IntellectCorner
Probationary Member
- 10
- 3
- May 6, 2023
-
Harrisonburg,
Virginia
So I'm about to get my DSM back on the road for the first time in roughly 7 years, assuming everything works properly (I'm sure there will be a few misc quirks to iron out and misc things that need replacement), I'm looking to do some further upgrades in the near future. I'll list my full modlist at the bottom of this thread for reference for anyone curious, but the important parts to this conversation are: Built [forged pistons / rods, Port & Polished Head] 2.0L 6-bolt 4G63T, 9:1 compression, EVO 3 16G turbo, FMIC, 3" exhaust, FULL version of DSM link [did it just change name to ECM link or is that different...? Haven't used it in a while, just checked and the software CD says ECM link on it, sooo... whatever that means]. I currently have the stock fuel pump housing, stock fuel lines, and stock fuel rail & pressure regulator. I do have a walbro 255 pump and 850cc injectors though. My long-term goals are likely around 600-700 crank HP (sometime soon I'll do a separate post about my long term goals, as I realize I need to iron those decisions out before actually buying parts / making other major decisions). For some background, I use to volunteer and later work at a motorsports shop (where I picked up much of my mechanic and DSM knowledge), but that was in the early to mid 2000s, so it's been quite a while since I regularly worked on / dealt with these cars (and motorsports in general), so I'm a bit rusty. Also FYI, I have done a bit of computer programming and messed a little with micro-controllers (this could be relevant depending on how involved the engine management side of this could be); that said I'd *prefer* not to have to do custom micro-controller stuff as that could get very involved / time consuming, but I might consider it if it turns out we need it, but only to do something very simple.
So anyways, on with the main topic: I've been looking into different options for upgrading my fuel system (while I don't "need" it quite yet, I'm aware I'm getting very close to that point, and DEFINITELY would need to do so to reach my long term goals). However as I look into some of my options, probably the most "common" one being a twin in-tank pump, and fully upgrading the fuel lines with much bigger AN line, and an upgraded fuel rail, I've started to notice just how expensive that option could be (heck, just the twin in-tank pump HOUSING ALONE costs ~$450, WITHOUT the pumps, and AN line & fittings can get very expensive too). As a quick side note, back when I was involved in motorsports the 255 LPH pumps (or something near that) was the highest flow regular, drop-in-replacement pumps you could get [commonly anyways, maybe there was some obscure options available]. I've noticed that there are some MUCH higher flow pumps available now, is that a meaningful option, or do you quickly start being limited by the small diameter of the stock lines anyways?
...anyways, getting back on the main topic, so I got thinking that if I need to buy a fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel rail, etc., I'm getting the majority of an entire fuel system; would it be an option (and *possibly* cheaper, or at least better value for your money) to actually just ADD a full secondary fuel circuit? Meaning buy a relatively small fuel cell (maybe a couple to several gallons, but probably like 2 to 4 or so), put the new pump in that, run the new lines from that, and just run a second fuel rail. Yes, there are most definitely some... involved aspects of adding a second fuel rail, [i.e. welding in bungs], however, depending on how practical the engine management aspect of this would be, there is a potential BIG advantage: you can run different fuels in your stock tank and the small new tank. My current thought is if I could run regular, 87-octane gas in the stock fuel tank, and use the stock fuel rail to run that gas when just cruising / low boost, then completely DISABLE the stock rail and start using ONLY the injectors in the second rail, where I'd run, say, 93-octane premium [EDIT: MAJOR typo, I meant to say 93 octane, it originally said 91 octane]. I realize this is where it may or may not be a problem from an engine management side - I know a number of people HAVE run duel rails, and I've *heard* that DSM link supports that (in what manner and in what way, I'm not sure - that could also be wrong), however I highly suspect most or all duel rail setups are running BOTH rails at the same time [and possibly using the exact same signals, therefore requiring the same size injectors in both rails]. Duel rails systems is something I've never dealt with before, I've never seen it in person, I've never directly talked to someone that's done it, etc., so I have NO direct knowledge about it.
