Do I really need 550cc injectors??

[Cheks_Talon_TSi]

Recently I built up a new engine for my 1G DSM. My major upgrades were: 2G pistons 0.020", HKS cams, ported head with 3-angle valve job, 2g ported exh manifold, 2g ported 02 housing, Ported EVO III BIG 16G, mitsubishi multilayer steel head gasket, mbc, 3" downpipe with cutout valve that leaves fully opened downpipe, walbro 255 fuel pump, rewire kit, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, plus all the basic and free mods.

I am running with stock injectors and with the stock ecu. Yesterday we go to the 1/4mi race track. We are logging the engine with an innovate wideband. We set the fuel psi at 50 just to be sure we were running on the "safe side" since we haven't tested before. Almost all the 1/4 track the wideband was measuring 10.2-10.4 (rich) but as soon as the car reach 6500rpms the wideband reads 13.285 (lean) all of a sudden. It does the same in second and third gear at high rpms (between 6500-7000rpms) it gets leaner. BTW, i am shiffting at more less 6850rpm. My boost gauge is reading 14-18psi. My best time was a 14.555 @ 97.5mph

What can be happening with my A&F mixture??? I am running rich almost all the 1/4mi but just before every shit it gets leaner Should I bought a set of 550cc and adjust the fuel pressure at 38psi (as it should be)??? If so, will I be able to control the over flow of those injectors with my adjustable FPR?? or will I need to buy some kind of dsmlink or an AFC or what is the best option i have??? I already have an eprom ecu but still unsocketed.

Well I hope to hear some comments and suggestions from those of you experienced guys.

thanks in advance

sergio g.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

50 psi is way too high 37.5 is normal, start from there. You will need DSMlink or S-AFC to tune the injectors. You can not tune it out with your AFPR.

 

[TiradoCC]

You will need something to tune with, and a SAFC will be fine.

 

[thekellbeast]

What are your IDC's (Injector Duty Cycles?). If you don't know, why the hell don't you have a logger, with a built motor and a 16g? Especially racing!

Anyways, DSMlink is a very worthwhile investment for any DSM. Pricey, but worth it.

 

[Cheks_Talon_TSi]

OK, THANKS for your replies. The answers to your questions are:
- My only logger is the 02 Wideband
- I guess my Inyectors Duty cycles are the stock ones, since I am running with the stock ECU.
- I don't know if I am getting knocks, since my only logger is my 02 sensor and my aftermarket gauges

After reading your suggestions, my conclusions are as follow:
- Bring fuel psi back to stock (38psi)
- Adjust Boost psi at 14-15psi
- Test it again in the 1/4mi track to see what happen. Hope I didn't run too lean.

Some more questions
- After that, should I get a dsmlink to go over the 15psi??
- Should I stay with my 450cc inyectors and use the dsmlink to increase the IDC's?? or should I buy a 550cc and get control of those with the dsmlink?
- Will dsmlink work as a logger of IDC and knocks??? or will i need to buy some other kind of loggeR???

I really appreciate a lot your comments and suggestions...

 

[CanadianTSi]

As far as leanin out in higher rpms, the stock ecu map is set that way to be safe. Your gettin to red line point, so it leans out.

This is just totally incorrect.

To the OP if you want to go any further your going to need a fuel system upgrade plain and simple.

You can go with the S-AFC or DSMLink, up to you really. I will say that DSMLink is 100x better than an S-AFC. Do your research.

If you do decided on DSMLink go with atleast 850's if not bigger.

 

[90gsx16g]

I didnt know they made dsm links for 1g( i could be wrong though) but a Safc will work perfect for controlling your lean problem. Oh and a data logger is a necessity

 

[JayRolla]

Yes they make dsmlink for 1g's been out for a long time now. What boost level are you at. I'm guessing that the fuel pump cannot keep up at the higher rpms. If you plan on maxing that turbo out I would go with dsmlink and 1150cc injectors so if you decide to go e85 one day you will be ready.

 

[Tarascan79]

First thing you should do besides what was mentioned above is buy dsmlink or ecu+ if you can afford it. If you can afford a dsmlink buy the largest injectors you can afford because the dsmlink can compinsate for them. If you cant afford one of those buy a safc2 and buy some 650 injectors. Your 450s arent going to cut it.

