Creating a monster....

[thekyguy11]

Hales Corners is about 20 minutes southeast of Milwaukee.

Here's a recommendation for you guys though that are still building the 'monster'. Post your problems before you invent the solutions. I cringed when I read that you 'overtightened the clutch' and 'shimmed the fulcrum' knowing that you would get problems, and sure enough it happened. If you get to a stopping point; stop! Then get on the board and get some advice or make a phone call. Hell, if you need someone to point you in the right direction, just stop trying to climb the learning curve with a full-weight dsm on your back, and take the metaphorical escalator built by the hundreds of DSM enthusiasts who have paved the way. Turn this thread into less of a cautionary tale and more into a description of your learning process.

Nicely said indeed. For the most part, this is what we did. However, I dont think you understand exactly what happened with the clutch.

I worked on the clutch issue for almost two weeks! I searched for answers online, called SBR, called Fidanza, started a thread on the dsmlink forums, and i even started a dedicated thread on here. Unfortunately, I found that people have a whole range of different solutions for that problem, and it was very difficult to determine which one was considered doing it "right". I'm not sure where you read that we over tightened the clutch. I tightened it to spec, and after I installed the tranny, discovered that it wasnt tight enough (the pp wasnt butted against the flywheel completely). I read that someone else had the same problem and remedied it by tightening his pp beyond spec, as that is what was needed in both his and my case.

As for the shim, I believe that the thrust bearing damage must have already begun by this point (from over-adjusting the travel of the master cylinder actuating rod) because when I checked the spacing of the release arm in the hole in the tranny, it was off center. One of my sources of information stated that an off center release arm calls for a shim behind the fulcrum to compensate for a worn fulcrum and release arm. What I didnt realize is that it was off center because the thrust bearing was already on its way out the door by this point.

I agree with your philosophy completely. I understand we made mistakes. As of right now, I believe we built the entire engine correctly, and the clutch issue quickly destroyed it in a nice, expensive, chain reaction sequence. I appreciate the advice, but just know that we pretty much were carrying out this build with that philosophy already in mind.

 

[krisj144]

Understood. I didn't mean to sound condescending at all. It sounds like you guys have a good thought process and are certainly learning from past mistakes.

I'll admit, the biggest strength of having the benefit of input from other forum members is also its biggest downfall. Often, you'll get too much input and it becomes nearly impossible to discern the facts or proper methods from the peanut gallery suggestions enthusiastically offered from guys who perhaps genuinely want to help, but are a bit misguided in their efforts. I suppose that's precisely why this forum has a rating system for posts. It helps to distinguish the knowledgable from the ignorant (not meant as a pejorative term here guys) and gives credible weight to those with the esteem of their peers.

Keep up the good work fellas! We're here to help you out and are all eager to hear more of your exploits

 

[thekyguy11]

Here's a lil pic to hold everyone over till we get some more progress. This pic was taken a while ago after I spilled a little gas, and lit it on fire (on purpose) while installing the fuel pump.

(I've just decided to make it my sig!)

 

[thekyguy11]

Sooo...school has been pretty intense for me, making it difficult to make progress. Although, somehow I have been able to completely reassemble the engine, making a few minor improvements (repaired a few stripped threads, removed a broken bolt, tighter ring end gaps, better tools).

Last night, I torqued the pressure plate to the flywheel to 16 ft/lb as the chiltons instructs. I noticed the PP was NOT mated to the flywheel entirely. So, I increased the torque 5 lbs at a time until it completely mated all the way around (25 ft/lbs). After reattaching the transmission to the freshly rebuilt engine, i checked the alignment of the release arm in the hole in the tranny. To my surprise, it still called for that one shim that I installed before. Today I will prime the oil pump, establish oil pressure, and check if the clutch is disengaging normally. If all checks out ok, I'll hook up everything else. Its been going a little slower since I've been going at it alone this time around.

Good news is, I recorded the entire build of the engine and I'm about half way done editing it. Who wants to host it when its done???

(Where did my sweet sig go?)

 

[XtReMeToYz]

Sooo...school has been pretty intense for me, making it difficult to make progress. Although, somehow I have been able to completely reassemble the engine, making a few minor improvements (repaired a few stripped threads, removed a broken bolt, tighter ring end gaps, better tools).

Last night, I torqued the pressure plate to the flywheel to 16 ft/lb as the chiltons instructs. I noticed the PP was NOT mated to the flywheel entirely. So, I increased the torque 5 lbs at a time until it completely mated all the way around (25 ft/lbs). After reattaching the transmission to the freshly rebuilt engine, i checked the alignment of the release arm in the hole in the tranny. To my surprise, it still called for that one shim that I installed before. Today I will prime the oil pump, establish oil pressure, and check if the clutch is disengaging normally. If all checks out ok, I'll hook up everything else. Its been going a little slower since I've been going at it alone this time around.

