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Built Head on 24psi, Only 300hp... Look at my Log

Posted by Kingarex, Jul 13, 2012

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  1. Kingarex

    Kingarex Proven Member

    85
    0
    Joined Jul 3, 2012
    Cheney, Washington
    Hello All, this is my first post!!!!

    So, I'm coming from the Honda world. I've built 4 Boosted Hondas, Sold 1 and Had 3 stolen... My last one was an 11 second Turbo LS/Vtec Type R... I spent $17,000 on engine work over 7 years and then a whopping $1,300 on Anti-Theft and it was stolen the next day like it was no big deal. Needless to say, I'm done. I went out and spent $7k on a 95 GSX and some good engine work.

    Here are my mods:

    2.0 L (7 bolt)Engine with 132k
    -Evo 3 16G
    -Magnaflow 3" exhaust (With Highflow Cat)
    -FP turbo manifold
    -Evo 3 intake manifold
    -DSMlink v3 with cord
    -ETS street fmic kit 3 inch
    -Greddy BOV recirculated
    -Injen intake CARB legal
    -Walbro 255 lph fuel pump
    -FIC 1050cc injectors
    -AEM Fuel Rail
    -Fuel Lab Pressure regulator
    -S70 Throttle body
    -HKS 264/272 Cams
    -Manly Titanium valve springs/Retainers
    -ARP Headstuds
    -Cometic Headgasket (only 1k miles on it)
    -ACT 2100 Clutch
    -ACT 8lbs Flywheel
    -AEM UEGO Wideband
    -AEM Digital Boost

    It was Dyno Tuned at English Racing in Portland and it only made 300 Whp on 22psi... This seems way too low to me. I have friends with similar builds well over 400hp and guys on stock builds with headstuds and a headgasket matching me... what's the deal?

    I live in Spokane Washington, so when I got here I changed the altitude to 2300ft, added in the 15% drivetrain power loss, and weighed the car at the dump. (2,660lbs with myself and a passenger, and 3 Type R 10's in the trunk) it made roughly 321hp according to ECMlink

    So here's a log i made in ECMlink V3. It's a 3rd gear pull on 22psi from 2k to around 7k (with brief surges up to 24psi) The car runs fine, it just feels lacking. I find it hard to believe that with a built head, full fuel system and double the boost, i'm only gaining 70hp... please advise..


    (Also, you'll see that my throttle position is only at 87%.. It was all the way to the floor, how do I address this?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014
  2. LandSpeed-DSM

    LandSpeed-DSM Proven Member

    1,991
    65
    Joined Dec 5, 2011
    Chicago, Illinois
    Use the TPS Adjust feature.

    What fuel is this on? I see only 6.x degrees of timing out the top.

    There is no WB logged either.. AFRs? I see the DA table wants 11.5:1 but I have no way of really confirming that without a logged UEGO

    I was making the same airflow at the same boost on a 14B on my old Laser.

    Switch to E85, get aggressive on the timing, spike that E316G into the 30s and wind it out on those cams till it starts to choke.

    That should at least get you approaching low 400whp range

    Then again, maybe there was a reason the ER guys called it a day at ~300whp
     

    2K  0

    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    · 1G DSM
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  3. Kingarex

    Kingarex Proven Member

    85
    0
    Joined Jul 3, 2012
    Cheney, Washington
    I considered that, but I'm not sure how to "dial it in" Can you get a little more in-depth without going way over my head? I'm new to ECMlink, but experienced in Forced Induction.

    They tuned it on 91 octane (The highest available there, I'm running 91 in this fill up, but usually run 92)

    1st) I don't know what the abbreviation "DA" stands for.
    2nd) I don't know if the UEGO is wired up for logging and just not selected in ECMlink, or if it still needs wired in... but my gauge reads low to mid 11's under full boost.


    We only have one E85 pump in town and it's 45 miles from my house. So I can't do that. Would you mind teaching me how to "Get aggressive on the timing" in my experience (Honda) you retard it exponentially per pound of boost, is it different here? or are there specific values? and the 16g is working it's hardest. I have a Greddy Profec 2 and it's turned all the way up and she only makes 22psi with small spikes to 25psi max

    Could be, but I just had them add ARP studs and run a quick Dyno. They only bumped up the boost 1.5psi. And as a matter of fact, he said "you're getting boost creep" so they probably didn't even turn it up...
     
  4. asrdave

    asrdave Proven Member

    192
    1
    Joined Aug 6, 2008
    Bergenfield, New Jersey
    Go to ecmlink.com and go to the demos. Very informative stuff, it shows you how to do stuff step by step in video form.
     

