CAM alternatives to HKS?

[sqhopeful]

hey guys,

I am looking for a some alternatives to hKS cams. I am lloking for somethgin simaliar to the 272 combo, but for less then $550. regrinds are not something I am interested in becasue i do not want to have shim them, looking for something to "drop in"

any sugestions would be greatly appreciated.....

KC

 

[hostile]

As far as I know HKS is the only true drop in cam on the market.

Crowers and Web cams need to be degreed because they are not always machined the same as stock cams.

The comp cams are smaller than the hks cams so nobody ever talks about them.

So at the least you will need cam gears for other brands of cams... for HKS cams you wont.

Just save up the extra cash and buy the HKS cams... it will save you money in the long run.

 

[GRNDSM]

Lets see, on one had you have HK$ cams for around $600. On another hand you have “other cams” for $450-$500. To make the other cams work well, you will need the adjustable cam sprocket $200-$400. Then you will need to spend at least 1 hour on a dyno to dial them in, that is another $100. When it is all said and done, you might be able to correct improperly indexed dowel pin, but sprocket will not help you with lobe to lobe variations, which are also present in “other” cams.

So instead of paying ~$600 in the first place, you will pay $750-$1000. And possibly not even have cams as god as HKS… How is that for savings?

There are a lot of places where you can save money by going with cheaper brands, cams do not fall into that category…

Leon
RR

 

[sqhopeful]

thanks boys, looks like the HKS is the way to go, when i looked at the venders, no one mentioned that the crower and web cams required adjustable cam gears, obviously that negates any savings by boing with those brands.

Maybe I will look fro some used hks cams, again, thanks for your help

 

[dsmturboawd]

well, , they aren't "required".

 

[sqhopeful]

. true, could at least say "recommended"

 

[Rick@AP]

The JUN cams are also "direct drop ins" as well and feature more lift than the HKS cams. The Crane cams may be a direct drop in as well. If they would distribute the things we could find out.

If you guys are paying $450-$500 for a Web, Crower, Comp, etc and $200-$400 on cam gears you are over paying. The cost of a set of cams from any of these companies along with the cam gears should come pretty close to being equal, to slightly more.

While many people have run HKS cams striaght up, you really should degree them to be on the safe side to make absolutely sure your timing events are accurate. HKS messes things up once and awhile as well.

Also, as a side note, I've been told that HKS is on national backup on 272 cams right now.

 

[GRNDSM]

>The JUN cams are also "direct drop ins" as well and feature more lift than the HKS cams.

I am sure that Jun makes some really nice cams, but aren’t they around $800-$1000?

>Also, as a side note, I've been told that HKS is on national backup on 272 cams right now.

That is a big problem with HKS cams… They tend to go into “back order” mode a bit too often. I whish there was a good alternative to HKS cams, I just haven’t seen one…

Leon
RR

 

[anoldsman]

The comp cams are smaller than the hks cams so nobody ever talks about them.

Lets see, on one had you have HK$ cams for around $600. On another hand you have “other cams” for $450-$500. To make the other cams work well, you will need the adjustable cam sprocket $200-$400. Then you will need to spend at least 1 hour on a dyno to dial them in, that is another $100. When it is all said and done, you might be able to correct improperly indexed dowel pin, but sprocket will not help you with lobe to lobe variations, which are also present in “other” cams.

Moderator, I work at COMP so if this is out of line just let me know. We are currently selling two sets of cams for the 4G63. The 101100 is 204 @ 0.050" valve lift, and 0.407"/0.391" vs. HKS 264 which is 203 @ 0.050" valve lift, 0.406"/0.386". The 101200 is 212 @ 0.050" valve lift, and 0.411"/0.395" vs. HKS 272 which is 213 @ 0.050" valve lift, 0.406"/0.386". The centerlines, measured at the maximum lift are the same as the HKS grinds. The centerlines differ at 0.050" and at the seat because of profile differences. They are ground on CNC equipment and are very accurate and repeatable. I do not see any reason to down grade all non HKS camshafts just because some are made incorrectly. I do not want to sound like I am complaining. However, I am very proud of these camshafts and of our ability to manufacture them accurately.

