can I replace head studs without pulling head

[clone]

fellow DSM'er claims I can pull & replace the head studs without disturbing the head or gasket..... is this possible .... even recommended?

mentioned they permitted the use of an allen key.

 

[dacowgod]

I put ARP head studs in a customers car at an Exxon on the side of the freeway about 3 weeks ago... ..I was coming up to dyno tune his car and ended up stripping 4th gear in mine on the way up..

Needless to say he still had to make his dyno appointment so I had him meet me where I broke down... I swapped in the head studs and street tuned the car so he could make his dyno appointment and just make a couple pulls to see where he stood..

Anyways i suppose I am just reiterating the fact that its fairly simple and as long as you do it one at a time it will be just fine... IF you're doing it hot like i did just remember to make sure you have relieved the coolant pressure to be sure it does not relieve itself when you loosen up the head bolts ....that is the only problem I could imagine would arise.

Ricky

 

[BoostedBeater]

I was told to put the studs in and torque them to spec then loosen the torque etc etc five times to stretch the threads... Is that the same as putting them in hand tight or is that statement just incorrect?

you do not torque the studs, you torque the nuts that go on the studs

 

[Sandman817]

just follow ARP's directions that they include with the studs and use the arp lube they include.

 

[airmail96]

Sorry to bring this back from the dead but I just wanted to make sure do you fully torque the the nut all the way down before moving to the next one or is it ok to torque it to 30 move to the next on and then retorque them all at the end?

 

[dsmcurse]

Replace the stock head bolts with upgraded ARPs one at a time, change them one at a time in perfect sequence, tourqe each ARP stud down to the max before moving to the next. I recomend using the supplied moly-lube and tighten 'em tight to 110 foot pounds

 

[lasthope05]

Stick to the recommemded 85-90ft lbs final torque spec with the moly lube.

There's no point in stretching the headstuds more then necessary, not to mention the more you torque the studs the more distortion your cylinder head sees.

 

[dsmcurse]

Stick to the recommemded 85-90ft lbs final torque spec with the moly lube.

There's no point in stretching the headstuds more then necessary, not to mention the more you torque the studs the more distortion your cylinder head sees.

And what's your definition of high boost my friend? 17psi? I'm a career mechanic of over 10years and have been a DSM owner for over 12years now, and as a proud member of the 600 horespower club, I know what it takes, I know what works and what don't. TRUST ME, if you set the ARP's to only 85 foot pounds you will indeed lift the head under high boost.

What turbo do you use for your "high boost" lasthope? 14b? Maybe 16g? Set at like 18psi? . Try a big 'ol 68mm turbo at 38-40psi boost there jr. I'm currently 650awhp and I have my ARP's at 120 foot pounds tight (with nice CornWell Tools digital wrench) call me greedy, but it works, 650AWHP and still climbin and its all on the same head and gasket and hardware and I haven't pulled the head not once since I put it all together.

ARP's set at 85 are pointless. Trust me kids, use a trust worthy wrench and tighten 'em TIGHT to 110

 

[lasthope05]

And what's your definition of high boost my friend? 17psi? I'm a career mechanic of over 10years and have been a DSM owner for over 12years now, and as a proud member of the 600 horespower club, I know what it takes, I know what works and what don't. TRUST ME, if you set the ARP's to only 85 foot pounds you will indeed lift the head under high boost.

What turbo do you use for your "high boost" lasthope? 14b? Maybe 16g? Set at like 18psi? . Try a big 'ol 68mm turbo at 38-40psi boost there jr. I'm currently 650awhp and I have my ARP's at 120 foot pounds tight (with nice CornWell Tools digital wrench) call me greedy, but it works, 650AWHP and still climbin and its all on the same head and gasket and hardware and I haven't pulled the head not once since I put it all together.