    357  0

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    · 2G DSM
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  5. Kingarex

    Kingarex Proven Member

    85
    0
    Joined Jul 3, 2012
    Cheney, Washington
    Dang, that's awesome... So much to learn, and they make it so easy.. Big Thanks for that link. But I'm still looking for pointers from you seasoned tuners. Please keep up the opinions
     
  6. gusu

    gusu Proven Member

    1,370
    26
    Joined Sep 9, 2009
    Keizer, Oregon
    If you want a good tune ask for Lucas to tune it for you. He is a bit spendy as of lately but he is worth every cent. He makes miracles happen.

    My friend spent 650 for a few parts, a tune and three pulls. I don't know the part cost but i think it would have been in the 350 range for the tune and dyno.

    When I've seen huge numbers on a e3 its been 28ish psi, I've seen people run more boost, but I believe they were clipped at that point so unless yours is going past that may not be helpful. Lucas will help you get there if you give him a power goal. He is a awesome guy.
     
  7. RvlutionMtrsprt

    RvlutionMtrsprt Proven Member

    570
    24
    Joined Jan 15, 2005
    Eugene, Oregon
    Did you even read his post? The car was already tuned at ER.
     

    Street Build 957  0

    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
    manual · Galant VR-4
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  8. richard33

    richard33 Proven Member

    844
    15
    Joined Oct 25, 2009
    Ft Lauderdale, Florida
    300whp on a 16g with pump gas and weak timing seems about right actually. When I dynoed my car I made 280 on like 18lbs when I was on pump gas. Unfortunately with that bad gas you cant get too aggressive with the timing or boost. Check for boost leaks to find out why the boost wont go up also.
     

    3K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    9.752 @ 146.150 · 2G DSM
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  9. Kingarex

    Kingarex Proven Member

    85
    0
    Joined Jul 3, 2012
    Cheney, Washington
    First off, I'm beginning to think that ER didn't tune my car at all, I think they just added my headstuds and headgasket and did a dyno pull. I assumed a tune was included in dyno time, but i must be mistaken. Things are not very accurate for such a reputable place which tells me they didn't tune it.

    Also, to those of you reccomending that I have people tune it for me, thank you for your suggestions, but i'm trying to learn so I can be independent. I'm moving into the country and wont be able to drive 6 hours for a tune everytime I change something.









    So I spent all day tuning. Here's what I did.

    Changed the Injector size and deadtime (It showed 776cc's @45psi Base fuel pressure, when I'm actually at 1050cc's @30PSI which I raised to 43psi from my FPR and then logged accordingly.)

    I tuned my Air and Fuel at Idle via MAF Comp and Global Deadtime (with the walkthrough on ECMlink/Demos)

    I did a cruise Log and then let ECMlink do the MAFComp Adjust based on the Log

    I correctly set my TPS to 0-100%

    and lastly I tuned out almost all of my Knock retard.


    Now all of the sudden my Wideband (Which isn't programmed for logging) shows 12.8 under boost which is scary lean at 22psi.
    It was at 11.4 before I did all of this. I'll attach an updated short 3rd gear pull log.



    WHAT AM I DOING WRONG!!!!!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014
  10. WES_393

    WES_393 DSM Wiseman

    3,125
    60
    Joined Jun 6, 2011
    Colo Spgs, Colorado
    The biggest issue I can see is the timing. It's very low, the most advanced your timing ever got was 3.9* BTDC. That is likely where your power loss is coming from. I assume you pulled the timing because of knock, but if your A/F Estimate is anywhere close to your actual A/F Ratio, your knocking from running too lean. If you got your A/F ratio to a richer level (around 11.2 or a tad higher if possible) you would be able to run much more timing and boost than you are now. So once you get your wideband hooked up, I would first take these steps to get your A/F ratio estimate and wideband to match on the log.

    maftcalibrationbywbo2 [ECMTuning - wiki]

    Then I would suggest trying out the stock Evo tables or even the Evo Mod 1 tables. The stock Evo tables did wonders for me when I was having knock issues.

    evo8v3settings [ECMTuning - wiki]

    If the Evo tables work out good, then add timing until you see knock and then back it off a bit. 22psi is really starting to wake up that 16g so with good timing and A/F ratios you should see quite a difference.
     
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  11. LandSpeed-DSM

    LandSpeed-DSM Proven Member

    1,991
    65
    Joined Dec 5, 2011
    Chicago, Illinois
    Coolant temps are causing the ECU to pull some timing and on the DA (direct access) tables the most timing it is aiming for out the top is 5* advance, but because of the ~215* coolant temps it is pulling a degree or two of timing.

    Detach the tables and follow your sweeps to try and smooth them out. For now your MaxOct Fuel table looks fine but if you are running lean as indicated by the UEGO try dumping some more fuel through those cells first..

    If you are regularly only moving ~29-30lbs/min and you dyno'd out at ~300awhp you are pretty much where you should expect to be.

