Compression +, No oil/coolant mix, TONS OF WHITE SMOKE

[gsxbri]

Here we go, thread #1 for me, so please point out what I also need to tell ya if I ommit anything. Nicely that is, no flaming is needed, and i am very good at being mean too...

BACKGROUND: 99gsx Car has been on jack stands for 4 months. Did a e316g swap, external dump o2, new o2 sensors, fmic with piping, greddy types bov (knock off), walbro255, 550 PTE injectors, afpr, apexi afc neo, palm3c datalogger. if ya check my profile you can see all the stuff, i'm sure i'm forgetting some. BUT back to the point.

Got eveything bolted on, filled my fluids, double then triple checked for leaks, found one on the oil feed on the turbo, getting my stainless feed this week. didnt know the t25 fitting was no good for the evo16g, so that runs a little, but not horrible. once i checked and rechecked everything i cranked her up. HOLY WHITE SMOKE BATMAN!!!!!!! exhaust pumps out more smoke than a fog machine at a concert. did not notice the smoke when the car was parked with the toasted t25. have 2 of em if anybody needs some big paperweights

1st thought head gasket. checked compression. 175 across the board?!?! 100k on the motor and every cyl showed from 170-175. i dont see how its possible but i checked it 3 times. running the engine between checks. and yes, she was hot. drained fluids, no mixing of coolant and oil. since all new fluids were added i figured it would be real easy to tell if they were mixing. i dont know what to check next. when it runs it is silky smooth, my a/f gage shows dead middle optimal, i did however find a DTC i did not have befoe, 1150 maf ground. cleared the code, cleaned the connectors, now the code is gone, must not have been making good contact. anyway, no more DTCs no matter how long you let her pump smoke. i'm at a dead end of my technical intuition.

is it possible for a bad a/f ratio to cause white smoke? i was always under the assumption that was only from coolant in the combustion chamber. WTF she sounds great, no rough idle, starts at 1.5k and settles around 800. any ideas or did i totally F somethin up. anyway, if there is another piece to the puzzle i have let out let me know and i'll get the data. i've been working on this car for so long i'm about to drop a 1/4 stick in a plug hole and see if that fixes it! no way, too much hard work and i LOVE MY DSM. Even if it does give me 100 gray hairs a day!

 

[gsxbri]

Not looking for a magic fix. I just want to be able to check/diagnose everything that i can without pulling the head. The timing/balance belts and water pump are going to be done as soon as the rest of the parts come in(hopefully end of this week) So I'll have a bunch of garbage out of the way and should be able to get to everything without a prob. Any advice/direction will be greatly appreciated!!!!

The car hasn't been on the road in forever, so i'm making sure to take my time and i'm not rushing anything, when she goes back on the road i want to tune for 300 and let it go. I just want a quick awd daily driver, not a 1/4 mile monster. thought that would be nice down the road

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

My K 26 turbo on my GS poured white smoke when the seals on the center section went out and leaked coolant into the exhaust housing.

 

[gsxbri]

I hope that isn't it. Brand spankin new out of the box e316g. and i replaced all of the factory pipes with new 2.25" hard pipe, plus new j pipe of course goin from the t25 to the 16g. only place there should be any oil left is in the throttle body/intake manifold. which i will clean one of these days. just tryin to get her back on the road right now. and when the t25 died it wasnt mixing coolant with the oil. the old oil came out black and old coolant came out green. definatly not mixing. plus i drained the new fluids and they are beautiful. thnx for the thought though!

 

[92awddsm]

The smoking could possibly be the oil burning out of the ic/dp and cat. If your t-25 died a harsh death, chances are it could have pumped oil in the exhaust and/or ic if you didnt clean it.

 

[gsxbri]

yeah, thats along the same lines i was thinkin. but all new ic piping. when you give her gas the thickness of the smoke increases too. think i should run her some more if it is burning off, or is that not safe at this point. of course just looking for opinion.

