Check out my log, question on knock

[Eagle 5]

Mods are in my profile but in short, main ones are big16g, walbro 255, afpr base set at 37, 660s, VPC, 8.5:1 compression (2g pistons), starion FMIC, ported 2g exhaust mani/ O2, 2.5 exhaust exiting before rear diff (temp exhaust) boost line straight to wastegate. boost went up to around 11-12 psi during the pull. the VPC was set up on a car before me for 18 psi on a br475. so i didnt mess with any of the settings. This is on my 1g AWD and not the 2g in my sig.

this is a 3rd gear pull, fuel trims were low 81, mid 83, high 107
RPM Knock Timing Inj D/C TPS
3156 0 38 6.08 21
3156 0 38 6.08 21
3156 0 38 6.08 21
3156 0 38 6.73 22
3188 0 38 7.49 24
3156 0 38 6.73 19
3188 0 38 6.14 20
3188 0 38 5.45 21
3156 0 38 6.73 25
3188 0 37 10.23 31
3188 0 35 11.58 34
3219 0 34 13.76 35
3281 0 34 15.42 46
3281 0 31 16.13 51
3344 0 30 17.14 58
3344 0 29 20.01 100
3438 0 28 21.32 100
3500 0 27 23.19 100
3531 0 27 24.13 100
3563 0 27 25.89 100
3594 0 26 26.87 100
3656 0 26 28.12 100
3719 0 26 29.41 100
3781 0 26 30.69 100
3813 0 26 30.95 100
3906 0 26 32.55 100
3938 0 26 32.82 95
3969 0 26 33.93 93
4063 1 25 34.74 93
4188 1 25 36.68 93
4219 0 27 37.87 93
4375 0 26 41.13 94
4406 0 26 42.37 94
4469 0 26 43.91 96
4688 0 26 47.08 97
4719 0 26 48.41 99
4813 0 25 50.38 100
4938 0 25 52.75 100
5031 4 24 53.75 100
5063 4 23 55.19 100
5250 10 22 57.23 100
5313 16 21 59.02 100
5406 15 22 60.05 100
5438 15 21 61.59 100
5500 15 22 63.48 100
5656 15 23 65.28 100
5625 15 23 63.7 100
5719 15 23 64.77 100
5844 19 21 67.45 100
5875 19 23 67.81 100
5969 32 18 68.89 100
6031 32 18 70.86 100
6188 32 18 72.71 100
6188 31 18 72.71 100
6188 31 18 72.71 100
6344 32 17 69.15 36
6125 27 36 10.46 11
6250 3 44 9.32 11
6156 0 45 9.18 11

here is a 2nd gear pull that i did a few minutes later, same fuel trims
RPM Knock Timing TPS Inj D/C
2594 0 37 19 4.99
2625 0 37 20 5.05
2656 0 37 20 5.11
2656 0 37 22 5.11
2688 0 36 29 8.62
2781 0 35 32 10.1
2844 0 32 52 13.37
2969 0 32 77 15.22
3188 0 31 99 17.03
3250 0 30 100 18.06
3406 0 30 100 19.64
3594 0 29 100 21.5
3969 1 25 100 32.22
4188 1 25 100 36.68
4438 4 25 100 42.68
4656 4 24 100 46.75
4906 3 24 100 51.35
5156 3 25 100 55.08
5406 3 26 100 58.93
5625 3 26 100 62.48
5813 3 28 100 64.57
6000 10 26 100 66.65
6125 16 23 100 66.76
6281 16 23 100 67.1
6469 16 24 100 69.11
6688 15 23 100 68.61
6781 15 21 100 69.56
6906 15 21 100 70.84
7063 14 21 22 67.92
6594 5 43 11 9.84

My question has to do with the knock coming in around the higher rpms. Do I just not have enough fuel or is it possible that my loud ass exhaust is causing the knock sensor to pick up something?

 

[Eagle 5]

by the way I have a brand new knock sensor and O2 sensor

 

[scottsee]

your injecor d/c and tps looks fine. how about taking those off, and adding o2's to see whats going on there.