    If you were moving ~35lbs/min and only seeing ~300 on a dyno jet and ~320 in link (with the correct settings for weight/gearing/etc) then I would be worried.
     

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    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    · 1G DSM
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  12. nfernotalon

    nfernotalon Proven Member

    1,068
    3
    Joined Aug 30, 2007
    Greeley, Colorado
    Also I believe you're used to the high compression motors from Hondas, these are low compression motors it takes more boost to make power. For 22psi on the 16g it sounds about right. Turn up the boost or I'd get a bigger turbo.
     

    599  0

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 1G DSM
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  13. RvlutionMtrsprt

    RvlutionMtrsprt Proven Member

    570
    24
    Joined Jan 15, 2005
    Eugene, Oregon
    You should ask Quinton if he had ER tune it when they did the head gasket. I thought he told me that he paid for them to tune the v3 link. I remember being at his house when Lucas was sending him dyno power updates. It's possible that he just paid them to make some pulls with it after the work was done but I'm fairly certain he wanted a full tune so he could sell you the car running well.
     

    Street Build 957  0

    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
    manual · Galant VR-4
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  14. YZFR1

    YZFR1 Proven Member

    512
    51
    Joined Apr 8, 2010
    Atlanta, Georgia
    No wonder it is making sh*t for power, i don't see any reason to run such low numbers on your set up. I hope you have an EGT gauge as i would've been worried running it that low for too long. Could start melting your exhaust valves, manifold and turbo blades.. easily. It's almost like running a permanent anti-lag, which is not good for extended preriods.

    I would ask for my money back!
     
    YZFR1

    569  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  15. andyb2637

    andyb2637 Proven Member

    84
    0
    Joined Jul 13, 2008
    Chicopee, Massachusetts
    What are the chances. Did he get a reciept?? Should have everything he paid for listed. If not they'll most likey look like this..:hmm:..:nono:
     
  16. GSTurbo1

    GSTurbo1 Proven Member

    565
    1
    Joined May 2, 2012
    Pickens, SC, South Carolina
    something isnt right... on my 420a, on 5psi i'm pushing 233 whp.

    Have you checked compression
     

    486  0

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    · 1G DSM
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  17. DSMer541

    DSMer541 Proven Member

    256
    15
    Joined Apr 27, 2009
    Eugene, Oregon

    try getting you AFR in the mid 10's just to be safe for now... then start adding in some timing from 5.5k up till you see knock, then back it down a click, then start pullin fuel till you see knock and then back it down a couple points, boom done.... 10.6-10.8 afr seems to be the sweet spot for me on crappy 92oct pump...
     

    Drag Race Build 312  2

    1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    4K  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    621 whp · 487 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  18. Kingarex

    Kingarex Proven Member

    85
    0
    Joined Jul 3, 2012
    Cheney, Washington
    I really appreciate the help, these are all awesome suggestions. The coolant temp is running a tad high because 1) It was 90 degrees outside and I spent alot of time at stop lights during that last log, and 2)the FP exhaust manifold slowly melted down one of my plastic radiator fans, so i'm relying on just one fan when i'm parked. I'm currently waiting on my Mishimoto.

    Today, I'll wire my UEGO to datalog, then I'll add fuel till I see 10.8's at WOT, and then start creeping the timing until knock is found and back her off a tad and then repost... any other tips?

    Also, I really appreciate the patience and helpfulness. I know that i'm not where I should be, but learning takes time, and stupid questions/actions will arise.. please bear with me fellas!!!!!

    Dumb question warning


    1) do you adjust fuel via the "Fuel Adjustment Table" do I just pick an RPM range and start sliding?

    2) where do you add timing?

    Flame gently LOL
     
  19. MY1GDSM

    MY1GDSM Proven Member

    2,149
    40
    Joined Apr 26, 2007
    On the beach, Washington
    Why not just call up English Racing and ask them for some details?

    Seems like you come out an say they tuned it like you paid them then turn around and say that's in the air

    If you didn't have them yourself it's best to contact people directly to ask before putting peoples names out like that.

    From what I see I kind of doubt that they did... . Or if it did get dyno time it was just that.

    But, IDK I could be wrong... Either way you can't expect record numbers on piss 91 and as said our motors are low compretion so it's going to take a bit more boost and better fuel then what your use to to make bigger numbers. Not everyone can make 350+ on a 16g let alone on pump. A good thing to keep in mind is this is a 2g 7bolt... .

    From what you're saying it sound about close to what you should be(not that you couldn't make more) though I'd be interested to see a real Dyno sheet first.


    EDIT:

    From what I see you asking not to be rude but if your asking these questions you shouldn't be changing anything on your own yet... .
     