Good news is, I recorded the entire build of the engine and I'm about half way done editing it. Who wants to host it when its done???

(Where did my sweet sig go?)

I don't feel like reading through the thread again, but from what I remember it crankwalked right?

If so, my newly built stroker did the same thing and I also suspect clutch issues. However, what I plan to do before getting it running asides from proper clutch adjustmet is also dropping the oil pan and making sure their is thrust clearance with the clutch disengaged. It's just an extra step of paranoia for me since I don't wanna do it a 3rd time!

 

[SethA]

I don't feel like reading through the thread again, but from what I remember it crankwalked right?

If so, my newly built stroker did the same thing and I also suspect clutch issues. However, what I plan to do before getting it running asides from proper clutch adjustmet is also dropping the oil pan and making sure their is thrust clearance with the clutch disengaged. It's just an extra step of paranoia for me since I don't wanna do it a 3rd time!

That sounds like a very good idea.

Seth

 

[thekyguy11]

yea, it was kinda crankwalk, destroyed the thrust bearing on the side that the clutch would be pushing from, so it must've been the clutch.

Are you just checking for thrust movement when the clutch is released? Or what exactly are you checking for? I measured thrust with a dial indicator when the crank was installed, so couldnt I check for issues by using the dial indicator again while engaging/disengaging the clutch?

 

[SethA]

The more I think about this I am not sure what you could check to ensure the bearing isn't getting overloaded. The pressure plate is going to smash the crank against the thrust bearing when the clutch is depressed to some extent even if all is good.

I guess I would check that the when the clutch petal is out make sure the crank can move toward flywheel away from the thrust bearing. Make sure the thrust bearing is not loaded all the time. You might be able to do this with an indicator but I would take the time to drop the pan and check to make sure a gap exists with a feeler gage.

If the crank can't "flop back and forth" something is wrong.

Seth

 

[BGGSTin]

I'd definitely have a tuning device higher on the list. I wouldn't even consider tuning with a GM MAFT with what you're looking to put together. DSM Link at the least, anything above that is good. I'd get that ASAP, you can put an endless amount of money in your car, it doesn't matter if it's not tuned with the correct program/people because it will just run like poo. Get some sort of EMS, DSM Link or standalone.

 

[thekyguy11]

whoa buddy, I dont know where you've been, but we've got dsmlink and gm maft. Im not one to flame, but you really shoulda read a little deeper into the thread.

 

[nuggets]

Its been going a little slower since I've been going at it alone this time around.

Hey now, if I didn't get sick I would've been helping you everytime you worked on it!

 

[XtReMeToYz]

The more I think about this I am not sure what you could check to ensure the bearing isn't getting overloaded. The pressure plate is going to smash the crank against the thrust bearing when the clutch is depressed to some extent even if all is good.

I guess I would check that the when the clutch petal is out make sure the crank can move toward flywheel away from the thrust bearing. Make sure the thrust bearing is not loaded all the time. You might be able to do this with an indicator but I would take the time to drop the pan and check to make sure a gap exists with a feeler gage.

If the crank can't "flop back and forth" something is wrong.

Seth

Same basic concept, worded differently. The thrust play will be checked before the engine even goes back in, that's not a problem. I have a magnetic dial that I can sit on the edge of the block when I measure that.

When the engine IS in the car, the oil pan is getting removed and I'm making sure there is some clearance between the crank thrust surface and the surface of the block. If not, that would definitely indicate some sort of problem, and probably the culprit for my 4g64 that lasted 1000 miles. I still thouroughly believe that built correctly an engine won't crankwalk., especially a 4g64 which has never been known to walk.

Shawn

 

[SethA]

Same basic concept, worded differently. The thrust play will be checked before the engine even goes back in, that's not a problem. I have a magnetic dial that I can sit on the edge of the block when I measure that.

When the engine IS in the car, the oil pan is getting removed and I'm making sure there is some clearance between the crank thrust surface and the surface of the block. If not, that would definitely indicate some sort of problem, and probably the culprit for my 4g64 that lasted 1000 miles. I still thouroughly believe that built correctly an engine won't crankwalk., especially a 4g64 which has never been known to walk.

Shawn

Cool. I just misinterpreted your first post (clutch disengaged vs engaged).