 

[Eagle 5]

your injecor d/c and tps looks fine. how about taking those off, and adding o2's to see whats going on there.

O2 trims go to 100 on wot, unless you mean the 02 volts. Ill put them up when i get home

 

[Eagle 5]

well the O2 value goes to 0.00 and the O2 trim goes to 100 at 100%TPS, since no longer in closed loop this makes sense.

we figured the base timing is messed up currently. However I'm still having problems getting the car to idle correctly so until we can do that we cant fix the base timing.

 

[red93tsi]

O2 trims go to 100 on wot, unless you mean the 02 volts. Ill put them up when i get home

Hey, Eagle, what's up?

Your o2 trims mean nothing for WOT tuning. You should really only use those to dial in your closed loop settings, other than telling you that you're in open loop mode, (which is obvious by o2v), it's just slowing down your samples per second rate. IMO you can also not worry about loggin your timing on a 1g til you have your knock counts down. check your base timing with a timing gun, and "set it, then forget it" unless you're running dsmlink, ecu+, or the likewise. I'd personally make sure your tps ranges from ruffly 8-11 shut to 100 @ WOT, check your timing as mentioned earlier, and then don't bother logging them til you are doing a bit more of fine tuning like setting the throttle points on the afc, etc. This also makes it easier to read if you run pocketlogger sw and use the PL viewer. I would just monitor your o2v, duty cycle, rpm,knock and maybe timing, but its useless at this point since knock will tell you the same thing, and you have no control over timing other than retarding your case timing with your cas. That actually is probably not a bad idea. With your afc telling your ecu less air is flowing through, you're getting more timing advance. I have mine set @ 2-3* BTDC with my 580cc injectors. (5btdc is stock) 2* btdc would probably be a good starting point for setting your tuning. Once you have it dialed in better, you may want to advance it back to stock, or as far as you can w/o getting much knock. Take your time to dial in your hi settings, and make sure you have a smooth curve. If you're getting a random low knock count, that's ok. That means you're on the very edge where the power is. I personally try to keep mine down, 7 at the max is what I aim for, but 0-3 would be ideal.

The knock in the higher rpms is easier to get because that is when your cylinder pressures are the highest, peak torque to be exact. I often struggle in the same area, but don't be afraid to richen it up a bit there. My hi settings curve dips down to about -8 around 5k, and by 7 k is in the +5 range. I believe I'm still lean up top judging by a quick dyno run with a wb02 a little while back. Keep in mind I have a hacked mas.


Basically with 02v, and duty cycle v.s. knock and rpm, you should be able to get a descent street tune on it. Give it a try, and let us know. Remember also that knock kind of acts like a domino effect so I would just start with where the knock spikes, and leave the later settings as long as they look pretty smooth and linear.

Any questions just ask, and let us know how it turns out.

- Dan

 

[dnhieu]

that is alot of very good info, but why would you start your tuning by setting it to 2 btdc instead of the reguar 5 btdc?

eclipse talon laser

 

[red93tsi]

that is alot of very good info, but why would you start your tuning by setting it to 2 btdc instead of the reguar 5 btdc?

eclipse talon laser

Because you get detonation from only a select few things. Notice I said detonation, and not what your knock sensor is picking up. So lets pretend this is a perfect world w/o phantom knock. anyways........ High combustion chamber pressure spikes are the result. Most of the time its caused by running too lean, or too advanced timing, but other things like carbon build up creating "hot spots" can attribute. They both raise temps and as a result, either of the 2 can cause a separate flame front to develop in the cc (combustion chamber). When this happens the 2 fronts meet and create a very short lived pressure spike which can damage internal components. Ever seen a piston that looks like it was used as a bowling ball on a gravel lane? Well that's what happens, tons of small chunks are broken off or burned on the piston, which can get really bad if it effects the ring lands. Do not confuse this with preignition. I won't get into that right now, cause once it happens, your motor is hot anyways, so it's pointless as far as this thread goes. Anyways the other usual culprit would be carbon build up in the cc. This can usually be solved by cc cleaner or water injection, but that's a whole nother thread. The knock sensor may also be picking up "phantom knock", but I would use that as a last resort excuse, especially on the top end @ WOT. Up there it is almost certain detonation that the sensor is picking up. Usually the p knock is caused by lifters or other harmonics produced by the motor, which I believe my motor likes to produce unfortunately , still working on pin pointing/resolving that issue. Anyways, Ill stop rambling now, I often get carried away, and I probably answeredthe question several minutes ago, .