ARP's set at 85 are pointless. Trust me kids, use a trust worthy wrench and tighten 'em TIGHT to 110

Come off your high horse. Youre not all big and bad as you seem to think you are. Ive been at over 600whp for years now going to over 850 soon with the 3794hta I picked up last month. I've been in the game almost as long a you and am also a mechanic.

I'm driving now so i can type much but I'll get more into it later.

(who pissed in your cheerios this morning?)

 

[coupe_nasty]

Just did this to mine the other night one at a time. Torqued to 90ft/lbs. Ready to hit the dyno

 

[Roberti 2G]

Doesnt ARP only recommend 80 ft/lbs for 2g studs with moly lube? Everyone is saying 90 some even said higher.

 

[dsmcurse]

Listen, I wasn't trying to start a pissing match or nothing, not talkin S or anything like that. Just from my own personal experience combined with friends experiences and customer cars, I've seen what works, and I've seen what doesn't work. Little off topic, but here's one example. Earlier this year I bought a very clean SW20 (2nd gen Toyota MR2 turbo) for a fair price due to engine failure. When I pulled the engine and tore it down for rebuild, I was surprised to see name brand head bolts. Out of quriosity I used the tourqe wrench to unscrew a few head nuts, kept bumpin the tourqe wrench to see where it would be ya know? They were WAY under tight! No wonder...

If a guy is gonna upgrade to ARPs as a insurance policy cause he plans to run some decent boost, id plenty recomend changing em one at a time in sequence. Yes, tighten them tighter than by the book, it'll be fine. I'm over 600hp, no head problems, have ARPs set to 120 run 40psi on a hx52 to kick a$$ when needed, its over 650awhp then man, its fine. My best friend Alex (boostdriven) is knockin on the 700hp door right now and he has no head issues at all, guess what? 120 foot pounds. Alex's friend Cody (1st gen guy) does indeed clear 700whp and he too has head studs set at 120.

Call up TMZ Tranny, talk to Tim Zimmerman the main guy, he has a 1000awhp 4G63 and ask him about how much boost he runs and ask him about lifting the head? Go ahead, ask? Maybe we'll private message him and get him to chime in on this thread? He clears over a thousand ponies man and he tightens his head bolts so flippin tight the ARP washers start to squish into the soft aluiminum head. There's soppossed to be a ultra top secret recipe coming out soon to off set this problem.

The directions say finger tight, tourqe in sequence, x-amount of foot pounds, yada yada yada. The truth is, you can be more aggressive than what the directions say and it'll do you more justice in most cases. Example, I don't put the studs in by finger tight only, I put a lil allen head bit in my little bit socket wrench and screw the studs in with a little bit of wrist power (make sure the bolt holes in the block got cleaned out perfect clean befor starting duh). After the studs are screwed in with a lil tiny bit of wrist power I tighten the upper nut/washer in sequence and no matter what at least go to 100. Have done this with great results on dozens of DSMs. Not much power or boost and ya know its gonna be a 280-350ish power car, 100 on the head bolts seems fine. Wanna start pushin to the 5 and 6 hundred club? Well, to prevent head lift and pushin coolant due to exhaust pressure squeezing in, you must put the cylinder head on LOCK DOWN! 115ish to 120ish on new ARP's all day long, no flippin problem guys. Have had awesome results with this method

 

[mits3kgt320tt]

Just an idea, no one get offended. I would call the manufacturer, be it ARP or whomever, tell them your scenario and let them advise you. Seems much more logical than taking advice from here if someone were to be that worried. On here we have people that have torqued to 85 ft lbs, I'm sure it worked on multiple occasions and multiple cars. We also have people that have torqued to 120 (little high in my opinion) but it apparently has worked on multiple occasions as well. Just call the people that make them and deal with your exact product hundreds of times a day. I've used Magnus studs to the recommended 85-90 and have seemingly had no issues.

