Considering a turbo upgrade from stock, any ideas?

[Aznspice27]

I was thinking about upgrading my stock tiny turbo to either a evo 3 16g or a 50 trim bullseye. Im looking for around 300-400 whp. Now i have a FP 4" intake im about to purchase an APexi N1 exhaust with the N1 downpipe. Punishment racing FMIC, ACT 2600 clutch kit w/ flywheel. I have to start on my fuel system but what turbo would you recommend? I plan on purchasing a 6 bolt motor and really tweak it out over the winter but i need something now, any suggestions?

 

[Sinclair159]

Check out the 20 some odd page on the Holsets... The HX-35 seems to be a preety good turbo for our cars... preety cheap also, gives you some headroom for your fuel needs...

 

[kahl23]

I feel like a broken record here, but what are your goals? There should be a template for turbo recommendation threads, something like desired spool, power, and cost, just to give us an idea. The 50 trim and Evo3 are two pretty different turbos. I think that the EvoIII usually maxes out at around or just under 40lb/min (though I'm sure some people have been able to get more out of it), while the 50trim will flow up to 49ish lb/min. The 16G will also spool more quickly than the 50 trim. One thing you need to bear in mind is that you're really hampering yourself by not getting fuel mods first. I wouldn't run either of these turbos over 15ish psi with a stock fuel system and no way to tune. An HX-35 would be even more useless on a stock fuel system as well. So, I would say you need to tell us more about what your goals and expectations are before we can give you a good suggestion on what a good turbo for you is.

Also, why do you want to go 6-bolt if your 7bolt hasn't died yet? They really are stronger motors than a lot of people give them credit for.

 

[Aznspice27]

ok fuel wise i plan on going for 750 cc injectors or greater and with the 255lph fuel pump im going to purchase the afpr fuel kit from extremepsi (I've become quite fond with their packaged deals) im pretty new to the whole turbo specs world but i want to run it for street use. what do ya think?

 

[Aznspice27]

you know i was told the samething about 7bolts.... they said why purchase a 6bolt when with the same money you can just build your 7bolt... i just might stick to that... upgrade the pistons rod crank bore the block rebuild the head....

 

[kahl23]

Ok, well if you are running a stock intake manifold and cams, then your power band is going to have a pretty definite ceiling and there's no point revving over the stock redline. Even on our old setup, basically an EvoII 16g, HKS 264/272 cams, 1g intake manifold and a ported 1g head, we didn't make that much power after 6500 rpm. What that means is that you'd want a fairly fast spooling turbo to take advantage of the fact that the stock components were engineered to give good low end torque and fast spool at the expense of top end power. Think of it this way, if you have a turbo that spools at 4500 rpm and your cams and intake manifold start to choke flow at 7000 rpm, what's the fun in a 2500rpm power band?

I would personally suggest the 16G. They're plentiful, cheap new and cheaper used, and damn near bulletproof. On a 2.0 with stock cams and a free-flowing exhaust like you have you should see 20psi by around 3500-3600 rpm, but it could spool sooner or later, depending on tuning, how large your FMIC is, etc. You can go larger, and it might be a smart thing to do if you have big plans for this car, but if you want a fun DD with a great mid-range a 16g is hard to beat for tq production, power production, ease of install, reliability, and cost. If you're self tuning it's also a great turbo to use to get used to whatever tuning software you use, as it flows enough to be fun but not enough so that the tune is on a razor's edge. That isn't to say, however, that you can't blow your motor with it if you aren't careful.

Speaking of tuning, what software do you plan to use? Are you tuning yourself, paying someone, or using a plug 'n play like Keydriver? Those injectors are very well sized for a 16g IMHO, but you definitely need some compensation when you use them or else your car will barely run if it runs at all.

 

[Aznspice27]

the people at extremepsi told me to go with the 50 trim that it would be better for my goals. I wanna put down close to 350-400 whp. I've ordered a ton of parts and im waiting to put everything in at once for example the FMIC, turbo, exhaust manifold etc etc

 

[Aznspice27]

wow, thank you so much kahl23 you opened my eyes and made my decision so much easier. i do have big plans but not until winter .... i plan on purchasing an eprom ecu and get ecmlink v3 im also going to purchase before summer a dnp exhaust manifold i already purchased the exhaust system Intake FMIC and clutch kit... all waiting for delivery... now im going to work on the feul system and start getting all the electronics such as wideband boost controller, gauges etc.

i was considering purchasing some cams and cam gears but i might wait until i rebuild the whole motor over winter

 

[kahl23]

I have a DNP and honestly I've really not been all that impressed with it. At the time we got it there was nothing like the FP race manifold, and it does flow better than stock, but there are some drawbacks. First it throws out a lot more heat because there are no heat shields. Second, it attracts some unwanted attention, and third I really feel like its design leaves a lot to be desired, especially with the collector area. We'll probably run it until it breaks, and if it doesn't then we'll just keep it because it's worked so far, but if I were to do it again I would get either a FP race mani or an Evo III manifold or even just port out the 2g mani.