Seth

 

[thekyguy11]

I just finished editing the video... and all I can say is...damn! That took a long time, but I think it was worth it. Lets see what you guys think as soon as I get it on here. Should I start a new thread just for the video?

(Thanks to KneeDragger for hosting)

 

[anubis]

Created a new thread for the video

so are you going to link to it or make us find it on our own?

 

[thekyguy11]

got moved to http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1686061#post1686061

sorry mods

 

[thekyguy11]

Im actually having a bunch of trouble getting the clutch hydrolics not to preload the PP when the clutch is all the way out (engaged). I am assuming this is avoidable. Im trying to determine if maybe the master cylinder is shot or something. If I can get this problem solved than everything is ready to be fired up again for the first time on the new rebuild.

 

[SethA]

I am glad you checked. The way the pressure plate bolts had to be over torqued to pull it up must be related. With the line disconnected from the clutch slave cylinder do you still have the binding (could it be a mechanical issue rather than a hydraulic one)? Is the clutch petal play when it is out within spec?

I wish I could be more help. Maybe a DSM guru will chime in.

Cool video by the way.

Seth

 

[avw0516]

Wow, I just spent half an hour reading this thread and what you guys did is absolutely amazing. I cant believe that I haven't read this before. My friends and I have been wanting to do something similiar to what you guys did for a while, maybe I can force them to read this . Great work on the car, amazing persistance, and great video. I can't say how envious I am of you guys right now .
-Andrew

 

[thekyguy11]

Thanks avw0516, its been a lot of work, but a LOT of fun.

So, I installed a new clutch master cylinder and everything seems to be working fine. I marked the transmission where the release arm sits when its just butted against the PP. After I hooked up the hydrolics and bled the system, it was allowing it to not preload the PP with the clutch all the way out. It's also disengaging normally again.

I turned the car over to build oil pressure (with the ignition unplugged), when I reconnected the ignition...that sucker did THE LOUDEST backfire I have ever heard . I forgot it was pumping gas in that whole time. After that, she fired RIGHT up, ran smooth and relatively quiet (lifters still need to setup) and warmed up to normal operating temp. Even idled fine (which it never did)!!!!!!!! Now I need to get my wideband fixed before we take her for a spin and break in that fresh motor.

 

[mig233]

great work guys, i just saw the video. You've got some nasty parts and some really good knowledge of what you are doing. I'm glad you didn't listen to the dumbasses that were trying to hold you back, because they don't have the balls to get up and do what you did. One question though, how the hell did you just drop the timing belt on in a second or two. The timing and tensioner are a bi*** to get right. I know from experience!

 

[thekyguy11]

, well... If you notice in the video, I dont actually get it on right in the first shot. Everything is correct except the idler pulley on the right side. After I turned the camera off I pulled the belt off the intake cam just enough to slip it on that pulley correctly. It helps to wait till the belt is on before installing the second bolt in the auto-tensioner. Also, I believe I ended up re-doing it AGAIN because the tensioner setting (blue pulley) was a little too loose and the auto-tensioner rod came out too far. I dont have any special mitsubishi tools, I just kinda guess and check till the rod in the auto-tensioner comes out the correct amount. I've done timing belts (especially on the 4g63) MANY times.

 

[thekyguy11]

While I'm waiting to get my LM-1 back from innovate (for some repairs) I've come up with the perfect solution for this car. I ordered a LC-1 wideband setup which will be permanently mounted in the vehicle. It has TWO analog outputs, one will be hooked up to the autometer cobalt AFR gauge which is already in the car, and the other will be hooked up to either the old MDP wires, or the old second O2 sensor wires. Either way I will then be able to monitor AFR with the gauge, and/or log it through dsmlink!!!

 

[Ryan95tsiAWD]

My wife and I just got finished rebuilding her Eclipse...well earlier this year and had the same thing happen. We did not have the clutch adjusted right and it ate the thrust bearing/crank. We drove it for about 1000 miles then started hearing the "woodpecker" noise. We STILL havnt replaced the crank, just put new bearing in and adjust the clutch "properly". The guy who helped us build this car up has a very nice auto awd 95 eclipse and has built many motors, but never messed with 5 speeds, so it was a learning exp for all of us. When we checked the crank movement it was like 65 thousandths!!! It is still out of spec but not to the point of eating the crank sensor and has not gotten any worse since we replace the bearing and adjusted the clutch.

"If we had only known" sums up our build.

It sounds like you guys have it all worked out now, so maybe there is hope for the "7 bolt that could".

 

[XakEp]

Glad to see you guys have finally made some real progress on it. Keep it up!