 

[Littlebeeper]

OK, THANKS for your replies. The answers to your questions are:
- My only logger is the 02 Wideband
- I guess my Inyectors Duty cycles are the stock ones, since I am running with the stock ECU.
- I don't know if I am getting knocks, since my only logger is my 02 sensor and my aftermarket gauges

After reading your suggestions, my conclusions are as follow:
- Bring fuel psi back to stock (38psi)
- Adjust Boost psi at 14-15psi
- Test it again in the 1/4mi track to see what happen. Hope I didn't run too lean.

Some more questions
- After that, should I get a dsmlink to go over the 15psi??
- Should I stay with my 450cc inyectors and use the dsmlink to increase the IDC's?? or should I buy a 550cc and get control of those with the dsmlink?
- Will dsmlink work as a logger of IDC and knocks??? or will i need to buy some other kind of loggeR???

I really appreciate a lot your comments and suggestions...

do not do what i highlited in red. if your not running lean (which is doubtful) you'll be ok but if your running lean for a long enough time, you'll be rebuilding a motor soon. Wideband is great, but logger wouldhelp tremendously as it will tell you when you knock

 

[thilaksharma]

my suggestion would be
1st get yourself a safc or a dsmlink
im sure dsmlink would be a better investment
tune it up with ## wideband
if the injectors are not enuff , then you can go purchase something bigger

 

[terminaltsi]

people have been making a lot of power for years before link came out with nothing more than a safc.
do a lot of research before you start tuning your car though. get a logger.
you have good start but get the logger and some 660cc injectors and spend a lot of time reading before you install these thing s and start tuning.

 

[2gGSX]

OK, THANKS for your replies. The answers to your questions are:
- My only logger is the 02 Wideband

- I guess my Inyectors Duty cycles are the stock ones, since I am running with the stock ECU. IDC or injector duty cycle is (simply put) how much of your injector you are using. For a given tune and a given airflow you will always need x amount of fuel in a perfect world. However, that x amount of fuel correlates to a different IDC depending on your injectors. 400cc of fuel needed total = 100 cc per injector. On the stock 450's you will be at 22.2% IDC, and on say RC1000's you will be at 10% IDC. Get the idea?

- I don't know if I am getting knocks, since my only logger is my 02 sensor and my aftermarket gauges
Since you're a 1g you have access to free logging software, and hell, you can even make your own cable. If you don't decide to go with DSMLink which has a built in datalogger, then get a PDA, make or buy a cable, and download MMCd from here http://mmcdtools.sourceforge.net/

After reading your suggestions, my conclusions are as follow:
- Bring fuel psi back to stock (38psi) Yes.

- Adjust Boost psi at 14-15psi

- Test it again in the 1/4mi track to see what happen. Hope I didn't run too lean. You stated earlier that at 50 psi base fuel pressure and boost creep (going from 14 to 18 psi) you were already leaning out according to your wideband. In this situation, if you lower your fuel pressure, you are guaranteed to lean out. A lot.

Some more questions
- After that, should I get a dsmlink to go over the 15psi?? You don't need DSMLink, but I and many others will agree that it is a very useful tool.

- Should I stay with my 450cc inyectors and use the dsmlink to increase the IDC's?? or should I buy a 550cc and get control of those with the dsmlink? DSMLink can control much bigger injectors--you don't have to limit yourself to 550cc injectors, but you can.

- Will dsmlink work as a logger of IDC and knocks??? or will i need to buy some other kind of loggeR??? It will log IDC and knock.

I really appreciate a lot your comments and suggestions...

Where to begin. My responses are in bold within your quote above.

 

[c4uldr0n]

Wow, this was very interesting to read!

My experience w/ EvoIII 16G turbo is that the 550's are not enough. Go with ~650's, get a 2G mas + SAFC *or* 2G mas + dsmlink *or* MAF-T + dsmlink, make sure your fuel pump is rewired. If in the last scenario you picked dsmlink, go bigger on the injectors! Get a "real" logger and use the wideband to help you, not as your main tuning device.

-c4

 

[90gsx16g]

Wow, this was very interesting to read!

My experience w/ EvoIII 16G turbo is that the 550's are not enough. Go with ~650's, get a 2G mas + SAFC *or* 2G mas + dsmlink *or* MAF-T + dsmlink, make sure your fuel pump is rewired. If in the last scenario you picked dsmlink, go bigger on the injectors! Get a "real" logger and use the wideband to help you, not as your main tuning device.

