Disengagement issues, pedal feel is all over the place, Spec Stage 2+

[PieEyedPiper]

Here we go again...

Many know the history as I've talked about this a "few" times already. So here's my latest try at figuring out whats up. I'll keep it to the point.

Equipment:
Spec Stage 2+
Spec TOB
Stock resurfaced flywheel supposedly cut to .610
Full SS line from master to slave.
Solid shifter plate bushings.
Skateboard bearing mod.
New clutch fork
113k mile old fulcrum ball

Other info:
Driving the car hard with high RPM shifts helps a lot for some reason, but only temporarily.
The clutch fork sits right in the center of window, if even a little bit towards the driver's side.
Clutch is properly bled and adjusted as per RRE's and Jack 's Transmissions websites/videos instructions.

Problem:
Pedal feel is all over the place.
Huge strain being put on the hydraulic system.
Sometimes can barely push in the clutch, others it's light as a feather.
Pedal feel is temperature sensitive - cold is great, but warm is terrible.


Please do not suggest air in the lines, improper bleeding, clutch pedal adjustment or 2g clutch pedal pump up. I have crossed these off the list 100 times over.

Please feel free to ask questions or make comments though...cause I'm sick of driving like this. I've been doing it for 2 years now and its making me go grey.

I'm confident the problem lies within the transmission itself and is entirely seperate from the hydraulic system.

It would be awesome if a Guru like Jack would stop by but I'll take anything.
Thanks guys.

 

[pneumo]

I haven't read your other threads, but I'll take a crack at it.
Does the clutch pressure feel different when you push the clutch fast or slow?
Did you lube the pivot ball and slave rod where they meet the clutch fork?
Did you remove the restrictor from the slave cylinder, or do anything with it? If it's still in there, you might want to verify that it's not installed backwards.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

When I push it in slow, sometimes it feels as if there is so much friction and resistance that I'd never get it fully depressed. I usually just force it down in that case. Probably not the best idea... but I have to get to work somehow..
When I push it in fast sometimes(rare, but common enough) the pedal is as light as a feather and has terrific engagement/disengagement. Feels like magic, like what a really good clutch setup must feel like. But other times the clutch is just as stubborn as when I push it slowly so I have to really stomp the pedal to ensure I get full disengagement and so that I can easily overcome the resistance encountered from my wacky clutch.
It definitely feels different between pushing it in slow and pushing it in fast.

I have not made a point of consistently lubing the fork/rod but I have tried it once in the past to no avail. I don't think the "sticking" or "friction" I'm experiencing is at that point of contact. It is unlikely that the guy I took my car to for the clutch job lubed the pivot ball/fork contact point. Is that standard? Hmm, I wonder if that contact point is just severly worn? It's a possibility and I'll take as many of those as I can get since my only explanation for all this is "this shit is broke".

I have tried removing the restrictor in the slave on 4 different slaves now in all kinds of orientations. The restrictor appears to have little to no difference no matter what I did with it. Most likely due to my driving style. Since the restrictor really only affects how fast you can "drop" the clutch and that my driving style doesn't see a lot of that action, I never noticed a significant difference in the operation of the clutch.
Having replaced sop many slaves and masters for these years, thinking the hydraulics were the issue, I've experimented much and this scenario was one of many strikes I had against the thought of the hydraulics being the cause for my difficulties.

 

[pneumo]

I wonder if the snout that the TOB rides on has a groove worn in it? Maybe the TOB is catching on a lip? Does your TOB have a metal or plastic sleeve?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

From what I could tell the Spec TOB was an all plastic unit but I'm not 100% sure, it was a few years ago. I too wonder if the sliding motion that the TOB performs is the source of the sticking/friction in the system.
Btw, nice times on that 14b.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

This just started maybe a week ago or so. A co-worker heard it when I was moving my car around the parking lot.
When I depress the clutch pedal I hear ( and can kind of feel) a whirring, maybe even a scraping sound.

What could cause this? It sounds a lot like the sound a bad TOB makes when the pedal is out... but this is when the pedal is IN and it's silent when it is out.

Also I've noticed, over the last week or so, worse shifting quality. It is as if there is now extra friction in the tranny or engine and the revs drop much much quicker when I push in the clutch pedal. This makes it very hard to "catch" the next gear in the right rpm range. I have to be very quick or even hit the gas right before I let the clutch back out to keep the rpms up.

The car makes the sound at idle and is drowned out at higher rpms.
The car's rpms dive harder and faster than normal when changing gears.
The car's rpms do not dive in idle/neutral. No stalling or anything below 750rpm etc.

EDIT:
The problem has escalated since I posted this.
Rpm's DO dip at idle about 150rpms or so - but still not close to dying.
The sound is now quite loud and is loudest on the return stroke of the clutch. It happens if I'm selecting a gear or just letting the clutch in and out in neutral. The noise happens anytime the pedal is depressed and is loudest about in the middle of engagement/disengagement.
The sound is a high pitched spinning/whirring sound, clearly coming form the transmission.