Moral of the post is it gives you more room for error when you're tuning, and allows you to run a bit leaner, or a bit more boost.


Later,

- Dan

 

[dnhieu]

its alright to ramble on man you learn more useless shit that way . anyways, your saying by setting your your timing to 2btdc you eliminate this "denation"/"knock"? sorry for the dumb questions your the first person that i have ever seen to start tuning on 2btdc insead of 5btdc.

eclipse talon laser

 

[red93tsi]

I added a line to the end of my last post after I read it, I released how far off topic I got.

2 reasons really.


1 running larger injectors w/ a piggy back fuel controller tricks the ecu, and as a result you get more timing than the ecu would actually call for under those load conditions. SO retarding the timing a bit is actually putting it closer to stock. 2 maybe 3 degrees retard w/ 650cc's is probably about stock.

2 it allows for more error or room to tune with. Kind of like turning down the boost. You may have heard that it is easier to dial a car in at lower boost levels than you will be actually trying to run, well it's the same with timing. Lowering the boost, adding fuel, or retarding timing will all lower cylinder temps, creating less of a chance for knock. You should really start by setting timing where you want it, then dial in your a/f, then see how much boost you can run with that tune on your particular set up.

 

[dnhieu]

you should make a DSM tuning video called "tuning made easy" haha ! . thanks for the time man your info will be used wisely

eclipse talon laser

 

[iamtall77]

I would say you have rich knock. I tried setting up some 550's and a 2G MAS without any base setting and got crazy knock. I went back to stock injectors and stock MAS and i can run great without knock problems and zeroed out on the S-AFCII. You might try leaning it out quiet a bit and see if it gets better or worse. I would guess you're running way too much fuel for such a low boost setting. I could be wrong, but that's my experience.

 

[Eagle 5]

thanks red. Right now the biggest problem I have is that my car wont idle like it should, hence why I can not set the base timing. i know this is bad but we set the base timing at like 1000-1100 rpms, it wont idle any lower, and when it does its rare. It normally idles around 1300-1400. TPS is at 11 when fully closed and 100 when fully opened. not worried there.

Also I am running the VPC only, no AFC so I cant change things that way. I believe if I can get my car to idle correctly and have the base timing set where it should be, the knock will either go away or go down a lot.

Also, I rebuilt the engine, it only has maybe 180 miles on it currently so not worried about any type of carbon build up etc or anything like that yet. And nothing is routed to the intake other than air going in, no egr, and i have a oil catch can so both pcv valve and other vc line go to that. my intake should stay as clean as the air going into it (hopefully at least).

Lifters do not tick and I dont have any phantom knock.

As I said, I believe my biggest problem is setting the base timing, so until I can get my car to idle correctly, I wont be pushing or doing any runs. Once I can get it to idle Like it should and get the timing set Ill do another 3rd gear pull and see what happens then. At most I may have to turn the gain knob for fuel a notch but dont know yet. I should not have to tweak it much though.

I believe my idle problem has to do with the FIAV,. Hopefully tomorrow I can take the tb off and see if I can clean it out even more, not sure what to do though about the FIAV if I can clean it or if something is just gunked up in there. I cleaned the tb before I ever put it on but it sitll may have some crap in it.

 

[red93tsi]

you should make a DSM tuning video called "tuning made easy" haha ! . thanks for the time man your info will be used wisely

eclipse talon laser

, that would mean I'd have to be good at it!

No problem, if you have any questions, I'm usually on Mach v alot more often than I pop up here.

Later,

- Dan

 

[Eagle 5]

I would say you have rich knock. I tried setting up some 550's and a 2G MAS without any base setting and got crazy knock. I went back to stock injectors and stock MAS and i can run great without knock problems and zeroed out on the S-AFCII. You might try leaning it out quiet a bit and see if it gets better or worse. I would guess you're running way too much fuel for such a low boost setting. I could be wrong, but that's my experience.

