Dual tip plug?

[chilled]

I went to napa today and supposably ordered the 'oem' plug. It costed me 18$ for four plugs and they are dual tip? Are these ok to run?

 

[silver bullit]

What name brand are they?

 

[DSMunknown]

I went to napa today and supposably ordered the 'oem' plug. It costed me 18$ for four plugs and they are dual tip? Are these ok to run?

What name brand are they?

It doesn't matter what brand they are, they are crap. In my understanding, the eletrical jump between the center electrode and the side electrode only happens between one side electode. This means that having the extra one (or two or three in some cases) doesn't mean a damn thing. Thus, it makes it completely pointless to purchase such spark plugs that claim to give a stronger spark. As I see it, it's a low marketing trick by the manufacturers.

Go back and purchase some NGK BPR6ES plugs for 10 bucks and be done with it. You can also purchase them here or here.

Here is a photo for a quick reference.

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[daren_p]

Which specific plug are they? Are cars (well atleast 2g's) came with dual electrode plugs from the factory, so if you picked up the same NKG plugs you should be fine. The std Copper, single electrode NGK plugs tend to work the best on our cars. They offer them in different heat ranges, so you can run a plug suited to your mods/boost. They are also cheeper, usually $8-10 for a set of 4.

Now if you got a dual electrode platinum plug, you will probably run into miss fire issues.

 

[Talesin]

I'm currently giving the NGK BPR6EY a shot... thicker center electrode, with a 'V' cut into it. Getting misfires, but I'm not sure if that's just the car, or the spark plugs' fault. Guess I'll find out when I get back on BPR6ES, or possibly 7s.

Seconded, ran Bosch plugs for all of a week. Horrible misfires, low power. No idea why...

 

[Defiant]

Factory stock are the dual-electrode NGKs.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110483
I know of no payoff in running them. The spark's only going to jump the least-resistive path. Perhaps having a second electrode is supposed to give the illusion of a second opportunity in the compressed and more-resistant atmosphere of a supercharged combustion chamber, but you already have as many paths as there are atoms or covalent rings or whatever the hell they were talking about in that part of physics class that day that girl was wearing that damned yellow sweater.
V-groove or ND's U-groove, or Splitfire's forked tongue is all horseshit.

 

[Turboeagletalon]

ya electrical current is going to jump to the closser metal contacted. No matter what. Plus think of it this way. The more objects you put in the way of the gas/ fuel mix. The harder is will be for your ignition system to fire your cylinders.

Also those platnum plugs in are motors are crap. Are motors run way to high of compression, and heat for them and could burn them up.

 

[daren_p]

Also those platnum plugs in are motors are crap. Are motors run way to high of compression, and heat for them and could burn them up.

Yes platinum plugs don't work well with out cars, but since when do are motors run way to high of compression 8.5 to 1 (2g) isn't considered high by any means, actually the opposite, our motors run low compression. I'm thinking maybe your refering to boost pressure?

 

[fourreGsixty3]

The multi ground electrodes are used so that way if one tip break's off it will have one, two, or three more possible tips to use, but the spark will only jump to one of them. Talesin you may want to pull the plug's to check them to see if they are tan, black, or broken. I have the NGK BPR6es' in my DSMs, and don't have any problem's at all with them.

 

[Defiant]

The multi ground electrodes are used so that way if one tip break's off it will have one, two, or three more possible tips to use,

And you'd sure not want to run out of fresh shrapnel to feed the turbine impeller, in case the first two or three shots didn't torpedo the boat.

 

[DSMunknown]

Factory stock are the dual-electrode NGKs.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110483
I know of no payoff in running them. The spark's only going to jump the least-resistive path. Perhaps having a second electrode is supposed to give the illusion of a second opportunity in the compressed and more-resistant atmosphere of a supercharged combustion chamber, but you already have as many paths as there are atoms or covalent rings or whatever the hell they were talking about in that part of physics class that day that girl was wearing that damned yellow sweater.
V-groove or ND's U-groove, or Splitfire's forked tongue is all horseshit.

Thanks Guy. I knew my understanding was based off of some cockamamie idea like that, just couldn't put it into precise sentances. Thanks for the clarification.

The multi ground electrodes are used so that way if one tip break's off it will have one, two, or three more possible tips to use, but the spark will only jump to one of them. Talesin you may want to pull the plug's to check them to see if they are tan, black, or broken. I have the NGK BPR6es' in my DSMs, and don't have any problem's at all with them.

Just curious as to the conditions a side electrode (or two or three) would detach itself from the rest of the plug. Maybe if some idiot regapped the plug one hundred times, or if the craftsmanship was extremely poor (though I doubt that because they're most definately made by high-tech machinery and computers), but other than that I don't see a quality product having the side electrode just snap off. Perhaps you could provide an example (or two)?

 

[Splitpi]

I would think the arc would jump from electrode to electrode like a jacobs ladder with a multi-point system... thus providing a wider area of spark. While the arc can only be on one electrode at a time it does jump around.

Edit:
Whether this actually produces a tangible difference, I have no idea.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

No the electrodes are grounded to the engine, so electricy goes straight to ground.