Good choice with the DSMLink, we use it and love it, just remember you need to install that either before or at the same time as your fuel mods. Also, with cams, some cam companies are generally more on spec than others, do some research and you can see what i mean, but typically speaking the companies with higher quality really don't need cam gears, while other alternatives would benefit a lot from them.

For the record, we made 347awhp/357tq on pump and 374/389 on race, but we had more headwork done than you. A 50trim will definitely get you to your goals with your motor as it's planned out and would probably spool before 4k. Sorry I wrote this entire post as an edit, I posted only to see you posted right before me.

 

[Aznspice27]

so what exhaust manifold do you suggest ### the stock one i have has got to go... its rusted and grimey looking.... which would hold the evo3 turbo? should i get the evo3 o2housing with it? port them both>?


i plan on doing a stage 3 head work and putting in all new lifter spring rockers all that good stuff....

 

[Aznspice27]

what size injectors do you think i should purchase? i see that before i get the turbo i have to save up and find an eprom ecu and get ecm link plus all the fuel upgrades hopefully this tiny turbo can hold up till then

 

[kahl23]

People seem to really like the FP race manifold. I personally have no experience with it and I don't think I've ever seen back to back dyno testing with it, but then again I never really looked. I would do some research and see what's around, I think the manifolds you should look at are Slowboy's cast manifold, the FP mani, and the EvoIII mani, or like I said port your stock manifold. You complain about rust but I would strongly suggest running heat shields if you can, which cover the manifold, they keep more heat in the exhaust gasses (good), less in the engine bay (also good) and give your bay a nice sleeper look which is a personal taste thing.

 

[kahl23]

I would stay away from the EvoIII O2 if you already bought a DP, as it routes it right into the Tcase. You can muscle it and make it work, but it will beat the crap outta your flex section. Either port the stocker or get a megan/ebay one. RRE makes a DP that works with it, I believe it is 2.5".

The 750s will flat out not run right on your stock ecu, so you can either wait and do everything at once or get the fuel upgrades and an interim tuning solution like an AFC. I really don't like that as the AFC cannot effectively compensate for 750s as they are too large.

 

[the_mork]

Something else to think about being FWD, I have an e3 16g running at 19psi through an automatic transmission (more drivetrain loss) and I have a hard time keeping any traction in first and second even from a roll with decent tires. I don't have any traction mods but I'm just giving you an idea of what is going on. I do feel like my top end is a little restricted but I would guess that that is from my stock exhaust more than anything else.

For a straight out street turbo I think that it is hard to beat a 16g, it has the potential to put down more than you can really use anywhere but the track and quick enough spool that I see positive pressure just from adjusting my speed in town by just a few mph.

 

[kahl23]

I just realized I never really answered your injector question. 750ccs I think are a good sized injector, they will support both the 50trim and the 16g, but like I said above require some form of tuning device.

 

[kottyking]

If your gonna get dsm link, the sky is the limit with fuel injectors.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

you know i was told the samething about 7bolts.... they said why purchase a 6bolt when with the same money you can just build your 7bolt... i just might stick to that... upgrade the pistons rod crank bore the block rebuild the head....

I applause to your actions. A built 7-bolt is better than a 6-bolt even if the 6-bolt is also.

 

[Aznspice27]

on extreme psi i seen an afpr package that comes with the apexi neo device will this be suitable enough until the i can really setup the dsmlink?

 

[Aznspice27]

im looking at it now... it comes with 750 injectors fuel pump apexi neo for about $650

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

im looking at it now... it comes with 750 injectors fuel pump apexi neo for about $650

For that same price you could almost buy link. Im gonna tell you from experience that its better to wait than to rush.

 

[Aznspice27]

now i cant use my stock ecu correct i have to find a 95 eprom?

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

now i cant use my stock ecu correct i have to find a 95 eprom?

Yes, just look for a 2g eprom. Some 96 cars have them too. Why not look in the classifieds for one(dsmlink or ecu).

 

[the_mork]

From everything I have ever heard link is all that and a bag of chips.

But really if you are going to go with an interim tuning solution skip the AFC and just pick up an evo8 ecu. At that point you can handle just about any injector (1600+cc on e85) and have control over timing and fuel maps plus all sorts of cool options like 2step, no lift to shift, launch control, alternate maps, ecu based boost control, speed density, etc. IMO the work that has been done with an evo8 ecu provides just as many options as ECMlink except that it has a slightly higher learning curve. All that for $200. Then if you get good with ecuflash (which doesn't take much) you can skip $500 worth of expense and have a system with AFAIK every every option that ECMlink has.

 

[the_mork]

Yes, just look for a 2g eprom. Some 96 cars have them too. Why not look in the classifieds for one(dsmlink or ecu).

Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market is also a good source, I've picked one up for as low as $80 but that isn't common.

 

[92AWDHX40]

The evo iii is a great manifold, like the op said, its great because you can use heatshields, its also thick, to keep heat in. go with link great, and do get the fuel you can, because you will never have to buy more injectos later, i learned the hard way. I was looking at the fp, but im going to get a evo iii manifold soon.