 

[dsmcurse]

Ok, so your new aftermarket head-hardware say tighten to 90, and if you tighten it only ten foot pounds more.... than what??? Ya get it? Then what? Fom a recomended 90, and you tighten it to 100. Then what? Your bolts are not gonna break, they are not gonna stretch, the headgasket isn't gonna squish out like putty, all that's gonna happen is you have extra retaining force fighting on your side working for you when trying to keep the cylinder head secured to the block at 38 pounds of boost pressure. Go from a recomended 90 to extra insurance policy 100, there is no ill side effects guys! Trust me, to each his own tho. Duh. If it works for you, great, but like I earlier said, you can be a lil more aggressiive with the tourqe wrench than what the directions say. There is no ill side effect from increasing the tourqe some (to a reasonable limit of course)

 

[airmail96]

Hey thank you for answering my question on replacing the studs. I had one more question, what is the perfect sequence? Outside to the middle, or middle to the outside?

 

[dsmcurse]

Its in the chilton book (mitsubishi bible)

Off the top of my head I think its like this (please double verify)



9 3 1. 5. 7

8 6 2. 4. 10

 

[u2slow]

I`m surprised that a 1000hp car uses standard ARP`s...and torqued to 110..wow. Tightening beyond factory specs didn`t work for me. The head gasket also makes a difference.

After having a head lifting incident, I tried tightening beyond factory specs. It happened again. After that, I had many discussions with a lot of the elite builders and decided to use A1 studs with felpro gasket at factory recommended torque. No more head lifting problems. Car ran 8.9s. I was repeatedly told the head would distort when overtightened. This was with a 1g head.

The FSM recommends removing headbolts from the outside bolts to the inner. It also recommends replacing them from the inside bolts to he outer(reverse order). This is when you`re replacing the head. I wouldn`t think it makes much difference when replacing headstuds one at a time.

 

[pb_evil]

Yes you can replace without pulling head. Just do one at a time.

agreed depending on the condition of the head gasket, i swapped stock studs to arp,s on a new motor just do it one at a time and torque them down CORRECTLY

outside in going from opposite side ex, top right corner to bottom left corner to bottom right to top left so on and so fourth

 

[myblackhatch]

Replace the stock head bolts with upgraded ARPs one at a time, change them one at a time in perfect sequence, tourqe each ARP stud down to the max before moving to the next. I recomend using the supplied moly-lube and tighten 'em tight to 110 foot pounds

Learned something new. Didnt know you could do it this way.

 

[lasthope05]

Listen, I wasn't trying to start a pissing match or nothing, not talkin S or anything like that. Just from my own personal experience combined with friends experiences and customer cars, I've seen what works, and I've seen what doesn't work. Little off topic, but here's one example. Earlier this year I bought a very clean SW20 (2nd gen Toyota MR2 turbo) for a fair price due to engine failure. When I pulled the engine and tore it down for rebuild, I was surprised to see name brand head bolts. Out of quriosity I used the tourqe wrench to unscrew a few head nuts, kept bumpin the tourqe wrench to see where it would be ya know? They were WAY under tight! No wonder...

If a guy is gonna upgrade to ARPs as a insurance policy cause he plans to run some decent boost, id plenty recomend changing em one at a time in sequence. Yes, tighten them tighter than by the book, it'll be fine. I'm over 600hp, no head problems, have ARPs set to 120 run 40psi on a hx52 to kick a$$ when needed, its over 650awhp then man, its fine. My best friend Alex (boostdriven) is knockin on the 700hp door right now and he has no head issues at all, guess what? 120 foot pounds. Alex's friend Cody (1st gen guy) does indeed clear 700whp and he too has head studs set at 120.

Call up TMZ Tranny, talk to Tim Zimmerman the main guy, he has a 1000awhp 4G63 and ask him about how much boost he runs and ask him about lifting the head? Go ahead, ask? Maybe we'll private message him and get him to chime in on this thread? He clears over a thousand ponies man and he tightens his head bolts so flippin tight the ARP washers start to squish into the soft aluiminum head. There's soppossed to be a ultra top secret recipe coming out soon to off set this problem.