-c4

Not completely true, 550's will be enough you tune correctly. But in the end you might decide you want a bigger turbo more power ect.. then your 650's will be better. Tuning is the key

 

[dsm-onster]

Wow!

Whoever said that an safc is plenty for a "stockish" 1g has mislead the bunch. MAF overrun is a nasty reality, that only an upgrade can remedy. In this case, no safc alone will cure this guy's problems. . . 18psi and a 14b is maf overrun or atleast fuel cut. . .

A side: I'll bet the top (black plastic portion) of your K&N filter has sunk towards the upper honey comb. . . Mine did. This causes less flow through the metering portion of the 1g maf. Couple this w/ a removed lower honeycomb and you have a maf that will run extremely lean at full tilt. It's just easier to get air through the lower maf than through the metering section at high flow.

Get a logger. . . Any will do. What are your goals?

 

[thekellbeast]

- Should I stay with my 450cc inyectors and use the dsmlink to increase the IDC's?? or should I buy a 550cc and get control of those with the dsmlink?

Injector duty cycles aren't something you can adjust or even want to increase. It's the percent that your injector is being run at. So if you're running over 100% IDC's, it means your injectors are maxed out, and you're going to run out of fuel. You should run bigger injectors, so that you're not pushing them past 80 or 90% of their max limits. I was pushing over 100 on stock injectors, with an 18g. Since then, I've upgraded to 750cc's and I'm nowhere close to maxing them out.

IDC's are just an indicator of your injectors being maxed out, and you can log it through a pocketlogger or DSMLink.

 

[Cheks_Talon_TSi]

Wow, everything has been very useful, thanks.. let me get some points clear, before we continue this thread.

JayRolla: What boost level are you at. I'm guessing that the fuel pump cannot keep up at the higher rpms. If you plan on maxing that turbo out I would go with dsmlink and 1150cc injectors so if you decide to go e85 one day you will be ready.

ANSWER: SINCE I REPLACE MY 14B WITH MY 16G, I AM RUNNING 13-15PSI ALMOST ALL THE WAY IN THE ACCELERATION... IN HEAVE GEARS AS IN THIRD, AT HIGH RPMS I GET PEAKS OF 18PSI.... BTW, WHEN BOOST PSI BEGIN TO INCREASE OVER 15+PSI, THE A&F RATIO BEGIN TO GET LEANER.

Littlebeeper:
do not do what i highlited in red. if your not running lean (which is doubtful) you'll be ok but if your running lean for a long enough time, you'll be rebuilding a motor soon. Wideband is great, but logger wouldhelp tremendously as it will tell you when you knock

A: AS I DESCRIBED IN THE INNITIAL POST, MY CAR IS RUNNING VERY VERY RICH (10.4 IN THE WIDEBAND) ALL THE WAY FROM THE GREEN LIGHT UP TO 6200RPMS+ WHEN THE WIDEBAND REED 13.28. THE CAR IS RUNNING LEANER IN THE RANGE FROM 6200RPMS TO 7000RPMS. I AM SHIFTING AT MORE LESS 6800RPMS BEFORE THE RPM FUEL CUT. IT IS LEAN JUST A FEW SECOND BEFORE I SHIFT TO THE NEXT GEAR.

thilaksharma my suggestion would be
1st get yourself a safc or a dsmlink
im sure dsmlink would be a better investment
tune it up with ## wideband

A: I GUESS I WILL GET A DSMLINK AND A SET OF 650CC INYECTORS. I SUPSOSE THIS WILL BE A GOOD TO BEGIN TUNNING MY DSM.

2GGSX
- Test it again in the 1/4mi track to see what happen. Hope I didn't run too lean. You stated earlier that at 50 psi base fuel pressure and boost creep (going from 14 to 18 psi) you were already leaning out according to your wideband. In this situation, if you lower your fuel pressure, you are guaranteed to lean out. A lot.