I dont really wont to lean it out yet since the boost will be turned up to 18-20 psi somewhat soon. Jsut trying to break the engine in currently so leaving it whatever level the wastegate will hold it at. The settings on the VPC are currently setup for 18 psi on a br475 but i dont remember if the guy before me had the 7.8:1 pistons or different ones. I have 2g pistons so i figure if anything I would actually need to increase the amount of fuel slightly, but as I said above, I still need to fix my idle problems and turn the boost up.

also I have my new exhaust stuff in, just need to wait till my friend can bring their welder over so we can weld the ss together.

red- cool, though your name sounded familiar

 

[red93tsi]

thanks red. Right now the biggest problem I have is that my car wont idle like it should, hence why I can not set the base timing. i know this is bad but we set the base timing at like 1000-1100 rpms, it wont idle any lower, and when it does its rare. It normally idles around 1300-1400. TPS is at 11 when fully closed and 100 when fully opened. not worried there.

Also I am running the VPC only, no AFC so I cant change things that way. I believe if I can get my car to idle correctly and have the base timing set where it should be, the knock will either go away or go down a lot.

Also, I rebuilt the engine, it only has maybe 180 miles on it currently so not worried about any type of carbon build up etc or anything like that yet. And nothing is routed to the intake other than air going in, no egr, and i have a oil catch can so both pcv valve and other vc line go to that. my intake should stay as clean as the air going into it (hopefully at least).

Lifters do not tick and I dont have any phantom knock.

As I said, I believe my biggest problem is setting the base timing, so until I can get my car to idle correctly, I wont be pushing or doing any runs. Once I can get it to idle Like it should and get the timing set Ill do another 3rd gear pull and see what happens then. At most I may have to turn the gain knob for fuel a notch but dont know yet. I should not have to tweak it much though.

I believe my idle problem has to do with the FIAV,. Hopefully tomorrow I can take the tb off and see if I can clean it out even more, not sure what to do though about the FIAV if I can clean it or if something is just gunked up in there. I cleaned the tb before I ever put it on but it sitll may have some crap in it.

I'll have to read this later and get back to you probably tommorrow, sorry.

 

[iamtall77]

Can't get it to idle, sounds like you have too much fuel. ( like i said before) Not sure how you tune the fuel with the VPC, but with those injectors, idle is the hard part. With more boost, you should be okay on fuel. I was just commenting on the current setup and how it was running. Once the boost is upped, then you should have an idea of what you need to do. Don't worry about what that log says right now.

 

[Eagle 5]

Can't get it to idle, sounds like you have too much fuel. ( like i said before) Not sure how you tune the fuel with the VPC, but with those injectors, idle is the hard part. With more boost, you should be okay on fuel. I was just commenting on the current setup and how it was running. Once the boost is upped, then you should have an idea of what you need to do. Don't worry about what that log says right now.

I guess I should be clear about the idle. It idles absolutely fine. Not too much fuel or anything, the idle problem is it wont idle below 1300-1400 rpms.

I'm taking the tb off today and going to check the FIAV and see if everything is gunked up or what not, figure it may be stuck open hence why the idle is so high. I must just block it off and deal with it, just have to hold the gas for abit after start up. So once we get it to idle at the RPMS it should, I can set the base timing and try another run. Hopefully that fixes the problem.

 

[red93tsi]

I guess I should be clear about the idle. It idles absolutely fine. Not too much fuel or anything, the idle problem is it wont idle below 1300-1400 rpms.

I'm taking the tb off today and going to check the FIAV and see if everything is gunked up or what not, figure it may be stuck open hence why the idle is so high. I must just block it off and deal with it, just have to hold the gas for abit after start up. So once we get it to idle at the RPMS it should, I can set the base timing and try another run. Hopefully that fixes the problem.