So, in a perfect world if this WAS practical to do, I'd run 87 octane in the main tank, leave the 255 single in tank pump and stock fuel lines and rail alone, and can run [relatively speaking] smaller injectors to keep good idle control and whatnot. Once you pass a certain threshold (some point well BEFORE you reach the point you're at enough boost that you risk knock on 87 octane) you TURN OFF the first rail, and ONLY use the second rail, with it's entire own fuel tank/system, running 93 octane (or higher). This would also allow me to run VERY large injectors in the second rail (to handle long-term goals of 600 to 700 crank HP) without making it hard to idle. This would also give the option of running something even higher, say race gas, or possibly e-85, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms I probably don't want to get into; for now, let's assume I'd be running premium pump gas in the "high end" tank. If I end up driving the car a lot, this could save a substantial amount of money in gas, as I'd mostly be running on regular, low-octane. Oh, and for reference, I'm considering mounting the small fuel cell in the now-empty front right fender well, since I've removed the side mount and have a FMIC now. That said I'm open to options / thoughts on that too.
I'm aware there are things like this Magnus kit for adding another fuel rail:
www.magnusmotorsports.com
So clearly there's some aftermarket support for it (now, how involved it would be to weld them in I don't know; also, I currently still have a stock intake Mani, but I'm aware I'd need to upgrade that to hit my long term goals anyways.
I suppose there's two main aspects to this I need advice on. First off is the physical aspect of it; does anyone have experience actually installing a 2nd fuel rail setup? Is it super involved to install the bungs, and/or hard to get things to seal up, or any other common issues with doing a 2nd rail?
The other aspect of this I need advice on - and I suspect this is going to be the FAR more complex part - is what are my options from an engine management perspective? What sorts of duel-rail support does DSM link handle? I want to say I heard it can control another rail via a signal pin or two or something like that, is that correct? Of course this would require a separate circuit board with fuel injector drivers on it, but I assume that's probably available / been done before...? Secondly, does DSM link only support cloning a signal (i.e. if you're running two rails with the same size injectors) or controlling both separately? If you can control them separately, is it an option to fully disable one rail? Or, if there's no direct / intended engine management setting for this sort of thing, would there be any workarounds? I.e. having a micro-controller switch over from one rail to the other under certain parameters, and at the same time send a signal to DSM link to switch to a different fuel map (it's been a long time, but I'm pretty sure that DSM link has support for that? As it'd be pretty common for people to want a physical switch or button or something to change between a "high boost" and "low boost" fuel maps, or something like that)?
Anyways, whatever the case, I'm definitely open to all sorts of thoughts and ideas! Also, even if you can't answer the whole question, if you have data or pointers or info on just one aspect of it, that would still be SUPER helpful! Also, as long as it didn't ended up being TOO complicated or cost TOO much more, it would certainly be a fun and interesting and unique build / custom setup, and that might be worth a little extra money to me. That said, I'm not going to get crazy with it, i.e. if it ends up costing another $1000, then yeah, not happening haha. Also, if upgrading the stock system is a lot cheaper these days than I'm thinking (i.e. if a single in-tank pump in the factory housing can handle things now), that would be helpful info for me to learn as well.
Of course, if there's any questions any of you have for me, questions about a setup like this that I don't yet know to ask (likely the case haha), etc., please feel free to ask! Regardless of if I end up doing this or not, I'd like this to become a very helpful thread for future reference for anyone else looking into duel rail setups. I've searched the forum and found only a FEW posts about it, and while there were a little help, didn't get NEARLY technical enough to answer my questions. Hopefully we can change that with this post, and if I do end up building this setup, I'll try to document my progress as best as I can for others to see how to do it, what sorts of problems / challenges they may face, etc.
This is my first post here, but as I'm just about to get my car back on the road (it starts & drives OK, I just need to replace the tires (already ordered, should be getting put on early next week), windshield (either next week or ~3 weeks from now, as I'll be out of town ~2 weeks from now), and some minor exhaust work (I think just 1 or 2 exhaust mounts - assuming we don't find more issues). ...then I need to get it inspected, and who knows what they may or may not find / complain about, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it haha. Anyways, I've been out of the motorsports scene for a while now but been REALLY excited to get back into it for the last several months, so I expect to be on here a lot more starting now haha, as there's so many things (and new things / products / technology) that I'm very excited to learn about / brush up on! So, nice to meet you all, and hope to get to know you all better!
