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Built Head on 24psi, Only 300hp... Look at my Log

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Kingarex

10+ Year Contributor
95
0
Jul 3, 2012
Cheney, Washington
Hello All, this is my first post!!!!

So, I'm coming from the Honda world. I've built 4 Boosted Hondas, Sold 1 and Had 3 stolen... My last one was an 11 second Turbo LS/Vtec Type R... I spent $17,000 on engine work over 7 years and then a whopping $1,300 on Anti-Theft and it was stolen the next day like it was no big deal. Needless to say, I'm done. I went out and spent $7k on a 95 GSX and some good engine work.

Here are my mods:

2.0 L (7 bolt)Engine with 132k
-Evo 3 16G
-Magnaflow 3" exhaust (With Highflow Cat)
-FP turbo manifold
-Evo 3 intake manifold
-DSMlink v3 with cord
-ETS street fmic kit 3 inch
-Greddy BOV recirculated
-Injen intake CARB legal
-Walbro 255 lph fuel pump
-FIC 1050cc injectors
-AEM Fuel Rail
-Fuel Lab Pressure regulator
-S70 Throttle body
-HKS 264/272 Cams
-Manly Titanium valve springs/Retainers
-ARP Headstuds
-Cometic Headgasket (only 1k miles on it)
-ACT 2100 Clutch
-ACT 8lbs Flywheel
-AEM UEGO Wideband
-AEM Digital Boost

It was Dyno Tuned at English Racing in Portland and it only made 300 Whp on 22psi... This seems way too low to me. I have friends with similar builds well over 400hp and guys on stock builds with headstuds and a headgasket matching me... what's the deal?

I live in Spokane Washington, so when I got here I changed the altitude to 2300ft, added in the 15% drivetrain power loss, and weighed the car at the dump. (2,660lbs with myself and a passenger, and 3 Type R 10's in the trunk) it made roughly 321hp according to ECMlink

So here's a log i made in ECMlink V3. It's a 3rd gear pull on 22psi from 2k to around 7k (with brief surges up to 24psi) The car runs fine, it just feels lacking. I find it hard to believe that with a built head, full fuel system and double the boost, i'm only gaining 70hp... please advise..


(Also, you'll see that my throttle position is only at 87%.. It was all the way to the floor, how do I address this?
 

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  • 3rdGearrecircBOV.elg
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I'm not snapping at anybody. I'm approaching your comment directly. I assumed nothing, you outrightly stated that I shouldn't mess around with things that I know nothing about.

Keep in mind, I only said... Yet.

Blindly fallowing every suggestion for any Joe on here may or may not help you out. Their are a few good suggestions in the thread. But a few I don't 100% agree with either. like the TPS, it's a Better thing to do with it out of adjustment more then a few % to actualy check the TPS and throttle linkage. more so being this is a2g

Just my opinion though... .

Here is some info on the RIGHT way to adjust things

2G's critical adjustment is the Idle Position Switch that's part of the TPS.
The manual has you place a 0.0177" (0.45mm) feeler guage between the stop screw and the throttle pulley to open the butterfly and then adjust the TPS right to where the IPS (pins 3 and 4) switches from closed to open. Then they have you verify that the TPS (pin 2 and 4) reads between .4 and 1V while the feeler guage is still in place.
Anything in that range is ok as long as the IPS is adjusted correctly.
There is no way to adjust the TPS voltage independantly of the IPS on a 2G that I can see.

So basically

1. Loosen the 2 TPS screws.
2. Put a feeler gauge of .0177" under the stop screw
3. Turn the car to the ON position (start a log)
4. Rotate the TPS until pins 3 & 4 lose continuity (open) YOU can see this in al log under IdleSW
5. Verify that the voltage between pins 2 & 4 is .4-1 volt with the feeler still in. look at TPSvolt in a log
6. Tighten TPS bolts and remove feeler gauge.
7. Verify that the pins 3 & 4 have continuity (shorted) when the throttle is closed and don't have continuity (open) when you open the throttle slightly. (in a log 1 is a active state an 0 is inactive)

The whole purpose of adjusting the TPS on a 2G is to make sure that the Idle Position Switch inside the TPS is telling the ECU when the throttle is closed.

While we can do this with the ECMlink "tool" then simulate the Idleswitch I don't like too as it can cause problems as well.

Anyway, Make sure before doing this make sure that your throttle linkage is adjusted, so that it's not holding open the throttle an so that it can open the throttle all the way...
Not that anything is wrong with TPS adjust to address what's left after that ^

But a lot of people make suggestion to things on here that are a "fix" that can in the end turn cause more issues then they solve.

Not really directing that at anyone just in general as this happens a lot that I see... .
I have a wonderful attitude, in fact I have an attitude of humility and humbleness. I'm bending to the knowledge of those that know more. But being attacked by a random person both in my "assumption" of a garbage tune (that was in fact paid for and not recieved) as well as an attack at my efforts to correct that problem is not something that is going to bring out a happy, fun response.
As far as the "tune" I'm just saying that being you did not post a Dyno sheet and/or deal with ER yourself it would be best to. If at the time you had not talk to someone directly to do so before posting an do some fact checking :) They are local to me and I've never heard anything like what your saying. An I know myself would like the benefit of the doubt if someone was calling me out for something "I did" when I never even dealt with them to begin with.