It's also raining today.

 

[twicks69]

Remove the transmission. It sounds like the input shaft (or intermediate shaft) tapered roller bearings are toast.

Hopefully I am wrong, and it is just an overextended clutch pedal affecting the TOB and clutch, but it is more than likely the transmission.

Pull it out and send it in for a rebuild IF the TOB and clutch are fine.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Thanks for posting,

I understand that the only way to know anything for sure is to pull the transmission. It's unfortunate that any shop within 100miles wants $700 to pull and reinstall it though. My car can really only come up off the ground so far with my tools/jacks and stands so I question my own ability to do the removal. Plus where would my step dad park his IS350...and my mother would certainly not entertain the thought of parking her car outside the garage.
/whining

ANYWAYS! I can't seem to wrap my head around why there is a sound at all with the pedal pushed to the floor (or anywhere in between for that matter). It is my understanding that nothing in the tranny is moving when the clutch is in.. so why would the TOB or input shaft bearings be squealing?

Thanks for your help,

 

[twicks69]

when you have the clutch pedal depressed, it is putting the TOB against the pressure plate, disengaging the clutch disks and input shaft. This would cause a squealing if there is a bad TOB. If you have your clutch engaged (even in neutral), your input shaft would still be spinning -- if the squealing is during this period it is likely tapered roller bearings or other damage in the transmission.

So you are saying that if you have the clutch pedal up, in neutral or in gear, it makes no unusual noises, but when you are pushing the clutch pedal, you are hearing squealing noises? If it is when you are pressing the clutch down, in the attempt to disengage the clutch disk, you are looking at clutch/TOB issues.

It is sort of hard to deduce a problem though when you are >1000miles away and I am trying to deduce the problem through a forum.

As well, it takes anywhere from 1-3 hours to remove the transmission and the same to put it back in. With mine, I am usually able to pull it an install it in a total of 2-2.5hours taking breaks. There is no way it should cost $700.00 for labor to remove and install a transmission. $350-400 is much more realistic.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Well maybe luck will be on my side then because you've just confirmed my thoughts. When the clutch is out the tranny is moving. When the clutch is in, only the TOB and PP see action. I only have a bad time when the clutch is in, therefore..

Can a TOB damage the input shaft? I'm just thinking, if I've been driving with a fecked up TOB/PP for oh say 30k miles I wonder what the toll will be.

I completely know what you mean about the diagnosing >1000 miles in distance, through an online forum comment. Really, it's a lot like bench racing. You won't know for sure until you dyno it, err... pull the tranny out. But at least this way I have an idea of how much whp I'm making..damnit, I mean what could be going on inside the transmission.

I much envy the different labor rates available to those not in California. The closest DSM shop to me is FFtec and even they want $600 in labor. And I'll be damned if I let my local "XXXX's Performance Transmissions" touch my car again

 

[twicks69]

Well maybe luck will be on my side then because you've just confirmed my thoughts. When the clutch is out the tranny is moving. When the clutch is in, only the TOB and PP see action. I only have a bad time when the clutch is in, therefore..

Can a TOB damage the input shaft? I'm just thinking, if I've been driving with a fecked up TOB/PP for oh say 30k miles I wonder what the toll will be.

The damage you might see would be excessive wear of the input shaft sleeve that the throwout bearing rides on. These are replaceable (MD716349), but are hard to get off, then the new one would need to be pressed on. It can be done, but it is not too easy.

Otherwise, I would check to see that the input shaft didn't get bent. You can do this by spinning the input shaft on the trans in neutral (use your clutch disk as a tool to spin it) and watch for any wobbling. As well, thoroughly inspect the input shaft splines for wear. They should be square and sharp edged. If they are pointed and show wear, then I would get the transmission rebuild with a fresh input shaft. As well, you can inspect the output shaft the same way for wear or damage. While you are at it, inspect the transfer case input splines (the part where the output shaft from the transmission goes into; for wear. These are just good preventative measures to do.

I would recommend replacing the clutch fork, clutch fork pivot ball, throwout bearing at the same time with NEW ones.

Hopefully this is all you need.

Also, is road race engineering anywhere near you? They are in Santa Fe Springs (South East of L.A.).

 

[PieEyedPiper]

RRE is still out of reach, something like 600 miles away. For now I'm just not going to take the car out of town in case something terrible happens. I know a guy who might be able to help me in his spare time. He used to own a shop here that I frequented. We'll see how that ones turns out. I'll call him this weekend, as I'm quite swamped with school.

Just some additional info. I bled the clutch today and noticed that the clutch fork itself has quite a bit of play, 3/4" in almost every direction - even vertically, like towards the nose of the car and towards the rear end. I also discovered, that while the fork still sits relatively in the middle of the window I can make contact with the window edge with a full stroke of the clutch.
So, for the time being, I adjusted the clutch so I could still shift fine but would make it impossible to contact the edges of the window.

