of DSMLink or AEM.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/347070-ceddymod-v1-ecuflash.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tun...first-flashed-dsm-ecu-98-99-flashing-faq.html

 

[Project2G]

Basically to run E85 you need bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, and something to control the fuel/timing. E85 requires roughly 20%-30% more consumption than gasoline, so everything fuel related needs to be up to par.

The big advantage of E85 is that it has a high octane rating (I've heard about 105) and costs a bit less than pump gas. Basically it will allow you to run significantly higher boost than pump gas at a far better price than race gas.

It does however come with drawbacks; for one your gas mileage is going to drop significantly (remember 20%-30% more consumption versus gasoline), but with the proper setup you can switch back to regular gas any time you'd like, and then switch back to E85 when you're headed to the track. You'll also often hear that it's bad for your fuel lines and can gunk up filters since it's practically a cleaner, though I've never heard of anyone actually having those problems personally. Probably the largest problem is that it's not extremely common, and should you run low on E85 you'll be SOL if you can't find a station unless you keep your laptop/tuning software in your car.

There's a conversion thread here: http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showth...hlight=run+e85

Also it appears that E85 pumps are shutting down due to low demand, not sure about your area though: http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showth...hlight=run+e85

Just for some more fun he's a E85 pros and cons thread: http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showth...hlight=run+e85

Here's a thread with some people actually running E85: E85 is it runnable without dsmlink? - DSM Forums: Mitsubishi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser, and Eagle Talon Forum: DSMtalk.com

What is speed density?

sd101 [ECMTuning - wiki]

 

[haswesley]

I have ran straight E85 now for about 2 years on my DD. I drive my car 80 miles each day. No problems, except you will need to clean the black tar off the end of the injectors every 20K miles or so or just run 1 tank of pump gas every few thousand miles. Just remember to correct your tuning when you convert back and forth between pump gas and E85! The number of gas stations carrying E85 is a problem. There are very few near me in Coloardo. It takes 30% more E85 to make the same energy as pump gas, so you will use about 30% more E85. But, who cares about gas mileage when you can crank up that boost safely? E85 is so popular for turbo cars because you have to put 30% more in the cylinders than pump gas. The more liquid going into the cylinders keeps pistons, etc. cooler and much less risk of knock, melting pistons, etc. Switch to E85.