 

[crunchymilk]

My car had a similar problem. It turned out the oil return line from the turbo was kinked causing the oil to get stuck and burned in the turbo. Check it out.

 

[gsxbri]

will check. that came new with the turbo, my oil feed will be here by wed. will get that feed leak fixed, and the return is very easy to get too, so i'll make sure there is oil comin out of there. i'll also pull the ic piping below the Jpipe to see if there is any coolant or oil in there as well. great idea, thnx for the input!

edit:
almost forgot
at idle there is very little smoke, but it is noticable.
Rev the motor and its like a thunder cloud rolling in. No sputter/backfire/roughness. And when the lil old t25 nose dived it was black smoke, didnt see white, doesnt mean it wasnt there, i just never noticed. Just black when i gave the throttle what for from the oil blowin through the t25. as long as my newb azz was diagnosing the problem correctly.

 

[92awddsm]

yeah, thats along the same lines i was thinkin. but all new ic piping. when you give her gas the thickness of the smoke increases too. think i should run her some more if it is burning off, or is that not safe at this point. of course just looking for opinion.

Did you clean or replace the ic itself? It can hold a few qts of oil.

 

[gsxbri]

yupperz, brand spankin new fmic. Godspeed, a direct rip off of the Apexi setup. both pipes come out one side. yeah. here is a rundown from intake back.

NEW: hard intake/turbo/jpip/icpipe/fmic/icpipe/o2housing
OLD:throttle body/intake manif
6months old:3"Apexi N1 from new tubular o2 back.

i'm takin the oil return off right now to make sure its got oil in it, and the ic pipe after the J pipe to make sure i'm not blowin oil or coolant through.

KEEP IT COMIN GUYZ!! THNX SO MUCH!!

 

[nightspeed87]

Sounds like your having oil problems if your going thru turbos, how long of a interm did it take you to go between the two turbos you went thru? and make sure your turbos werent caulking the oil feed line from running it hard and turning it off quickly and not letting it cool any. and if those ideas arent any good, then make sure your air fuel ratios are not going crazy because i was also thinking that maybe its from the car running extremely rich. maybe not, anyone able to back me up on that idea?

 

[nightspeed87]

yea and if you were going to clean your intercooler,then gasoline worked for me! Just becareful when doing it, and make sure its rinsed out thoroughly and dried completley before reinstalled. but when you put the new one on consider making a oil catch can, or putting a breather filter on the valve cover where the line runs to your intake arm to prevent oil from blowing into the new ic and detrimenting the ic's cooling abilities. Just a thought

 

[gsxbri]

only on my 2nd turbo. that was kinda misleading. the t25 was good for 100k miles. i got a used t25 that i was gonna put in but figured why put in a half dead turbo. the kid ran it at 20lbs for probably 30-40k miles. some of the fins were beat up so i figured it wasnt a good replacement. thats why i got 2 of em that are good for door stops

your thoughts about the a/f ratio causing smoke was my 1st guess. since just about every bolt on external mod has just been installed and this is the first time firing up. i didnt know if i just had things so far outta whack that she is lettin me know about it. but i'm not throwing dtc's and it seems to idle pretty smooth i figured it was close enough. i got the fuel pressure at 45. the oil i'm not exactly sure of the pressure, gotta install my sending unit for my new oil gage. but the factory jobbie sits the same place it did before the turbo swap. half way at idle and around 3/4 under rev. if anybody could shed light on the a/f ratio puffin smoke that would be awesome, if that is a valid condition that is. will post my results on the oil return and ic piping check. shouldnt take long. be back from the garage soon!!

edit:nightspeed, just did that put a breather filter on the valve cover. awesome ideas!! you get a frikin cookie!!

 

[gsxbri]

WTF

Results from oil return and ic pipe check.