 

[twicks69]

RRE is still out of reach, something like 600 miles away. For now I'm just not going to take the car out of town in case something terrible happens. I know a guy who might be able to help me in his spare time. He used to own a shop here that I frequented. We'll see how that ones turns out. I'll call him this weekend, as I'm quite swamped with school.

Just some additional info. I bled the clutch today and noticed that the clutch fork itself has quite a bit of play, 3/4" in almost every direction - even vertically, like towards the nose of the car and towards the rear end. I also discovered, that while the fork still sits relatively in the middle of the window I can make contact with the window edge with a full stroke of the clutch.
So, for the time being, I adjusted the clutch so I could still shift fine but would make it impossible to contact the edges of the window.

Sounds like the clutch fork is garbage, along with the throwout bearing.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Whirring noise from tranny is more than likely a bad TOB. I have a bad one and when i let OFF the clutch in neutral, it makes a whirring noise sometimes. Sounds sorda like a washing machine i guess. Thats the best way to describe the noise i get.

James

 

[Drifte]

I have similar issues with a spec stage 3. A few things to go over:
TOB: I use oem which is recommended but like I said I seem to have a problem.
Clutch pedal assembly: mine is welded to lessen play, do you have a lot of free play in the pedal?
Greasing the input shaft the tob slides on is important (upon installation not a every other weekend sort of thing).
I have installed a new clutch fork and shimmed the new pivot ball out by placing a washer behind it.
I also have an extended slave rod.
Adjustment of the clutch is kind of tricky, if your doing it by yourself theirs a chance its not done to its best ability. Watch jacks video on youtube? I would assume you have.

Lastly...check the crank end play.

 

[Highwayrun]

From what I could tell the Spec TOB was an all plastic unit but I'm not 100% sure, it was a few years ago. I too wonder if the sliding motion that the TOB performs is the source of the sticking/friction in the system.

Dude, I know your pain! We're getting the EXACT SAME symptoms. From what I've read over weeks of searching, it just might be exclusively a 2G AWD issue.

My previous clutch was a Daiken (sp?) unit. The replacement was fairly recent before I bought the car used, but over the years, the disengagement got so hard that I blew out the master cylinder seals, yet my clutch fork was always dead centre.

When the clutch was changed everything was silky smooth for about two years. Now I'm getting back to old times again.

I saw Jack comment on someone's post a while back that only the 2G AWD transmissions have an extra sleeve over the input shaft. (Sure enough, CAPS backs that up.) Jack mentioned that the sleeve sometimes comes loose from the bell housing and causes problems...but he didn't specify what those problems were. I'll take a guess!

By the way, I assume you also get full disengagement if you temporarily set the pedal to pump up, thereby proving the problem is not from the fork hitting the housing. With the motor off, do you also sometimes hear a clicking noise from inside the tranny as you press the clutch?

I've also tried everything over the years, and then some.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I ended up solving my problem with a new TOB. Mine was trashed, cracked in 3 places, broken pieces falling, and bent in one or two others. I regret not taking pictures!
Anyways, I've swapped the SPEC unit for a Competition Clutch Stage 2+ and the Competition Clutch flywheel. Problem solved!

However, I will note that you do not need to shim the CC setup - even if you want to "play it safe". I've got myself a whole 'nother bucket of worms due to a single washer.

If anyone else is having similar problems and is blowing master/slaves, constantly has air "somehow" getting into the lines I'd wager that your TOB is trashed and now binds as it travels along the input shaft collar.

 

[twicks69]

I ended up solving my problem with a new TOB. Mine was trashed, cracked in 3 places, broken pieces falling, and bent in one or two others. I regret not taking pictures!
Anyways, I've swapped the SPEC unit for a Competition Clutch Stage 2+ and the Competition Clutch flywheel. Problem solved!

However, I will note that you do not need to shim the CC setup - even if you want to "play it safe". I've got myself a whole 'nother bucket of worms due to a single washer.

If anyone else is having similar problems and is blowing master/slaves, constantly has air "somehow" getting into the lines I'd wager that your TOB is trashed and now binds as it travels along the input shaft collar.

As well, it is always a smart move to replace your clutch fork with a new one, and to thoroughly inspect the bellhousing sleeve that the TOB slides on. I have seen several transmissions come in with heavily worn TOB sleeves, causing bearing dragging or alot of slop in the TOB sliding surface. If it is toast, the part number is MD716349; and costs approximately $25.00.

Here is a link to a very good parts supplier for Mitsubishi and Hyundai OEM parts:

https://www.mitsubishiparts.com/oe_parts_catalog.html.

Their product discount is around 25% off list price.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Agreed. Thanks for mentioning that. The fork, ball, bearing, clip and even the axle seals replaced.
The sleeve appeared fine, but we didn't exactly look all that hard.