Creating a monster....

[nuggets]

Ahh yes, I give you guys the most respect on this board. I started reading this thread and you (nuggets) had no idea what you were talking about it seemed. Now, you'ved built a really nice and looks to be a very well put together car. I saw the bashing, the stupid remarks people tend to say to put you down, but you get past it, don't give up and you end up with a product like yours.

GOOD JOB!

I wanna see some videos of it idling.

i love it. yes it's true i really didn't know much about DSM's whatsoever or.. cars. I had just bought my talon early last summer and it's my first car.. also my first car i ever worked on.. soooo i had about... i dunno 4-5 months of knowledge under my belt. i really didn't know too much or how it completely worked.. i was just getting the hang of the terminology and what exactly went into an engine. my friend kyle was originally the one who took up this project and since we had already done a head rebuild on my talon he asked me to help him with the build. since then we BOTH have learned a shitload about DSM's and it all shows with this car. and since then I have learned a shitload about cars in general compared to this time last year that is...



screw: this isn't a group build or anything, its a friend of our's car. he asked us to take on the project and of course we reluctantly accepted so we decided on a price and started researching. the rest of the story you all know. There's three of us who have dedicated a lot of time to this project, Kyle, Alex (me), and TJ who doesn't have a tuners account or anything so he's not on here. We'll get some pics of us and the car when it's all done and running.. this project will soon be a running/rolling/driving vehicle !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Super4x4Duty]

What kinda muffler are you running?

 

[nuggets]

well Bernie, Thermal R&D of course


btw im FINALLY shipping out ur muffler today, sorry again for the wait.





update: todays the day we might have it running. we took it for a ride around the block yesterday but the clutch wasnt engaging all the way (need to adjust pedal again) and it still wont idle even after the boost leak was fixed, but we have some ideas of what it might be. Also the boys on the DSMLINK forums are helping us out ALOT.



so keep your pants on, hopefully this week, videos/pictures/whatever of it running/driving i dont even know.. launching? just playin

 

[Super4x4Duty]

P.S great work guys looks awesome. let me know when I can come and check it out.hehe wheres the WI love at?

Yeah, what he said. I wanna come over and check it out too!

 

[talondude4]

I would like to say good job man. After all that bashing I would have probably quit myself. . Seems were you did this and I sat and read this thread for about an half hour, I am thinking of doing up my car. . I'm going down a differant road, I'm keeping my automatic transmission. Has anyone built a "monster" auto talon? If so could I have a link to read. (thanks to who ever can put some on here).

OK now back to the subject, You guys did a very nice job putting this car together. You guys celebrate yet?

OK now go get some video of that car in action.

 

[thekyguy11]

I am the head mechanic of the project covered in the "Creating a Monster" thread. Car runs and drives almost beautifully. Cylinder #1 was making a little noise in the head, and the compression test revealed #1 to be 20lbs short of the other three. I removed the head and brought it in to our machine shop Extreme Speed. He is going to let us know tomorrow whether it is a bent valve or two, or a bad lifter or two. ANYWAYS, we are faced with a decision right now, and this is the time to address it...

Our goal for this car is 450-500hp at the wheels (if it takes race gas, that's fine). Here is a quick review of the mods.

1996 Talon Tsi
JE Pistons
Eagle Rods
Crower 3/4 Race cams with crower springs & Titanium retainers
PTE GT3255e turbo
Alien Auto equal length manifold
SBR stainless recirc O2 housing
3in DP w/ cat elim
3in Thermal catback
Extreme Intercoolers large FMIC and piping
GM MAFT setup
DSM Link
FIC 950cc injectors
AFPR
Walboro 255LPH HP (rewire kit)

we currently have a 2G head with a 5 angle, and a nice P&P job done with 2G port and gasket matched intake manifold.

Here is the question.....

Will we be able to reach our hp goal with this head/intake manifold combo (with a 1G TB port matched to the IM)????? Or will the 2G IM (with enlarged runners at the end and port matched perfectly to the head) be too restrictive to reach our horsepower goals?????

I dont know if a 1G head is in the budget. I know we could pick one up cheap, but it would need all the machine work and parts swapped over. Obviously this would be the better choice, but if the 2G IM and head combo (with the machine work already done) will allow the engine to reach 450-500 horsepower, we'll keep it that way.

 

[nuggets]

Has anyone built a "monster" auto talon?

Oh yea, there's someone running a 9 second auto talon on here. He's quite popular amongst this forum so I'm sure someone knows his name and the car he's driving.

We drove it around yesterday and took it to the Kyguy's dad's house where we used the impact gun to tighten down some things and do a quick compression test.

The results were... disappointing.

120/140/140/140

We believe that it is possible a valve might be bent and might be not closing all the way because there is a definitive NOISE that can be heard from the #1 cylinder area.

