Dsmlink's Antilag really bad for turbo's??

[NeEmO6]

What im wondering is how many of you guys using the antilag feature are going through turbos?? The reason I ask is my buddy is on his 3rd pte scm 60-1 turbo within 3k miles if even that on his car. We had no explanation on what was causing the problem. Recently i go to check the shaft play on my turbo and low and behold it has some play not enough to call the turbo bad, but enough to cause concern. Considering the turbo (pte scm50trim) has maybe 5-7k miles on it and went it was put on had no play whatsoever. I Drove the car about 2 weeks with the turbo. So I instantly thought of the antilag and my buddies car. We came to thinking, and he had no turbo problems until he started using the antilag. This is my 4th turbo and never had an issue until now considering the only time I used the antilag was w/ this turbo. Maybe its coincidence I have no idea, I would like to hear if anyone else is having issue w/ their turbo's going out in relation to the antilag.

 

[alexg1323]

not that i have any experience with PTE turbos but maybe its cause they suck. No i wouldnt really count antilag as one of the top 10 best things to do to a turbo, but none the less its only for a short period of time. Ive been using this feature very heavily for over 10k on my turbo thats already a year old and have no issues. Its an FPTDO6-h. Ive gotten flames out the back with the antilag once or twice too. But if it still concerns you and your going for max longjevity i would just turn off the antilag and only use the delay box feature to launch.

 

[Drag_S13]

Anti-Lag used in moderation should not significantly shorten a turbo's life, especially not that much. We have used anti-lag on several of our cars running Autronic ECU's, never having a problem with turbo longevity. What are his EGT's like under anti-lag? AFR? Often, people don't add enough fuel during anti-lag to bring EGT's down to a safe level. On one of our cars, I was able to get 14.5psi (could have gotten more, as it came up to 14.5psi very quickly, which is the wastegate spring) on a PT67 @ 5k with just a little anti-lag and a VERY safe EGT of ~1100*-1200* F. Just like nitrous, anti-lag can be very useful and safe when used correctly.

I would look more into oil supply/return problems before pointing the finger at anti-lag. Where is he getting his oil source? Cylinder head or oil filter housing? Boost level?

Without more information, it's hard to tell what the problem might be.

Good Luck
-Blake

 

[mavisky]

Anti-Lag used in moderation should not significantly shorten a turbo's life, especially not that much. We have used anti-lag on several of our cars running Autronic ECU's, never having a problem with turbo longevity. What are his EGT's like under anti-lag? AFR? Often, people don't add enough fuel during anti-lag to bring EGT's down to a safe level. On one of our cars, I was able to get 14.5psi (could have gotten more, as it came up to 14.5psi very quickly, which is the wastegate spring) on a PT67 @ 5k with just a little anti-lag and a VERY safe EGT of ~1100*-1200* F. Just like nitrous, anti-lag can be very useful and safe when used correctly.

I would look more into oil supply/return problems before pointing the finger at anti-lag. Where is he getting his oil source? Cylinder head or oil filter housing? Boost level?

Without more information, it's hard to tell what the problem might be.

Good Luck
-Blake

Just wanted to say that this post is probably spot on for the diagnosis. Either something is inherently wrong with this turbo setup or the anti-lag isn't setup 100% correctly. Now I don't know how the anti-lag system is tuned on the dsm-link, so that may affect just how much you can do with it. Either way I wouldn't use it through town on a daily basis or anything, just for when you're at the track.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Anti-Lag used in moderation should not significantly shorten a turbo's life, especially not that much. We have used anti-lag on several of our cars running Autronic ECU's, never having a problem with turbo longevity. What are his EGT's like under anti-lag? AFR? Often, people don't add enough fuel during anti-lag to bring EGT's down to a safe level. On one of our cars, I was able to get 14.5psi (could have gotten more, as it came up to 14.5psi very quickly, which is the wastegate spring) on a PT67 @ 5k with just a little anti-lag and a VERY safe EGT of ~1100*-1200* F. Just like nitrous, anti-lag can be very useful and safe when used correctly.

I would look more into oil supply/return problems before pointing the finger at anti-lag. Where is he getting his oil source? Cylinder head or oil filter housing? Boost level?

Without more information, it's hard to tell what the problem might be.

Good Luck
-Blake

Well since next season I'll be on a 5000 stall, we better pull ~30psi out of it by then. I was getting full boost in 1st, I don't think that should be a problem. The new Comp T/As's should handle the power just fine

 

[MNGSX]

Its probably not setup right.

I used it sparingly.

Id set a start point just below launch rpm (it has veh spd trigger too on link).

Then it wont engage unless you mean it... Even if only wired to the clutch switch alone.

Rev just below the trigger point pre stage via foot... When staged and expecting the tree to drop floor it and it will engage. This way you are'nt sitting on the launch/ALS it all day long.

Rally ALS.. Is different.. Adding alot of extra fuel and timing retard can be pretty harsh.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Rally ALS.. Is different.. Adding alot of extra fuel and timing retard can be pretty harsh.

Uhh.. how do you think any anti-lag works?

 

[MNGSX]

Uhh.. how do you think any anti-lag works?

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Look at the date on the post pE%!s breath.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78399&highlight=Antilag

The ignition cut antilag is just a side effect of one method of stutterbox type of revlimiting.

It is refered to as "Drag Antilag"

It does'nt work like rally antilag. It wont engage at speed, when the throttle is not open or when the clutch switch isn't engaged.

Rally ALS works different.


http://f2.autospeed.com/A_0161/cms/article.html

Read the whole thing.