As promised, here's the full (well, nearly full, I don't want to spend all day on this haha) mod list for my car:
My car is a 1991 Eagle Talon Tsi AWD Turbo [Manual Transmission], with a fully built (Forged Pistons & Rods, Ported & Polished Head, Upgraded valve-springs and *slightly* oversize valves) 2.0L 4G63T engine, EVO 3 16G Turbo, 2G MAF, full FMIC intercooler & piping, upgraded bored-out bigger rebuild of stock Throttle Body, aftermarket [stock-style but bigger ports] exhaust manifold, full custom 3" exhaust. Walbro 255 LPH pump, factory fuel lines & rail, 850cc Injectors, full version of DSM link engine management. Resurfaced factory flywheel with ACT 2600 clutch, stock LSD rear end [I think 3-bolt], and a TRE stage 1.5 [I think, either 1.5 or 2] rebuilt transmission. Currently has unknown presumably non-stock cams (we couldn't see any serial numbers/etc. to identify them), but they're either stock or VERY close to stock size. Currently makes around 360 HP and 330 TQ [at the crank] according to DSM link.
I got some Brian Crower 276/276 cams for my birthday (they were on backorder, haven't come in yet, but should soon). It'll be a little while before I'm ready to install them, but it'll be really nice to have them once I am ready to; I mention it because that's a big "coming soon" mod to be aware of.
So anyways, on with the main topic: I've been looking into different options for upgrading my fuel system (while I don't "need" it quite yet, I'm aware I'm getting very close to that point, and DEFINITELY would need to do so to reach my long term goals). However as I look into some of my options, probably the most "common" one being a twin in-tank pump, and fully upgrading the fuel lines with much bigger AN line, and an upgraded fuel rail, I've started to notice just how expensive that option could be (heck, just the twin in-tank pump HOUSING ALONE costs ~$450, WITHOUT the pumps, and AN line & fittings can get very expensive too). As a quick side note, back when I was involved in motorsports the 255 LPH pumps (or something near that) was the highest flow regular, drop-in-replacement pumps you could get [commonly anyways, maybe there was some obscure options available]. I've noticed that there are some MUCH higher flow pumps available now, is that a meaningful option, or do you quickly start being limited by the small diameter of the stock lines anyways?
...anyways, getting back on the main topic, so I got thinking that if I need to buy a fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel rail, etc., I'm getting the majority of an entire fuel system; would it be an option (and *possibly* cheaper, or at least better value for your money) to actually just ADD a full secondary fuel circuit? Meaning buy a relatively small fuel cell (maybe a couple to several gallons, but probably like 2 to 4 or so), put the new pump in that, run the new lines from that, and just run a second fuel rail. Yes, there are most definitely some... involved aspects of adding a second fuel rail, [i.e. welding in bungs], however, depending on how practical the engine management aspect of this would be, there is a potential BIG advantage: you can run different fuels in your stock tank and the small new tank. My current thought is if I could run regular, 87-octane gas in the stock fuel tank, and use the stock fuel rail to run that gas when just cruising / low boost, then completely DISABLE the stock rail and start using ONLY the injectors in the second rail, where I'd run, say, 93-octane premium [EDIT: MAJOR typo, I meant to say 93 octane, it originally said 91 octane]. I realize this is where it may or may not be a problem from an engine management side - I know a number of people HAVE run duel rails, and I've *heard* that DSM link supports that (in what manner and in what way, I'm not sure - that could also be wrong), however I highly suspect most or all duel rail setups are running BOTH rails at the same time [and possibly using the exact same signals, therefore requiring the same size injectors in both rails]. Duel rails systems is something I've never dealt with before, I've never seen it in person, I've never directly talked to someone that's done it, etc., so I have NO direct knowledge about it.
So, in a perfect world if this WAS practical to do, I'd run 87 octane in the main tank, leave the 255 single in tank pump and stock fuel lines and rail alone, and can run [relatively speaking] smaller injectors to keep good idle control and whatnot. Once you pass a certain threshold (some point well BEFORE you reach the point you're at enough boost that you risk knock on 87 octane) you TURN OFF the first rail, and ONLY use the second rail, with it's entire own fuel tank/system, running 93 octane (or higher). This would also allow me to run VERY large injectors in the second rail (to handle long-term goals of 600 to 700 crank HP) without making it hard to idle. This would also give the option of running something even higher, say race gas, or possibly e-85, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms I probably don't want to get into; for now, let's assume I'd be running premium pump gas in the "high end" tank. If I end up driving the car a lot, this could save a substantial amount of money in gas, as I'd mostly be running on regular, low-octane. Oh, and for reference, I'm considering mounting the small fuel cell in the now-empty front right fender well, since I've removed the side mount and have a FMIC now. That said I'm open to options / thoughts on that too.