SO! While I was at work Kyle decided to just rip the head off in an hour and take it to our machinist to get it checked out. He's going to take a look at it tommorow and we should know then if this problem is caused from the head. If not, well.. then.. piston ring?

but, it was still driveable. the BOV sounds.. sick. the turbo starts spooling arouind 2600-2700 rpms... and it just.. is tight.
I'll update tommorow once we find out what the problem is and throw the head back on. If the problem is fixed in the head we will have it back up and running tommorow night.


-Alex

 

[1SloColt]

I think you'll be able to reach your goal of 450whp no problem with that head/intake/TB combination as long as you run race gas with a lot of boost and a good tune.

 

[nuggets]

to me this sounds like a reasonable way to go then. further down the line we could always swap parts/heads with a 1g built one.

 

[turbo90gsx]

An easy way to have found out if it was either a ring problem, or something else is to just pour a little motor through the spark plug hole, then put the gauge back on and see if the compression goes up. If it does then you know you have a ring problem, if not then you know its somewhere up top. Keep up the work man, you guys have done a good job

 

[nuggets]

just pour a little motor through the spark plug hole

.. that sounds just SILLY



but yea you're right oil in the hole, i guess we didn't think of trying that out b4 we pulled it !

 

[thekyguy11]

yea, due to our current financial situation, I think this setup will have to do. We'll upgrade the head/IM/TB combo as soon as we've got a new shep tranny strapped to this thing.

 

[nuggets]

alright, you guys have been awaiting an update so here you have it. this past week has been annoying, the car decided to start having some electrical trouble. We test everything over and over, more testing, taking all day/night.. finally we decided to try a brand new cam angle sensor... and finally...the ignition starts working normally again. So thinking this things gonna be golden, we slap her back together, put the bumper on, headlights, start it up.. it idles. it idles shitty, but its a start. we got it to somewhat of a rough tune but it was running decent. so.. kyle drives around with the owner of the car for about 15 minutes... and on our way to someplace... the oil pump seizes... OH yea. How? No idea as of yet, Kyle's gonna tear off the oil pump while im at work tommorow and.... yea. The owner of the car, needless to say, wasn't very excited at the fact he might be spending more money on a new pump and possibly some fresh valves. Or god only knows something worse than this.



So, as of right now this project is on it's last string. The owner is gettign sick of it not working, not getting done, we've worked on this thing for MONTHS.. finally get to drive it normally without any weird noises/errors, only to have the oil pump sieze. I guess I'll let everyone know what happens once kyle rips off the pump. Brand new pump from Slowboy... 19.9 miles on the car.

 

[szewczyd]

If he wants to sell the car let me know.

 

[thekyguy11]

OK. After removing the valve cover, I determined there are at least two bent valves. Then I drained the oil and there was a small amount of metal in it, and when I opened up the oil filter, I found a good amount of metal in there too.

SOOOOO...Here is the game plan so far...

Engine is being removed. The block is being stripped down to bare block and brought to the machine shop to be cleaned and have any metal removed from all oil passages/galleries. I have not opened the engine yet, so I don't know the condition of the crank, but I'm guessing it will need to be turned down a little. The engine will be reassembled using brand new bearings and oil pump.

As for the head, all bent valves will be replaced and reground with the matching 5-angle like the rest of the valves. All new "revised" lifters will be replacing the ones in there with xx amount of miles.

Obviously I will be using all new gaskets and a new timing belt. Because I am the builder of the engine I am taking financial responsibility for the parts and machine work (except the lifters).

Does anyone recommend we do anything else while the engine is torn apart?

 

[LaN-]

ouch how much did that set you back

 

[SpoOLxExO]

The results were... disappointing.

120/140/140/140

We believe that it is possible a valve might be bent and might be not closing all the way because there is a definitive NOISE that can be heard from the #1 cylinder area.


-Alex

What compression ratio do those J&E's contribute to? Because 140 is low even with 7.0:1 pistons.

Sounds like you guys 500WHP goal is being interrupted by getting the engine up to the specs that it should be at.

 

[nuggets]

ouch how much did that set you back

Kyle told me today it'll be around $400 in parts alone so... whatev. He also said he was to take the financial responsibility of the project in the beginning, so he will be replacing/fixing whats necessary with his own funds.


We pulled the engine already, and basically we just have to tear it apart and rebuild again.

Looks like we're not giving up yet!!!!

-Alex



As for the compression issue spool, we'll look into it.


-10:00pm - Update
Kyle reports...

"After tearing the block down to bare bones, I discovered the thrust bearing was absolutly anhialated. It was as if the crank was being forced against the thrust bearing from the clutch side of the engine, causing it to get chewed into oblivion!!!! I have aboslutely NO CLUE what might have caused this when the engine only has 19.9 rolling miles. Before the car had any miles on it, and after the engine had been run a few times, I pulled the oil pan and inspected the rod to side clearence, as well as thrust movement. Unfortuneately I did not know to check these two things till after the engine was installed in the car, when I should have done it during the short block assembly. Lesson learned...HOWEVER...when I checked the clearences, they were fine.