The directions say finger tight, tourqe in sequence, x-amount of foot pounds, yada yada yada. The truth is, you can be more aggressive than what the directions say and it'll do you more justice in most cases. Example, I don't put the studs in by finger tight only, I put a lil allen head bit in my little bit socket wrench and screw the studs in with a little bit of wrist power (make sure the bolt holes in the block got cleaned out perfect clean befor starting duh). After the studs are screwed in with a lil tiny bit of wrist power I tighten the upper nut/washer in sequence and no matter what at least go to 100. Have done this with great results on dozens of DSMs. Not much power or boost and ya know its gonna be a 280-350ish power car, 100 on the head bolts seems fine. Wanna start pushin to the 5 and 6 hundred club? Well, to prevent head lift and pushin coolant due to exhaust pressure squeezing in, you must put the cylinder head on LOCK DOWN! 115ish to 120ish on new ARP's all day long, no flippin problem guys. Have had awesome results with this method

Late reply, but I totally forgot about this thread.
Just because you and a few people you know have no problems with tightening the studs way over manufacturers recommended torque specs, does not make it correct nor would it work 100% for him. All motors are built, tuned, and ran differently. By blindly suggesting your recommendations of over tightening the bolts to your specs with the way your motor is tuned is wrong and outright dangerous.

Correct me if I am wrong but are you not running pump gas with meth injection? It might work for your specific application and your friends but not for the broad general audience. Cylinder pressures play a big role stretching the studs and lifting the head. With the amount of boost you are running on pump gas and meth it is easy to see you are running low timing and your particular engine is not seeing high cylinder pressures. I don’t want to go into speculations, but if you are running standard arps and low timing with meth injection, I wouldn’t be surprised you having any problems lifting. We have been doing it way before H11 tool steel was getting big. Tuning is a big part of why you haven’t had much problems(thanks to Boostdriven) and what you fail to realize is most dsmers tune, or atleast try to tune their own motors, and that is where the problems arise. Novice tuners either run too much timing, cannot calibrate VE tables, having knocking/detonation issues, lean/rich…etc.

Anyways, to get back on topic of the studs, the studs do stretch with torque and cylinder pressures. I don’t know why you are saying they don’t. They are similar to springs in were they stretch and absorb shock from compression of boost and accompanying cylinder pressures. The ARPs are made with the specific torque to create a buffer zone to account for the pressure spikes(excessive timing, dentontion/knock) and such associated with modifying performance engines. Yes you can tighten the nuts more and add slightly more clamping force but you are drastically reducing that buffer zone and reaching the yield point of the studs, by a which point the studs would be useless.

The recommended specs for 6 bolts are 90ft lbs and 80ft lbs for the 7 bolts. You are going 20-30ft lbs over for 6 bolts and 30-40ft lbs for 7 bolts which sounds extremely excessive to me. Especially if they are the standard 8740 and you don’t know what type of fuel the person is using and how the motor is being tuned.

Any ways, you bring Tim Z. into the discussion about him using higher than normal torque values as if it brings any merit to you. I highly doubt he is running standard ARPs. In fact, I am sure he knows the basic understanding of the type of material his studs are made of and its yield strength and limits which allows him to run what he does. If fact, you can ask him yourself to join in on this discussion as I would like to hear what he has to say.

When I give advice to people, I stay on the safe side and not what particularly works for me and a select few. I don’t want my advice to be the one that causes an engine failure or the person to waste money because im not paying for their bill just because they broke something by taking my advice.

 

[cliffkemp]

I rebuilt my laser and tightened my L19s to 135 with a MLS gasket and have had no issues with the car since. It lifted the head with standard ARPs and locked a stud and nut together in the process. Have ran 25psi and around 400 whp (according to dsmlink) and no issues at all.

Just my 2 cents worth. Tq'ed down in 4 steps. Car runs good but, stupid oil leak at the cooler..... grrr.

 

[spydergst1997]

you can do it with no problems just make sure you do it in sequence and one at a time