Defiant: Im not the one that made the design, thats just the idea behind it. I think its a dumb idea to think its OK to have little pieces of ground electrodes in the CC possibly welding themselves the the piston. Id rather have the NGK copper 1 ground electrode tip, so that way I will know if the tip breaks off by it misfiring most likely.

Anthony it is possible that detonation can break the tip off, or just from runing too lean, and creating too high of CC temp's, and the two in conjuction Im sure would do the job to break a tip off. Also nothing is perfect even if its made by a machine, they push out so many a few are bound to have defect's.

 

[Defiant]

I would think the arc would jump from electrode to electrode like a jacobs ladder with a multi-point system... thus providing a wider area of spark. While the arc can only be on one electrode at a time it does jump around.

Edit:
Whether this actually produces a tangible difference, I have no idea.

Interesting you'd mention a Jacob's ladder, when there's a company named Jacobs making a multi-spark ignition system (inventor's name, just a coincidence).
My question was always, if you start a fire with the spark, what's still around there to catch fire? And you do not want more than one flame front. I don't know how aircraft engines with multi-plug ignitions deal with this, other than most aircraft engines (Lycoming, Continental, Franklin, Rodax) are hideously primitive, low-speed pushrod designs. I don't know if any of the Datsun Nap-Z things run both plugs at the same time.

 

[Splitpi]

Interesting you'd mention a Jacob's ladder, when there's a company named Jacobs making a multi-spark ignition system (inventor's name, just a coincidence).
My question was always, if you start a fire with the spark, what's still around there to catch fire? And you do not want more than one flame front. I don't know how aircraft engines with multi-plug ignitions deal with this, other than most aircraft engines (Lycoming, Continental, Franklin, Rodax) are hideously primitive, low-speed pushrod designs. I don't know if any of the Datsun Nap-Z things run both plugs at the same time.

I agree... I don't think there is much gain if any from the multi-point. Perhaps someone has some test data to show otherwise? I mentioned the jacobs ladder to illustrate my point that an electric arc is not static and will move around. In the case of a Jacobs ladder it moves upwards as the single electrode moves farther from anode. The point being of course with a "V" configuration or even multi point, they are still the same ground point electrically speaking and like in a Jacobs Ladder, the arc will jump around.

Also the "idea" is that combustion takes time. It is not instantaneous event. So the idea is that the arc will spark two or more locations faster than the combustion could reach that other point... thus increasing the "flame" and a quicker more even burn.

But as I said, I have no idea wether it actually produces a real gain or measurable difference. I would suspect not.

 

[wt71gas]

There is NO performance gain from running a dual tip plug but there is a gain. You are all correct about the electricity taking the path of least resistance so the plug will only fire on one at a time. As stuff builds up on the plugs it changes the resistance and the plug will fire from the other electrode. The benefit is that your plug will last twice as long as a standard plug. They are also twice the price or more. If you already have those plugs and dont want to return them they will work fine if they are the oe like ngk but you can run the standard ngk v-power also and thats fine. As others have said stay away from platinum. I would not run any other dual electrode plug other than a factory type NGK.

 

[tqmx1]

I don't know how aircraft engines with multi-plug ignitions deal with this, other than most aircraft engines (Lycoming, Continental, Franklin, Rodax) are hideously primitive, low-speed pushrod designs. I don't know if any of the Datsun Nap-Z things run both plugs at the same time.

There are two major reasons for dual ignition 1 the size of the cylinder bore & the time of flame front movement. In the BIG round motors you can get bores of up to 6.125" and a stroke of 6.875" x 9 =29.9lit. and they are boosting up to 11lbs. and 2800rpms pulling 1525 hp. The flame front is moving at xrate (I dont have the ## in front of me) but for one plug the piston would be 1/2 the way down the bore before combustion would be compleat. and the chance of preignition goes SKY HIGH!

The other reaason, system reduntsey(sp) a car or boat you pull over to the side or drift and fix the problem, a aircraft you still have to get it on the ground (I have been there) The smaller engines is more for reason 2

And there is a Jacobs aircraft engine (AKA the shakey Jake)

As for the Datsun yes so they could get the silly thing to pass smog.

And back to the real world

 

[Defiant]

There are two major reasons for dual ignition 1 the size of the cylinder bore & the time of flame front movement. In the BIG round motors you can get bores of up to 6.125" and a stroke of 6.875" x 9 =29.9lit. and they are boosting up to 11lbs. and 2800rpms pulling 1525 hp. The flame front is moving at xrate (I dont have the ## in front of me) but for one plug the piston would be 1/2 the way down the bore before combustion would be compleat. and the chance of preignition goes SKY HIGH!

That's fine for Whirlwinds and P&W corncobs and the like, but what about "little" Cessna motors?

The other reaason, system reduntsey(sp) a car or boat you pull over to the side or drift and fix the problem, a aircraft you still have to get it on the ground (I have been there)

Oh, they'll get to the ground just fine. Count on it.

The smaller engines is more for reason 2

Well, there's forces and dynamics going on with marine and air engines that car people just don't suspect.

 

[Turboeagletalon]

I have to say this from the bottom of my heart.
THANKYOU FOR THIS INFORMATION. You cleared up allot of questions form me