Oil return, disconnected, oil came out, guessing thats good.
IC pipe....
disconnected. full of oil. no coolant, just oil. black, must have been some old stuff left in the line or something. but anyway, oil in my ic pipe. that cant be f'n good
ok. so, obviously some oil got through the turbo. is it an istallation error, or is my BRAND F'N NEW TURBO HOSED?!?!? the car has not been taken off the jack stands, so there was never any boost under load. oil feed is leaking a little, if anything that would cause there to be less pressure you would think, the oil return spit oil out when i disconnected it, so its flowing. are we looking at a defunct turbo out of the box? or did i do something to kill it? after install i had no fuel/spark so i could crank and check for leaks, which i found that one on the feed, and know the fix and am waiting for the part. but i cant see how this would even remotely cause oil to get into the ic pipe. i'm so pissed. now i prob have to take off all my new pipes and NEW FMIC TO CLEAN!!!! wow, i should just take a break, i'm really heated right now. but in the mean time, lemme know your opionions and what should i do to see if the seals are toast in the turbo. its a stamped/serialized DSM EVOIII 16g. Where did I put that quarter stick......

 

[nightspeed87]

umm for a catch can you can use a fuel filter with the like white canister around it and see how much oil your catching . Kind of ghetto though. Its not nessesarily bad that its full of oil in the ic pipeing, actually im sure its pretty common, just clean it all out. As far as the turbo im not sure, just try and make sure its getting proper oil supply thru the feed line, and make sure its getting proper coolant supply. Even spray throttle body cleaner in the throttle body if you want to go an extra step maybe it will help a little. But you say you put a breather filter so it should at least stop your oil problem if it was getting into the intake tract from there.

 

[nightspeed87]

check your oil pressure too if possible? Make sure if its where its suppose to be. if you still have the oil return line disconnected try to like make sure its completely clean and like stick something straight and long down there that will fit in the tube ( while its off ) and see if you can scrape any caulking off that may be from hot oil hardnening to make sure the flow of the oil return line isnt somewhat clogged. And i dont think coolant shouldve been in the ic pipeing anyways. It cant be too bad if your compression wasnt bad, so it wont be blow by from your piston rings being worn, so if thats not the problem it cant be too bad, and if it is running really rich then no that big a prob because running rich wont kill your engine, but running lean will, and i never know a car to smoke from running lean either, so i dont think your problems are too serious.

 

[crunchymilk]

Well if your info is accurate that it was a brand new turbo AND a brand new IC and piping, then I would have to say the turbo is fubared. The seals aren't holding if it's BRAND new. Did you prep it properly as shown in the FAQ? Pulled that fuse?

I would clean it all and then do some pulls, find out exactly how much oil is getting through there.

 

[gsxbri]

i dont know man. i dont see how 1/4 inch of oil in the IC pipe can be good for a car that has only been idled/revved and never driven. I'm going to take off the upper ic piping and see if it is making it up to the Throttle body. since i havent generated any boost yet i dont think it would make it through the fmic to the intake manifold, but since its blowing hella smoke it probably is. Brand new turbo, fmic, pipes and its 500 times worse than with the blown t25?

i just really have a bad feeling that the seals are non existant in this new turbo.

is there anybody that knows of any installation errors that can cause such a large quantity of oil to get past the turbo? there is no coolant mixing in, so that at least is still good. I'm going to clean out the oil and run it again to see if more collects. i've drained/filled fluids in this stupid thing 3 times today. I'm really getting upset. I've put probably 200-300 hrs in this car in the last month. Researching, taking my time, forcing nothing, checking torque specs. I don't know what I could have possibly done wrong to cause a condition like this. i mean, oil goes into the turbo on the top, comes out on the bottom, coolant goes in one side and out the other. AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?!?! I am by no means a mechanic, but I am an electronic engineer. I know how to read schematics, follow directions and not to rush or force things. I will inspect the return closer. I may even remove it and put a bucket underneath it to see if it runs out to make sure that housing between the intake and exhaust sections isnt bad from the manuf. Any more advice is of course appreciated. You guys are great and I greatly appreciate all of your input.

 

[gsxbri]

Yeah crunchy, i'm thinking that. I did in fact have the engine fuse pulled, fuel pump unplugged, coil unplugged, and cranked the engine for about 10-20 seconds. and with the oil leak i know it was flowing to the turbo, and probably through it.