I'm aware there are things like this Magnus kit for adding another fuel rail:
Magnus Secondary Fuel Rail Weld in Kit – Magnus Motorsports
www.magnusmotorsports.comI suppose there's two main aspects to this I need advice on. First off is the physical aspect of it; does anyone have experience actually installing a 2nd fuel rail setup? Is it super involved to install the bungs, and/or hard to get things to seal up, or any other common issues with doing a 2nd rail?
The other aspect of this I need advice on - and I suspect this is going to be the FAR more complex part - is what are my options from an engine management perspective? What sorts of duel-rail support does DSM link handle? I want to say I heard it can control another rail via a signal pin or two or something like that, is that correct? Of course this would require a separate circuit board with fuel injector drivers on it, but I assume that's probably available / been done before...? Secondly, does DSM link only support cloning a signal (i.e. if you're running two rails with the same size injectors) or controlling both separately? If you can control them separately, is it an option to fully disable one rail? Or, if there's no direct / intended engine management setting for this sort of thing, would there be any workarounds? I.e. having a micro-controller switch over from one rail to the other under certain parameters, and at the same time send a signal to DSM link to switch to a different fuel map (it's been a long time, but I'm pretty sure that DSM link has support for that? As it'd be pretty common for people to want a physical switch or button or something to change between a "high boost" and "low boost" fuel maps, or something like that)?
Anyways, whatever the case, I'm definitely open to all sorts of thoughts and ideas! Also, even if you can't answer the whole question, if you have data or pointers or info on just one aspect of it, that would still be SUPER helpful! Also, as long as it didn't ended up being TOO complicated or cost TOO much more, it would certainly be a fun and interesting and unique build / custom setup, and that might be worth a little extra money to me. That said, I'm not going to get crazy with it, i.e. if it ends up costing another $1000, then yeah, not happening haha. Also, if upgrading the stock system is a lot cheaper these days than I'm thinking (i.e. if a single in-tank pump in the factory housing can handle things now), that would be helpful info for me to learn as well.
Of course, if there's any questions any of you have for me, questions about a setup like this that I don't yet know to ask (likely the case haha), etc., please feel free to ask! Regardless of if I end up doing this or not, I'd like this to become a very helpful thread for future reference for anyone else looking into duel rail setups. I've searched the forum and found only a FEW posts about it, and while there were a little help, didn't get NEARLY technical enough to answer my questions. Hopefully we can change that with this post, and if I do end up building this setup, I'll try to document my progress as best as I can for others to see how to do it, what sorts of problems / challenges they may face, etc.
This is my first post here, but as I'm just about to get my car back on the road (it starts & drives OK, I just need to replace the tires (already ordered, should be getting put on early next week), windshield (either next week or ~3 weeks from now, as I'll be out of town ~2 weeks from now), and some minor exhaust work (I think just 1 or 2 exhaust mounts - assuming we don't find more issues). ...then I need to get it inspected, and who knows what they may or may not find / complain about, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it haha. Anyways, I've been out of the motorsports scene for a while now but been REALLY excited to get back into it for the last several months, so I expect to be on here a lot more starting now haha, as there's so many things (and new things / products / technology) that I'm very excited to learn about / brush up on! So, nice to meet you all, and hope to get to know you all better!
As promised, here's the full (well, nearly full, I don't want to spend all day on this haha) mod list for my car:
My car is a 1991 Eagle Talon Tsi AWD Turbo [Manual Transmission], with a fully built (Forged Pistons & Rods, Ported & Polished Head, Upgraded valve-springs and *slightly* oversize valves) 2.0L 4G63T engine, EVO 3 16G Turbo, 2G MAF, full FMIC intercooler & piping, upgraded bored-out bigger rebuild of stock Throttle Body, aftermarket [stock-style but bigger ports] exhaust manifold, full custom 3" exhaust. Walbro 255 LPH pump, factory fuel lines & rail, 850cc Injectors, full version of DSM link engine management. Resurfaced factory flywheel with ACT 2600 clutch, stock LSD rear end [I think 3-bolt], and a TRE stage 1.5 [I think, either 1.5 or 2] rebuilt transmission. Currently has unknown presumably non-stock cams (we couldn't see any serial numbers/etc. to identify them), but they're either stock or VERY close to stock size. Currently makes around 360 HP and 330 TQ [at the crank] according to DSM link.
I got some Brian Crower 276/276 cams for my birthday (they were on backorder, haven't come in yet, but should soon). It'll be a little while before I'm ready to install them, but it'll be really nice to have them once I am ready to; I mention it because that's a big "coming soon" mod to be aware of.
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