This goes for most anything on the fourms though as far as doing your home work. Make sure you try to find out what you can on your own by seaching before asking simple questions. Not saying that people won't be happy to awsner or you shouldn't ask. Jsut that people are a lot more willing to help out if you have wrapped your head around what your dealing with first a bit. and don't ask the "why can't I vent my BOV" type questions... .

I'm not sure you had/have a huge problem right now, just wanting more power then what your at there are some steps obviously to take. It's important to keep in mind there are a lot of ways to "fry a fish" so to speak.

Just, because things don't look like what people think they should look some way doesn't they think they should mean the way it is "wrong" or won't work so to say. there are a few things people get caught up with "doing it the Ecmlink way" this is the main reason I say anything of this.
If you have a way to teach me something, please, by all means, write it up. I'll absolutely listen to you quietly, and try to apply those teachings. Like I said, I'm not proud, or cocky in any way. I'm fully aware that i'm lacking the knowledge needed to fully tune. So i'm hitting up ECMlink.com for video's and forums, as well as friends in town and obviously this website.

I don't want this thread to turn into a fight. So my apologies to all and lets get back on track!!!
Being you out right said you will listen (as a lot of people either don't listen to perfectly good advice an only like to address what. They think is the problem) I may try to look over All your logs an any changes you made an shoot you some help if I have some free time today later. ;)

I DO have a few things I'd like to actually add to the thread to Actually Help at this point jsut not the free time to say more then I have already. gotta run... .

EDIT

Oh the Comment on setting the FUEL table back to stock I dis-agree if anything just change for now the 11.5 values to something closer to the 10.8-11:1 range (if trying to re-dial things in) an only if you hitting your targets with the settigns you. Have an while looking a log comparing your target AFR in DA to your actual AFR... Also, Being I happen to see you have a AEM wideband keep in mind that when you get the wideband logging that a lot of AEM gauges don't play nice with link. An the the drop downs for the right gauge don't always work... Mainly do to the FACT they really suck an have a lot of grounding issues IMO.(I'd recomend a Inovate LC-1) ... Though it't more common on 1g's from my experience an has to do with the inputs your using as well.

So you may need to "calibrate the w/b" by settign the gauge as a linerwideband output an changing the settiings in the logged value for it under " linerwideband" just as I said something to keep in mind when you get to that point.
 
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Ignore the fact that you're injectors say 775cc and you're running 1050cc injectors. Its normal to make adjustments like that when tuning and a good tuner will know this and it was adjusted for a reason. On vehicles that I've tuned, i've never used the suggested value for global. I always came up with something different.

300whp on a 16g on 91 octane and very conservative tuning sounds very good to me. It shows me that you have a lot of room left....with better gas.

Timing is being pulled because you're running a tad warm up top (with a tiny bit of knock, w hich is OK). I don't know what your AFRs are, but for pump gas, I'm sure ER made sure it was good. Other than that....there's not much more you can do for your tune being so limited on 91 octane.


for those complaining about having target AFR's match actual AFR's, and this and that......having it match up is nice and all...but it doesn't make your car run any better or faster. Each tuner has their own method, and in the end...you will have the same results or close to the same results. If he wants to use the sliders....then he will. If he wants to sit there and dial in all the DA tables, he will.....

Sure, on my car....my Afratioest matches my wideband, I don't use the fuel sliders or timing sliders if I dont have to, everything is dialed in and looks perfect..............HOWEVER....it took me a VERY long time to do so. How much is dyno tuning per hour nowadays?

There isn't a ton of knock, AFR's are good, boost is where you want it for the gas you're using. Looks tuned to me.


Also, the tuner is very limited to the method of tuning since you don't have boost and your wideband datalogged. They have to make a pull and watch the wideband in real time and keep their eyes on everything else.

I refuse to tune a car that is not datalogging wideband and boost, but thats just me.
 
Coolant temps are causing the ECU to pull some timing and on the DA (direct access) tables the most timing it is aiming for out the top is 5* advance, but because of the ~215* coolant temps it is pulling a degree or two of timing.

Detach the tables and follow your sweeps to try and smooth them out. For now your MaxOct Fuel table looks fine but if you are running lean as indicated by the UEGO try dumping some more fuel through those cells first..

If you are regularly only moving ~29-30lbs/min and you dyno'd out at ~300awhp you are pretty much where you should expect to be.

If you were moving ~35lbs/min and only seeing ~300 on a dyno jet and ~320 in link (with the correct settings for weight/gearing/etc) then I would be worried.

Ignore the fact that you're injectors say 775cc and you're running 1050cc injectors. Its normal to make adjustments like that when tuning and a good tuner will know this and it was adjusted for a reason. On vehicles that I've tuned, i've never used the suggested value for global. I always came up with something different.