Hey Eagle, unfortunatley I haven't had any experience with a hks vpc. Form whay I hear, the idle is a common problem with those, and much like a Maf-t, you usually need an afc to get things right. I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's the only solid advice I can give you. Put it this way, if I run my car at a certain % across the board, it would never run right. The factory injector maps are quite a bit off once you step up to larger injectors. Even if you can get your afpr and vpc dialed in, you're still only setting a global point, and will need further tuning ability.

I would do an extensive boost leak test before jumping to any other conclusions if you haven't already, and make sure your idle switch and isc are working properly. Also, rich knock is not very common, so take care when setting your vpc. You really need to get/check your base timing, to make sure it's where you'd like it. Like I mentioned earlier, start at like 15psi or something lower to ease the tuning. 11 psi is gonna be pretty far off than the 18-20 I'm assuming you'll be wanting to run. If you're still knocking at 15psi and you're o2v are reading .94 or higher, you may have rich knock, but any lower readings than that I'd be skeptical about it being caused by an overly rich condition. I know every car veries with o2 readings, but .94 + is pretty safe to assume it's rich with a properly working o2 sensor.


I think your FAIV only affects idle when the car is warm. I would suspect your problem is coming from somewhere else. I don't hear many problems with them.


It's hard to give a more certain answer w/o knowing alot of varialbes that are unclear at this point. Try to get the idle where it should be, and log another run with the parameters I mentioned in a previous post, and we'll go from there. Let us know, best of luck.

- Dan

 

[Eagle 5]

thats the problem, when the car is warm, the idle wont go below 1300-1400 rpms. the FIAV is supposed to raise idle when its cold then when it warms up it should let idle decrease back down to whatever it is set at. Im going to just block off the FIAV as its just one more thing I wont have to worry about. I know that when its cold out Ill have to give it some gas for a bit to keep the idle up while it warms up but thats not a problem.

ill do another log after I get the idle set where it should be. There is no fuel problem with it idling, just getting it to idle where it should is the problem and not whether it has trouble idling. It idles great, just idles at 1400 rpms.

oh and when it frist starts up, it idles around 1100 or so, and only when its warm or it has been reved up does the idle go up.

 

[red93tsi]

check to make sure your idle switch is working properly

 

[Eagle 5]

check to make sure your idle switch is working properly

well after i blocked off the FIAV nothing changed. still idled high, so loosened the idle swtich and starting turning it out, as i did that the idle started dropping down. when i had the tb off and i put it up to a light i could see a nice ring around the tb. So i think too much air is getting around the tb plate. the tp at idle is 11%, after i slowly backed it out some i think it went down to around 9% and i did get the idle to be around 800, however it did not like to be too steady. wanted to fluctuate up and down.

so im mostly positive my problem is the idle switch doesnt let the plate close enough, but im not sure how to make the switch move out some without loosening the nut for it. So how does one adjust the idle swtich? if i can move that then I can get the car to idle lower but just need to make it idle low and stay there. i did have idling right for a few minutes, but it died not long after that. may be too rich for that low of idle.

either way, i did get the base timing set while it was idling around 750. it would kind of go between 700 and 1000 or so. but when it was around 750ish - 800, the base idle was 5 degress. had to turn the cam sensor a decent amount.

took it out after that and did 2 2nd gear pulls (didnt have time to go out to do a 3rd gear pull) and on the first run knock went to 5 and went down. so didnt go above 5. the 2nd pull knock hit 1 count a couple times but never went higher. i also was only logging a few parameters so it had more data points. So I'm fairly certain my timing is fixed and correct now. Just need to figure out how to adjust the idle switch and get it to idle correctly. id be happy if i can get it down to around 900-1000 instead of 1400.