A: MY IDEA BEFORE GOING TO THE TRACK AGAIN WAS TO GET MY BOOST PSI DOWN ANG GET CONTROLLED AT MAX OF 14-14.5PSI. AFTER THAT I WILL GET MY FUEL PSI DOWN TO OEM LEVEL (38PSI). I GUESS WITH THIS, I WILL RUN LESS RICH IN ALL THE RANGE BETWEEN 2000-6000RPMS, AND LESS LEAN AFTER 6200RPMS... THOSE YOU GUYS AGREE WITH MY IDEA??? I WILL GET BOOST LEVEL DOWN TO GET AN IDEAL A&f RATIO IN ALL THE LOW RPMS RANGE AND GET FUEL PSI DOWN TO GET AN IDEAL A&F RATIO AT HIGH RPMS...

dsm-onster Wow!

Whoever said that an safc is plenty for a "stockish" 1g has mislead the bunch. MAF overrun is a nasty reality, that only an upgrade can remedy. In this case, no safc alone will cure this guy's problems. . . 18psi and a 14b is maf overrun or atleast fuel cut. . .

A side: I'll bet the top (black plastic portion) of your K&N filter has sunk towards the upper honey comb. . . Mine did. This causes less flow through the metering portion of the 1g maf. Couple this w/ a removed lower honeycomb and you have a maf that will run extremely lean at full tilt. It's just easier to get air through the lower maf than through the metering section at high flow.

Get a logger. . . Any will do. What are your goals?

A: MY HONEYLOWER COMB IS REMOVED. HACKED MAF. I WILL GET A DSMLINK ASAP!!. MY GOALS?? GET THE BEST 1/4MI TIME WITH MY CURRENT INTERNALS, JUST TO GET IT CORRECTLY TUNNED WITH A DSMLINK AND A GOOD SET OF INJECTORS...

THANKS, HOPE TO HEAR MORE COMMENTS

CHEKS

 

[Cheks_Talon_TSi]

Wow, everything has been very useful, thanks.. let me get some points clear, before we continue this thread.

JayRolla: What boost level are you at. I'm guessing that the fuel pump cannot keep up at the higher rpms. If you plan on maxing that turbo out I would go with dsmlink and 1150cc injectors so if you decide to go e85 one day you will be ready.

ANSWER: SINCE I REPLACE MY 14B WITH MY NEW 16G, I AM RUNNING 13-15PSI ALMOST ALL THE WAY IN THE ACCELERATION... IN HEAVY GEARS, AS IN THIRD, AT HIGH RPMS (6200RPMS+) I GET PEAKS OF 18PSI.... BTW, WHEN BOOST PSI BEGIN TO INCREASE OVER 15+PSI, THE A&F RATIO BEGIN TO GET LEANER (OVER 6200RPMS APROX).



Littlebeeper:
do not do what i highlited in red. if your not running lean (which is doubtful) you'll be ok but if your running lean for a long enough time, you'll be rebuilding a motor soon. Wideband is great, but logger wouldhelp tremendously as it will tell you when you knock

A: AS I DESCRIBED IN THE INNITIAL POST, MY CAR IS RUNNING VERY VERY RICH (10.4 ACCORDING TO THE WIDEBAND) ALL THE WAY FROM THE GREEN LIGHT UP TO 6200RPMS+ WHEN THE WIDEBAND READ 13.28. THE CAR IS RUNNING LEANER IN THE RANGE FROM 6200RPMS TO 7000RPMS. I AM SHIFTING AT MORE LESS 6800RPMS BEFORE THE RPM HIT THE FUEL CUT. IT IS LEAN JUST A SECOND (OR LESS) BEFORE I SHIFT TO THE NEXT GEAR.

thilaksharma my suggestion would be
1st get yourself a safc or a dsmlink
im sure dsmlink would be a better investment
tune it up with ## wideband

A: I GUESS I WILL GET A DSMLINK AND A SET OF 660CC OR BIGGEST INYECTORS. I SUPSOSE THIS WILL BE GOOD TO BEGIN TUNNING MY DSM. SINCE I WILL BUY THE DSMLINK I THINK AS BIGGER INYECTORS I CAN BUY WILL BE BETTER. ANYWAY I WILL BE ABLE TO CONTROL THEM WITH THE DSMLINK




2GGSX
- Test it again in the 1/4mi track to see what happen. Hope I didn't run too lean. You stated earlier that at 50 psi base fuel pressure and boost creep (going from 14 to 18 psi) you were already leaning out according to your wideband. In this situation, if you lower your fuel pressure, you are guaranteed to lean out. A lot.