Chris

 

[Rick@AP]

I am sure that Jun makes some really nice cams, but aren’t they around $800-$1000?

Only if you buy them directly from JUN. There are as always a couple of shops out there that will whore them out at wholesale or below. On avg. you should expect to pay the same to slightly more than the HKS cams.

I am very proud of these camshafts and of our ability to manufacture them accurately.

Please relay to your company that if they are serious about marketing to the DSM world they should really consider putting the cams out to some of the well known vendors for independant testing. If the results are as good as what's shown on the specs you gave, and they are gound on index, the cams will become an almost instant hit. But, without dyno data to back up what we can only do bench racing on paper there probably won't be much of a demand for the cams.

 

[anoldsman]

Please relay to your company that if they are serious about marketing to the DSM world they should really consider putting the cams out to some of the well known vendors for independant testing. If the results are as good as what's shown on the specs you gave, and they are gound on index, the cams will become an almost instant hit. But, without dyno data to back up what we can only do bench racing on paper there probably won't be much of a demand for the cams.

Thanks for the reply. They are being tested but I will hold off on the results until the vendor completes all of the tests. It looks very promising but, I do not want to put the vendor in a bind without the data in front of me. I'll let y'all, sorry the southerner in me slipped out, know as soon as I can.

Chris

 

[jdmawd]

Extreme Motorsports keeps hks cams in stock even when they are on backorder other places.

 

[dsmturboawd]

cripe, theyre expensive there.

 

[GRNDSM]

>Moderator, I work at COMP so if this is out of line just let me know. We are currently
>selling two sets of cams for the 4G63.

To be perfectly honest, I know NOTHING about 4G63 CAMP cams. But I have seen what was supposed to be copies of HKS 264 cams made by “other US manufactures” and their idle was considerably worse. People have long known about timing sprocket key indexing issue, but lobe to lobe discrepancy was more of a new thing and that is not something that can be corrected by adjustable sprockets.

Rick is right, you have to get some well known DSMer’s/shops to use and test them. Otherwise, rightfully or not, you will fall victims to the bad reputation that earlier US cam manufacturers have earned.

Leon
RR

 

[Groomz]

Just a quick newb question: Why does HKS not advertise their duration @ 0.050? Most other camshaft companies do, and this is the first time I have seen the HKS duration @ 0.050 inches. I am interested in the Comp Cams alternative, but would like to see some real world testing also.

P.S. Chris:

Send me a set pro bono, I'll let you know how they perform.

 

[hostile]

I think HKS stuff is made in japan. They think in metric, like most of the world.

 

[anoldsman]

P.S. Chris: Send me a set pro bono, I'll let you know how they perform.

Ahh if I only had a nickel....

I think HKS stuff is made in Japan. They think in metric, like most of the world

Exactly, the HKS grinds are specified at 1mm (.039") and 0mm (I believe that it is actually .04mm or 0.0016") on their cam cards.


Chris

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by anoldsman
Moderator, I work at COMP so if this is out of line just let me know. We are currently selling two sets of cams for the 4G63. The 101100 is 204 @ 0.050" valve lift, and 0.407"/0.391" vs. HKS 264 which is 203 @ 0.050" valve lift, 0.406"/0.386". The 101200 is 212 @ 0.050" valve lift, and 0.411"/0.395" vs. HKS 272 which is 213 @ 0.050" valve lift, 0.406"/0.386". The centerlines, measured at the maximum lift are the same as the HKS grinds. The centerlines differ at 0.050" and at the seat because of profile differences. They are ground on CNC equipment and are very accurate and repeatable. I do not see any reason to down grade all non HKS camshafts just because some are made incorrectly. I do not want to sound like I am complaining. However, I am very proud of these camshafts and of our ability to manufacture them accurately.

Chris

You need to make a more agressive cam than either the 101200 or the 272's for bigger engines. Preferably the exhaust cams first. I can see some need for a more agressive intake cam than even the 272 in some instances but I believe their is even more call for a bit more duration on stroker motors on the exhaust side.

BTW if I send specs can you grind them to match?

 

[MNGSX]

I need to know this at .050" lift for the 101200's I want to enter it accurately into my engine sim software. Unless you can just send me a cam file.