 

[red93tsi]

well after i blocked off the FIAV nothing changed. still idled high, so loosened the idle swtich and starting turning it out, as i did that the idle started dropping down. when i had the tb off and i put it up to a light i could see a nice ring around the tb. So i think too much air is getting around the tb plate. the tp at idle is 11%, after i slowly backed it out some i think it went down to around 9% and i did get the idle to be around 800, however it did not like to be too steady. wanted to fluctuate up and down.

so im mostly positive my problem is the idle switch doesnt let the plate close enough, but im not sure how to make the switch move out some without loosening the nut for it. So how does one adjust the idle swtich? if i can move that then I can get the car to idle lower but just need to make it idle low and stay there. i did have idling right for a few minutes, but it died not long after that. may be too rich for that low of idle.

either way, i did get the base timing set while it was idling around 750. it would kind of go between 700 and 1000 or so. but when it was around 750ish - 800, the base idle was 5 degress. had to turn the cam sensor a decent amount.

took it out after that and did 2 2nd gear pulls (didnt have time to go out to do a 3rd gear pull) and on the first run knock went to 5 and went down. so didnt go above 5. the 2nd pull knock hit 1 count a couple times but never went higher. i also was only logging a few parameters so it had more data points. So I'm fairly certain my timing is fixed and correct now. Just need to figure out how to adjust the idle switch and get it to idle correctly. id be happy if i can get it down to around 900-1000 instead of 1400.

Eaqle, the tps should read from ruffly 8-12% at idle, it's fine! You want to make sure it reads 100% at WOT, and then the idle is in the 10% range +/- 2%. You should really get it idling at 750rpm, fully warm, with the ecu's timing control disabled for setting the timing properly. You had minimal knock, which is more than likely a rich condition at WOT. Have you tested your isc motor coils at all? A quick generic test is to disconnect the idle switch with the car idling and fully warmed up to see if the idle changes. If the idle does not very, your isc motor is probably shot. Ever have any surging issues?

 

[Eagle 5]

Eaqle, the tps should read from ruffly 8-12% at idle, it's fine! You want to make sure it reads 100% at WOT, and then the idle is in the 10% range +/- 2%. You should really get it idling at 750rpm, fully warm, with the ecu's timing control disabled for setting the timing properly. You had minimal knock, which is more than likely a rich condition at WOT. Have you tested your isc motor coils at all? A quick generic test is to disconnect the idle switch with the car idling and fully warmed up to see if the idle changes. If the idle does not very, your isc motor is probably shot. Ever have any surging issues?

I had surging issues originally but it rarely does it anymore. TPS at idle is 11%. biss screw is all the way in, if i start backing it out the car will start surging. The ISC reads 0 steps at idle. So its all the way in, biss screw all the way in, FIAV blocked off. SO air is only going around the Throttle plate. which as said before you can see light all around it. Once i started screwing the idle switch out so the plate could close more the idle started dropping down. WE think that we need to back it out some (adjust it, which we have no idea how ) then back the biss screw out a little bit and let the isc do its bit of work.

But ya, when we took the idle switch thing off it didnt do anything, plus the motor reads 0 steps at idle so cant close anymore.

 

[red93tsi]

I had surging issues originally but it rarely does it anymore. TPS at idle is 11%. biss screw is all the way in, if i start backing it out the car will start surging. The ISC reads 0 steps at idle. So its all the way in, biss screw all the way in, FIAV blocked off. SO air is only going around the Throttle plate. which as said before you can see light all around it. Once i started screwing the idle switch out so the plate could close more the idle started dropping down. WE think that we need to back it out some (adjust it, which we have no idea how ) then back the biss screw out a little bit and let the isc do its bit of work.

But ya, when we took the idle switch thing off it didnt do anything, plus the motor reads 0 steps at idle so cant close anymore.

Ahhh, your isc motor is shot. It's not in a circuit with the ecu. The ecu tells it what to do, but has no idea if it really is doing what it's supposed to or not. That would also account for the idle surge when you back off your biss. The motor is stuck in an open position, the ecu realizes there is too much air entering the intake mani, so it tells the isc motor to go to fully closed, but it's not responding due to a short circuit in one of the 4 pathways to the coils. I'd say I'm 95% positive this is the cause of your idle problems. If you're not sure how to test the coils, ask here or find me on Mach V forums. I would not touch the tps at all, or the idle switch, and definatley avoid messing with the tb shaft until you can verify that the isc is working in good order, which I highly doubt it is. BTW the tb shaft/butterfly valve is kind of a PITA to reassemble.


Let me know

- Dan