A: MY PLANS BEFORE GOING TO THE TRACK AGAIN WAS TO GET MY BOOST PSI DOWN AND GET THEM CONTROLLED AT MAX OF 14-14.5PSI. AFTER THAT I WILL GET MY FUEL PSI DOWN TO OEM LEVEL (38PSI). I GUESS WITH THIS, I WILL RUN LESS RICH IN ALL THE RANGE BETWEEN 2000-6000RPMS, AND LESS LEAN AFTER 6200RPMS... THOSE YOU GUYS AGREE WITH MY IDEA??? I WILL GET BOOST LEVEL DOWN TO GET AN IDEAL A&f RATIO IN ALL THE LOW RPMS RANGE AND GET FUEL PSI DOWN TO GET AN IDEAL A&F RATIO AT HIGH RPMS...




dsm-onster:
Whoever said that an safc is plenty for a "stockish" 1g has mislead the bunch. MAF overrun is a nasty reality, that only an upgrade can remedy. In this case, no safc alone will cure this guy's problems. . . 18psi and a 14b is maf overrun or atleast fuel cut. . .

A side: I'll bet the top (black plastic portion) of your K&N filter has sunk towards the upper honey comb. . . Mine did. This causes less flow through the metering portion of the 1g maf. Couple this w/ a removed lower honeycomb and you have a maf that will run extremely lean at full tilt. It's just easier to get air through the lower maf than through the metering section at high flow.

Get a logger. . . Any will do. What are your goals?

A: MY HONEYLOWER COMB IS REMOVED. HACKED MAF. I WILL GET A DSMLINK ASAP!!. MY GOALS?? GET THE BEST 1/4MI TIME WITH MY CURRENT INTERNALS, JUST TO GET IT CORRECTLY TUNNED WITH A DSMLINK AND A GOOD SET OF INJECTORS... HOPE TO GET IN THE LOWERS 13'S!!!

THANKS, HOPE TO HEAR MORE COMMENTS ALL SUGGESTIONS WILL BE VERY USEFUL.

CHEKS

 

[90gsx16g]

word good luck

 

[jemsoccer]

So just a side question... theoretically speaking... if you had a completely stock 2g and just dropped 1150cc injectors in there, it wouldn't affect anything? You would just have really really low IDCs? Or would it affect like gas mileage or something. (Just curious, very new to the tuning portion of the dsm upgrades)

 

[2gGSX]

So just a side question... theoretically speaking... if you had a completely stock 2g and just dropped 1150cc injectors in there, it wouldn't affect anything? You would just have really really low IDCs? Or would it affect like gas mileage or something. (Just curious, very new to the tuning portion of the dsm upgrades)

You need DSMLink or something to control the injectors, otherwise your car will not run.

OP: There is no guarantee that you won't lean out even on low boost. The amount of power you can make is directly correlated with how much airflow you have. Decreasing boost and flowing less air will ultimately mean you will make less power, but you won't hurt your car.

 

[jemsoccer]

You need DSMLink or something to control the injectors, otherwise your car will not run.

Well yea, forgot to mention the safc2...

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

Well yea, forgot to mention the safc2...

An SAFC will not control 1150's... the max you can really go with an SAFC would be 650's.

 

[2gGSX]

An SAFC will not control 1150's... the max you can really go with an SAFC would be 650's.

To explain this for posterity (not necessarily you, but in case someone who doesn't know comes across this)...

The SAFC works by "hiding" airflow from the ECU. Therefore, if you hide enough airflow for 1150cc injectors, you would have to pull out (450/1150)-1 = 61% of the airflow. Given that the highest timing map is 2.1 g/rev (or 2.2 there's some conflicting info out there).

Now, assume that you take that big shiny turbo and you end up flowing 50 lbs/min at 6500 RPM, which is more than respectable. Without any airflow adjustments (DSMLink), you would see 50*454/6500 = 3.49 g/rev which puts you on the top timing map, and you would expect to see 16 degrees of timing assuming nothing else is pulling timing.

With the SAFC hiding 61% of your airflow, your engine would only see .39*50 = 19.5 lbs/min, which gives you 19.5*454/6500 = 1.362 g/rev. Your ECU would laugh and try to run 28 degrees of timing, and you'd see some ridiculous knock.