So I guess I get to take everything back off, clean it, and see whats going on. Keep in mind this is happening on jack stands, not being driven, if its doin this up in the air, there is no way i'm puttin her on the street. At least if it grenades right now its in the garage, not on the highway. Anybody want a gsx with a buttload of stuff that doesnt work?

 

[nightspeed87]

yea wow... Is there a way you could get any pics and show us were the oils filling up, and exactly how the turbo looks, because maybe then somebody could identify that turbo and set up and see if theres any flaws.... i wish you the best of luck, ive been thru some head ache cars before, and i understand how you feel... My car is down right now if that makes you feel any better?? But im sure the problem cant be too bad, maybe you should just take the turbo off and get it inspected if you think that your turbo is defective.

 

[nightspeed87]

did you check to see if the oil made it up to the throttle body and inside the manifold because if it hasnt then you no the white smoke wasnt from oil if it didnt get that far??!!

 

[gsxbri]

just checked, no oil in upper ic pipes. and with the routing of the pipes i think it actually didnt make it to the FMIC. there is a low spot from the jpipe where it goes around the radiator to the fmic and i think it is collecting there since i havent boosted yet. Have not gone above atmosphere since there is no load on the engine. so at least i know the upper ic pipes are still perfectly clean, just need to check the fmic and clean the pipes from the turbo to the fmic. I'm still going to do my bucket test and run it for a short time with the return disconnected to see how much oil is flowing out of the turbo. Don't worry, I won't run her dry ;-)

edit: just took pics, gettin ready to upload where the oil is collecting and a pic of the setup

 

[nightspeed87]

sounds like a plan. It doesnt smoke when your not boosting right? Well yea what you say might be your problem, id have to be there and see whats going on from this point because it sounds a little different than i expected, but i think the worse it could be is your turbo isnt sealing up right. Or maybe the oil passage in the turbo is cracked or leaking??

 

[gsxbri]

here are links to pics.
1. general shot, you can see the piping/mbc/bov/manif etc.
http://home.earthlink.net/~webtek/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/generalsetupresize.jpg
2. shot of top of turbo, you can see the oem oil feed that is going to be replaced with the banjo fitted stainless line.
http://home.earthlink.net/~webtek/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/topofturboresize.jpg
3. shot of the ic pipes, the bottom one that wraps around the radiator frame is the one collecting oil. wasn't quite as much as I originally thought, but i wouldnt think ANY should come out of a new turbo.
http://home.earthlink.net/~webtek/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/pipingresize.jpg

lemme know if these pics are any help. i can always get more

edit: nightspeed, you are right, that is the worse it could be since its a brand new turbo. I got it off ebay, but its not an SSautochrome pos. It looks like an authentic DSM evo3, stamp looks good as far as i can tell, but of course that can be copied. if it is a doa turbo, i hope they honor a replacement. but even moreso i hope i dont have to try.... I don't think i'm going to do anything else until i have the proper feed line installed and clean my new pipes out good and quadrouple check everything. i hate working around a known bad variable, as we all know that is a hack way of doing things. So i'll be patient, walk away from her till i get the good oil feed and go from there. AND I agree with you. If there is no oil in the upper ic pipe I dont think the turbo is causing the smoke either. Sheesh.. what a frikin bummer... I thought I was doing such a good job and I was so proud of what I have accomplished up until now. Only to have everything blow up in my face :-(

 

[crunchymilk]

I still have a sneaking suspiscion it is the oil return line. When mine kinked, I couldn't really tell from the outside. I had to take it out and look inside, and sure enough, the inside had pinched together only letting about 1mm of oil flow through it, oil backed up, burned, etc. With no oil in the UICP that's all I can think of right now. I'll give it some thought later. But just for some peace of mind, with the car blowing smoke, put your hand right outside the exhaust for about 20 seconds. Is there oily residue on your hand? Rub your hands together and see if it's "lubed"