300whp on a 16g on 91 octane and very conservative tuning sounds very good to me. It shows me that you have a lot of room left....with better gas.

Timing is being pulled because you're running a tad warm up top (with a tiny bit of knock, w hich is OK). I don't know what your AFRs are, but for pump gas, I'm sure ER made sure it was good. Other than that....there's not much more you can do for your tune being so limited on 91 octane.


for those complaining about having target AFR's match actual AFR's, and this and that......having it match up is nice and all...but it doesn't make your car run any better or faster. Each tuner has their own method, and in the end...you will have the same results or close to the same results. If he wants to use the sliders....then he will. If he wants to sit there and dial in all the DA tables, he will.....

Sure, on my car....my Afratioest matches my wideband, I don't use the fuel sliders or timing sliders if I dont have to, everything is dialed in and looks perfect..............HOWEVER....it took me a VERY long time to do so. How much is dyno tuning per hour nowadays?

There isn't a ton of knock, AFR's are good, boost is where you want it for the gas you're using. Looks tuned to me.


Also, the tuner is very limited to the method of tuning since you don't have boost and your wideband datalogged. They have to make a pull and watch the wideband in real time and keep their eyes on everything else.

I refuse to tune a car that is not datalogging wideband and boost, but thats just me.

Pretty much my sentiments on the matter. 300whp on 29-30lbs/min on pump witha 16G is right where you would want to be, especially with single digit advance out the top end.
 
I'm astonished to see that noone has seemed to mention to the OP that running <5 degrees of timing could make him torch his exhaust components without him even knowing it.

If you have to run such low timing just to keep knock at bay then you need to lower boost or use better fuel. One or the other, running super low timing is not the best solution to the problem.
 
Ok, So I bumped up the fuel maps. Now at WOT, i'm seeing between 10.8 to 11.4 Air Fuel on my Wideband (you'll have to take my word, I still haven't had time to wire it in)

I began slowly increasing the timing evenly across the board. I did this 4 separate times, on 4 separate pulls. Until the last pull (which showed minor knock) I'll attach that last pull.

It's idling better than ever, it's running strong and appears well in the safe range. The coolant is high, i'll correct that with a new radiator ASAP. I'm less concerned with the Horsepower, and more concerned with the safety and driveability now. I never accounted for the high compression honda setups, it makes sense now that 22psi seems so "weak" but everyone agrees that i'm where I should be power-wise so I will leave well enough alone.

Please review this short pull log and send me your thoughts.

Thanks bro's.

btw, I emptied all of the 91 out during a Car club cruise and filled up with 92. This log was made on 92 octane. That's the Highest octane Washington offers.
 

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From a quick look at that log... .IMHO, Your doing all it wrong... Sorry not what you want to hear... I know.

IMO, You shouldn't be adding timing or fuel with the sliders (yes it works) But there are better ways...as it is now that you have your global like that. Your target AFR is not even close to what it is in DA... .

Try, zeroing the timing sliders out and as said see what cells your hitting to change things...

Also your temps are high still yes... .

But, Have you checked base timing to be sure as suggested? You bumped timing up 3* with the sliders. But are only still seeing 4-5* advance still. Better safe then anything. Might try doign a pull before your seeing temps in the 220 range?

when I'm actually at 1050cc's @30psi
Where did you get the 30 psi from? not sure exactly what your saying there... .

As well, are you even sure what injectors are in the car? If you are setting things up for 1000cc injectors only to turn around an add 30% back across the board? it should tell you something is up... . Let alone the deadtime you have it set for FIC's? and the fact that you posting cut down 2gear or 3gear logs... Not a lot to go off of... . Aside from the fact it may have been set up like it was for a reason?

Make sure with your next log/post you can let everyone know what you have or haven't done as far as things like Checking base timing Ect... and everyhing else. If you post a log we can see what you do. But fill in everyone with the rest of the details... .:thumb: seems like your raising more questions then your getting answers to... .

Just FYI,
If things like that are not addressed from the get go or you say you haven't a few days later people tend to stop offering advice real quick if you not fallowing suggestions. :)
 
Damn... Just when I think i have it all figured out, 5 new things go awry.... *SIGH*

Ok, So.. I'm certain that they are FIC 1050cc Injectors. The 30psi refers to my fuel pressure at idle. (which is now 38psi) I wasn't aware there was another way to do the timing except pulling the maxoct tables and doing everything cell by cell (Which is how i've been pulling knock...) So should I reload some stock timing maps from like, an Evo 8, and go from there while keeping everything else how it is now?
 
Knowing his AFRs would help make that call (Re: Excessive EGT), but even then it would only be speculation.

It is only a speculation if you don't know/understand what is going on inside the combustion chamber when you lower timing that low (i.e. combustinon happens inside the exhaust manifold vs chamber).

Anyways, it seems he already has plenty of people helping him out. I wish someone could respond to my thread LOL
 
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