Degrees
IVO: Intake valve open
IVC: Intake valve closed

EVO: Exhaust Valve open
EVC: Exhaust Valve closed

You use the extreme energy roller cam lobe profile on the 4g63 cams right?

As for the actual duration I'm looking for I'm sure it will look like some of your more agressive turbo and blower cams for SBC's.

 

[anoldsman]

I need to know this at .050" lift for the 101200's I want to enter it accurately into my engine sim software. Unless you can just send me a cam file.

Degrees
IVO: Intake valve open 2 deg BTDC
IVC: Intake valve closed 22 deg ABDC

EVO: Exhaust Valve open 39 deg BBDC
EVC: Exhaust Valve closed -15 deg ATDC

You use the extreme energy roller cam lobe profile on the 4g63 cams right? It is in the Extreme Energy Family but it is specifically designed for the 4G63 geometry.

As for the actual duration I'm looking for I'm sure it will look like some of your more agressive turbo and blower cams for SBC's

At .1mm 0.004" valve lift
Degrees
IVO: Intake valve open 22 deg BTDC
IVC: Intake valve closed 49 deg ABDC

EVO: Exhaust Valve open 62 deg BBDC
EVC: Exhaust Valve closed 9 deg ATDC

I hope that this helps.

Chris

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by anoldsman
Degrees
IVO: Intake valve open 2 deg BTDC
IVC: Intake valve closed 22 deg ABDC

EVO: Exhaust Valve open 39 deg BBDC
EVC: Exhaust Valve closed -15 deg ATDC

Something is'nt right

I enter that in and I only get...

204 degrees of duration at .050

a 108.5* centerline

and -13* overlap.

I think those specs are for your 204 cams the 101100's

An IVO (BTDC) of 2* and a IVC (ABDC) of 30* amounts to 212 degrees at .050" lift.

An EVO (BBDC) of 39* with a EVC (ATDC) of -7* amounts to 212 degrees duration at .050" lift.

Is that a good guess for the 212* at .050 or did you open the valves sooner too?

 

[anoldsman]

I am sorry for that. Those specs are for the 101100. The following are for the 101200:

At 0.050" valve lift
Degrees
IVO: Intake valve open 7 deg BTDC
IVC: Intake valve closed 25 deg ABDC

EVO: Exhaust Valve open 42 deg BBDC
EVC: Exhaust Valve closed -10 deg ATDC

At .1mm 0.004" valve lift
Degrees
IVO: Intake valve open 27 deg BTDC
IVC: Intake valve closed 52 deg ABDC

EVO: Exhaust Valve open 65 deg BBDC
EVC: Exhaust Valve closed 14 deg ATDC

Chris

 

[jltcat]

we (Jay's Performance) purchased a pair of Comp Cams "101100 cams" and were very impressed with the profile. They look better than the HKS because of the lobe design. We'll soon see...

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Originally posted by GRNDSM
>Moderator, I work at COMP so if this is out of line just let me know. We are currently
>selling two sets of cams for the 4G63.

To be perfectly honest, I know NOTHING about 4G63 CAMP cams. But I have seen what was supposed to be copies of HKS 264 cams made by “other US manufactures” and their idle was considerably worse. People have long known about timing sprocket key indexing issue, but lobe to lobe discrepancy was more of a new thing and that is not something that can be corrected by adjustable sprockets.

Rick is right, you have to get some well known DSMer’s/shops to use and test them. Otherwise, rightfully or not, you will fall victims to the bad reputation that earlier US cam manufacturers have earned.

Leon
RR

HKS cams have relatively mild lift. Another companies 264 will ussually have more overlap at the same durations. HKS max lift is I believe 10.8/10.2 on their 264's....while Jun's is around 11.5 on their 260's. That can screw up idle quite a bit.

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
HKS cams have relatively mild lift. Another companies 264 will ussually have more overlap at the same durations. HKS max lift is I believe 10.8/10.2 on their 264's....while Jun's is around 11.5 on their 260's. That can screw up idle quite a bit.

I have heard that higher lift equates to more torque. Is that true? I read this about OHV V8 engines.