    960  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  20. Kingarex

    Kingarex Proven Member

    85
    0
    Joined Jul 3, 2012
    Cheney, Washington
    I hate that people say "Not to be rude" and then immediately become rude.

    So you're saying, that since i'm not born with the knowledge of how to tune a brand new platform, i shouldn't try to learn, and continue to pay money for bullsh!t tunes that I have verified have been paid for and not recieved?

    Thats exactly the kind of "help" that this forum doesnt need. Nothing like signing up just to have some guy say, If you don't know, don't touch it...

    Granted, I'm aware of the reprocussions of improper tuning, but it's not rocket science, nor is it hard to tell when something is wrong. That's why i'm on here. I'm saying "here is my problem, how is it resolved?"

    Furthermore, I'm not new to tuning, I'm only new to ECMlink, and the needs of a lower compression engine..

    So I welcome your opinions, as long as they promote further POSITIVE discussion.
     
  21. MY1GDSM

    MY1GDSM Proven Member

    2,149
    40
    Joined Apr 26, 2007
    On the beach, Washington
    Don't make assumptions...

    I'm saying till you "learn" Ecmlink with blindly tring to set things up like that...
    You're going to be chasing your proverbial tail with out a full understanding of what your doing an all the aspects of it.

    With out gett ot off topic...

    I was truly not trying to be rude.

    But, people's attitudes are everything to me... Your sucks.

    You may have the knowledge to tune it... . But, doesn't look like it from your questions so regardless good luck to you. I don't have any help to give an rarely help people out side of work anymore(let alone on my day off) because of sh** attitudes like that and there are only a handful of people that trully give good help here as well. Keep that in mind the next time you want to snap at people.

    Good day... .
     

    960  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  22. MichaelSuch

    MichaelSuch Proven Member

    789
    19
    Joined Jun 30, 2008
    Pinckneyville, Illinois
    Kingarex, go to your fuel adjustments table and zero it out. You are pulling fuel and that could be why you are running a little lean. Never use the Sliders for tuning, always use the direct access tables if you want to make adjustments for fuel and timing.

    Next go to your Direct Access (DA) tables, and revert OpenLoopThresholds and OpenLoopMaxOctane back to stock settings and re-save to your ECU. The OpenLoopMaxOctane is way too lean for my liking, start back at stock for now until you get your wideband wired to the ECU for datalogging.

    Next I would wire in the wideband for logging to make tuning easier.

    So please zero the adjustments and revert the DA tables (except timing, leave it where its at for now, as they are fairly safe, too much timing will cause detonation and lead to internal engine damage) to stock. Do another log preferably with the engine a little cooler and a third gear pull. With it this hot out I usually do my tuning at night. Then post back with your log.
     

    497  1

    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    Street Build 1K  7

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    10.146 @ 134.81 · 2G DSM
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  23. Kingarex

    Kingarex Proven Member

    85
    0
    Joined Jul 3, 2012
    Cheney, Washington
    I'm not snapping at anybody. I'm approaching your comment directly. I assumed nothing, you outrightly stated that I shouldn't mess around with things that I know nothing about.

    I have a wonderful attitude, in fact I have an attitude of humility and humbleness. I'm bending to the knowledge of those that know more. But being attacked by a random person both in my "assumption" of a garbage tune (that was in fact paid for and not recieved) as well as an attack at my efforts to correct that problem is not something that is going to bring out a happy, fun response.

    If you have a way to teach me something, please, by all means, write it up. I'll absolutely listen to you quietly, and try to apply those teachings. Like I said, I'm not proud, or cocky in any way. I'm fully aware that i'm lacking the knowledge needed to fully tune. So i'm hitting up ECMlink.com for video's and forums, as well as friends in town and obviously this website.

    I don't want this thread to turn into a fight. So my apologies to all and lets get back on track!!!
     
  24. MichaelSuch

    MichaelSuch Proven Member

    789
    19
    Joined Jun 30, 2008
    Pinckneyville, Illinois
    Also one more thing, check your base timing and make sure it's 5*btdc.
     

    497  1

    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    Street Build 1K  7

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    10.146 @ 134.81 · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  25. YZFR1

    YZFR1 Proven Member

    512
    51
    Joined Apr 8, 2010
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Kingarex,

    if you would like to fix this mess yourself, my suggestion would be as follows:

    1. Drop the boost to wastegate spring pressure
    2. Make sure you have a good afr across the board
    3. Interpolate factory timing values into your map http://jeffgst.com/id20.html
    (you can trim them a little for safety but that should be a good starting point, also note that 1g's have more aggressive timing and 2g's more conservative)
    4. Watch for knock!!
    5. When everything above looks fine, start raising boost slowly

    That should be a good starting point. Hope this helps somewhat.
     
    YZFR1

    569  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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