Here is what I concluded...
The thrust bearing got destroyed for whatever reason. Metal circulated through the oil pump till it completely ceased the pump. At that point the pump stopped the timing belt, shredding it from the force of the crank still spinning, then bending the valves from the cams stopping while the crank kept spinning.

SO, what I want to know is...what the hell caused the engine to eat that bearing like that?" -Kyle

 

[SpoOLxExO]

How did you check the clearences? What brand of feelers guages and micrometer did you use?

Cause if it was a craftsmen unit, you'll find that its missing alot of important increments compared to a good snap-on or military spec unit.

 

[SethA]

-10:00pm - Update
Kyle reports...

"After tearing the block down to bare bones, I discovered the thrust bearing was absolutly anhialated. It was as if the crank was being forced against the thrust bearing from the clutch side of the engine, causing it to get chewed into oblivion!!!! I have aboslutely NO CLUE what might have caused this when the engine only has 19.9 rolling miles. Before the car had any miles on it, and after the engine had been run a few times, I pulled the oil pan and inspected the rod to side clearence, as well as thrust movement. Unfortuneately I did not know to check these two things till after the engine was installed in the car, when I should have done it during the short block assembly. Lesson learned...HOWEVER...when I checked the clearences, they were fine.

Here is what I concluded...
The thrust bearing got destroyed for whatever reason. Metal circulated through the oil pump till it completely ceased the pump. At that point the pump stopped the timing belt, shredding it from the force of the crank still spinning, then bending the valves from the cams stopping while the crank kept spinning.

SO, what I want to know is...what the hell caused the engine to eat that bearing like that?" -Kyle

My first thought is that this is related to the clutch problems you were having. I wonder if that could have been putting abnormal loads on the thrust brearing?

Seth

 

[Hammer_Gaidin]

My first thought is that this is related to the clutch problems you were having. I wonder if that could have been putting abnormal loads on the thrust brearing?

Seth

I'd think so too. Might want to be sure that the clutch problem is 100% clear before you replace the bearings so that this doesn't happen again.

 

[thekyguy11]

well, the interesting thing about the clutch issue is that all I did to fix it was tighten the bolts on the pressure plate (because apparently factory specs arent tight enough) and i shimmed out the fulcrum about 1mm. This time when I reassmble, it will be interesting to see if the shim is needed, since it might have just needed the shim cuz the thrust bearing was so gone on that side.

As we were running the engine for the first 10 or so times, the owner (who was turning the key) held the clutch to the floor the entire time. I didnt know this at the time, but that being the case, is that enough force to destroy a thrust bearing?

Also, along with new bearings and oil pump, the crank we were using was destroyed so we are having another one machined and balanced right now. I gave the go ahead to re hone the cylinders and I ordered new piston rings. Basically we are starting from scratch again with a LOT more knowledge, and a lot less money!!!

 

[weith1111]

I can't imagine the thrust bearing losing it from you guys just trying to start the car a few times, but...I'd still recommend unhooking the clutch switch, to avoid future problems:

Free mod #14

Unplug Clutch Switch
Under the dash on the clutch pedal assembly, there is a switch that will only allow the car to be turned on if the clutch is pushed in. Just unplug this so that you can start the car without touching the clutch, it's better for the thrust bearing. The plug is on the front side of the clutch pedal assembly, so that it is only pressed when the clutch is all the way in.

 

[Hammer_Gaidin]

I would avoid shimming anything. Should work the way it's designed...

 

[thekyguy11]

weith1111- Good thinking, I'll do that for sure

Hammer_Gaidin- I read that a shim is necessary behind the fulcrum if the release arm is not centered in the hole of the tranny. From that source they say that the release arm and fulcrum will wear. When I tested if it needed to be shimmed, I am sure the destroyed thrust bearing allowed the crank to move enough that it appeared to need the shim. I will double check this when I assemble this time, before the engine even goes into the car. And I will most likely remove the shim.

I think that in my quest to get the clutch to disengage, I read that the pedal should be adjusted all the way out. I did adjust it pretty far, although not all the way. I knew it didnt feel right when I pushed the pedal to the floor, and I bet that it significantly preloading the clutch when I had it adjusted that far out.

IF ONLY I WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT TIGHTENING THE PRESSURE PLATE BOLTS TO FACTORY SPEC WASNT ENOUGH, CAUSING ME HOURS OF GRIEF, FORCING ME TO DO BAD ADJUSTMENTS, AND ULTIMATELY DESTROYING THE ENTIRE ENGINE!!!!!!!!

Its ok, all will be well in a few weeks, and a few hundred dollars later