Then

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Mitsu...o_V/EvoV_3.html


All you really need to do to a stock manifold is D&T for some fittings and make a common air rail out of tubing to distribute air to each runner.

Get it pretty close to the head. The air coming out the exhaust will be pretty low on oxygen obviously as compared to intake charge air.

So it is hot and low on the stuff that helps fuel burn. In a nutshell.

So we find a way to squirt some more air in there to help the burn. That actually lowers temps and detonation in the exhaust manifold compared to ALS without the exhaust manifold air taps.

Then the ignition is retarded and more fuel is added. The spark comes after TDC of the compression stroke which results in more burn out the exhaust. The injectors are then used by the ALS to add extra fuel.

How hard or soft the ALS is depends on how far you retard the ignition and how much fuel you add.

Im thinking the ultimate best system is to apply seperate fuel, air and spark to the exhaust manifold. If one had dynamic control of all three a really potent ALS would not be as abusive or hard to tame. That is a tall order however.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

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Look at the date on the post pE%!s breath.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78399&highlight=Antilag

It's called a 2step versus "anti-lag." Let's not spend 3 pages arguing terms. Point is, I could make just under 10lbs on a 6000 stutter box, pull 25deg of timing and turn it down to 5000rpm 2step and it would rip to 1 bar (this was pre-boost controller when we played with it). I have no doubt that -25deg at 5000rpm would make anything we want on the line.

If you think it's setup wrong, maybe you could offer some first hand experience or knowledge about anti-lag and how to set it up. I've made a lot of changes in my map this winter, could try some new launch settings as well

EDIT: damn that's an old article. I think I remember reading that

 

[MNGSX]

Sorry I got so cranky... I got in a flame war with someone who has the IQ of like your toenail or something on another board.


I read that post fast and thought I saw "I dont think you know how any anti-lag works" and got pissed.

There are many different anti-lag strategies. The most common is the simple ignition cut 2 step.. Whatever you want to call it remains a true form of antilag..

Incidently, not all anti-lag systems retard timing and add fuel... You can but most just drop spark on cylinder. Drop it on different hole the next go round etc.. Like MSD's soft touch built into a ECU... The start of this thread was all about DSM-link.. You have an autronic. Thats like comparing a 1.8 to a 2.0 turbo...

With the autronic you some of the most flexible and programable anti-lag options around anywhere. Had you said you had that ECU... I'd have known that you can do alot more than most ECU's.

You could even do fuel cut rev limits but on a turbo car that is retarded.. We both know why.. The point of that was nearly every possible combination can be pulled off with the autronic.


For lurkers going download the antilag setup pdf file at www.autronic.com

Notice it talks about a throttle kicker solenoid... This is entirely different than DSMlinks Launch Anti-lag....

This is rally antilag that keeps a spool going when you are off the throttle going thru corners.


In reality the Launch controll and flat shift setup file covers what he is working with...

Even flat shift functions the same as launch rev control when it comes to a spooling effect. Well a spool maintainer... In both instances the throttle is held open via the mechanical link between it and the accelerator pedal.. To limit rpm at launch or unload the input shaft of the trans the ECU drops spark. The autronic can add some extra fuel and posibly also retard timing.. I'm sure you want to just drop spark and leave it at that with the NLTS or Flat Shift... It allows more RPM to be bled off faster than just retarding.. It does'nt stay engaged too long. The fuel will get burned in the exh mani anyway...

On the launch control I could see how retarding timing could help since it may actually be less abusive to the turbine and build more boost.

Since droping spark completely on a cylinder is the most retarded timing can get = not neccessarily a good thing.

When dropped the next cylinders exhaust flame lights the dropped cylinders fuel.

Delaying all of them as opposed to just not firing a cylinder it allows the charge to burn in the cylinder a bit as oposed to one cylinders charge buring in the exhaust manifold.

All cylinders get lit in the combustion chamber but late enough in the cycle to still get pushed out the exhaust valve quite early in the cumbustion process.

Therefore retarding all cyls timing has more softer pulses. So not as much of a boom.. boom... boom going on in the exhaust manifold to wail on the turbine wheel. Tuned right more like woooooshh... So this = a better system than most... Hence why I was like huh no it dont work that way untill I had time to look at the mod list and saw the au.

This is more than most ECU's allow you to do.. It is still different than even the autronics rally system since they are designed for two completely different racing applications...

So your Rally and Drag systems are still completely different yet share more characteristics than many other ECU's.


As for setup the best man to ask here seems to be Drag_S13 I have only worked with pro-efi and a touch with an AEM...

 

[Drag_S13]

On the launch control I could see how retarding timing could help since it may actually be less abusive to the turbine and build more boost.

Heh, it seemed pretty violent to me... 2-5' flames out of the side pipe, the whoel car shaking and it burning black spots into the ground from the external . With just a standard 2step, boost builds slowly and not very much is possible, at least with Autronic's 2step. With -25* adjustment on the base timing map, timing @ 0psi was around 0, and from there on it went as much as about -7. With an additional 10% fuel over the base fuel map, things rocked and rolled pretty damn good. Boost would go 0 as soon as the throttle was wide open, creep from 0-5psi over the next second or so, and then straight to 1.0bar. I guarantee I could have gotten as much as the turbo could make at that point No real point for it on a stock transmission, becuase a launch on 30psi would have been instant tranny soup.

-Blake

 

[4BangerV8Killer]

interesting

 

[Caithness]

Back from the dead.

It seems like people are talking about fairly radical timing retard in this thread. Are there still benefits to be had by lowering timing to a more reasonable level, say down to 5 degrees advance, or maybe 0 degrees at most?