"Bolt-on" 400awhp ...Is it Unrealistic?

[shleppy]

with an evo3 to make that kind of power you need every mod there is, but it can be done. Just add water injection, 650cc injectors, cams and a smim to your list and you can flow 42-44 lbs or air, so with good tuning you can put down over 350whp. It's just not easy

 

[Burnett03]

I passed emissions with my 60-1, 660 injectors, etc, etc. All i did was dump in some 85 octane and a bunch of rubbing alcohol... passed with flying colors

 

[boostedinaz]

also.. for the price of a 20g.. there are bigger/better setups

This is super true. It is to bad that the price of a 20G hasnt fallen. They are a great turbo, but with all the cheaper ones out there they get passed up everyday.

 

[allturbo]

Also passed the california smog nazis with 16g, 660's, and more importantly HKS 264/272 cams. So yes cams can be added on your list, just make sure everything is tuned right.

 

[NewTTuneR]

Well, I guess I've got some more planning to do if I'm gonna hit 4hun
I guess the idea of a "stock looking" setup needs to be ruled-out.

The Hahn Racecraft Super 20G is looking nice. According to HRC. it runs at 75% efficiency past 400hp. They also say it's not necessary to port anything.... So that saves some $$.

((-What other Turbos are out.... that are better than a 20G, and are cheaper?-))
---My budget is 1000 on the turbo. I have been looking alot... But I don't see anything that is better than a 20G at a cheaper price.... (Maybe I just don't know what to look for) ALSO most require you to add an external waste gate, and that's more$$.
I prefer an internal waste gate, but I would go external if the turbo/waste gate combo was priced right.

Thanks

 

[maximumbob]

You could look at AGP's RS line. They are still having a sale on the turbonetics ones. Definitely search around to find out what people who have actually had a turbo have to say before you go listening to people's opinions when they haven't had one.

 

[cutlass73]

Other turbos?

http://shop.greperformance.com/categoryNavigationDocument.hg?categoryId=2
http://www.slowboyracing.com/shop.php?sid=&cat=191
http://www.slowboyracing.com/shop.php?sid=&cat=1268

That should get you started

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

Well, I guess I've got some more planning to do if I'm gonna hit 4hun
I guess the idea of a "stock looking" setup needs to be ruled-out.

The Hahn Racecraft Super 20G is looking nice. According to HRC. it runs at 75% efficiency past 400hp. They also say it's not necessary to port anything.... So that saves some $$.

((-What other Turbos are out.... that are better than a 20G, and are cheaper?-))
---My budget is 1000 on the turbo. I have been looking alot... But I don't see anything that is better than a 20G at a cheaper price.... (Maybe I just don't know what to look for) ALSO most require you to add an external waste gate, and that's more$$.
I prefer an internal waste gate, but I would go external if the turbo/waste gate combo was priced right.

Thanks

http://www.bullseye-power.com/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=59 Check this out. It was suggested to me by another DSMer online. He said he knows a guy pulling 1.9 60ft times with it. Oh, thats fwd btw, and he ran a 12.5, I dont know the trap speed. I put this on my list already too. It flows 48lbs/min, which is what, 1lb/min less than a 50trim? ! Look at this. It got my attention. You came to the right place, I wish I knew about this forum before I started modding my DSM, there are MANY things I would have done differently..

 

[ltho98]

Yeeesh you do LS1 stuff and you buy a dsm? Its kinda like someone in the taliban joining ths US Army.

Anywho, welcome to dsms.

Allow me to nitpick your list. Please retain an open-mind.

My goal is to make 400awhp, (350-minimum) and pass emissions (tail pipe sniffer test)... I hope to keep the cams stock to pass emissions. If I can still pass with mild cams... I'll add them.

You can pass emissions by inducing isopropanol (rubbing alcohol) into a near empty tank. Trust me, when my dad made me work the machine at his emissions shop I got bored very easily and experimented with stuff on the web. Rubbing alcohol makes your emissions plummet to near nothing. This is on a dsm with 650cc injectors and cams. Add the cams, they are quite fun.

For 3 weeks I've been doing research, and planning. Besides ported heads... its basically a bolt-on motor.

Porting heads does very little on modern pentroof designs. Money is best spent elsewhere in my opinion

"Air"
Custom "Cold-Air" Intake pipe
FMIC kit
Blow off Valve

Scrap the BOV kit, a stock crushed one has held 30 psi for me quite nicely. Unless you want something bling and looks/sounds cool: Tial all the way. FMIC is a MUST unless you plan on making something elaborate with a water-to-air type setup out of the stock side mount.

"Turbo"
Mitsu. EVO III 16G Turbo
w/ Turbine Inlet & Outlet Porting, & 34mm internal gate

Won't be enough for 400awhp. 20G won't carry you to 400awhp either. Now corrected, maybe but not at the wheels. for 400awhp you will need larger: 50 Trim (i.e.- RS49, PTE, Green) or bigger

"Exhaust"
Mitsu. EVO III Exh. Manifold, w/ Stage 2 Manifold Porting
Mistu. EVO III O2 Housing, w/ O2 Porting
3" inch Down pipe
Race Cat Converter
Custom 3" Cat-Back
Dyna Tech Splitflow Muffler

Looks good here

"Engine"
Fresh 2.0L Rebuilt Motor

"Valve train"
Street/Strip heads
w/ Titanium Springs & Retainers

Forget the head. People have ran 9's on stock valves. Stock will carry you a long long way. Just to poke fun at the domestic in you, we have a single head-- not head(s) To optimize the full potential of the titanium springs and retainers (i.e.- higher rev limit) you will need a tuning device that will eliminate the 7500rpm redline. With good springs/retainers you can easily/safely/make power upto 8000rpm. DSMLink will take care of that one

"Fuel"
Walbro 255 lph Fuel Pump
Areomotove Fuel Pressure Reg.
Fuel Lines, Filter & Fittings
Fuel injectors

No need for fuel lines, but i do recommend a fuel pump rewire to get the max voltage to the pump. 750cc injectors for 400awhp (which is roughly about 470hp corrected).

"Engine Management"
DSM Link
Laptop <Got it)
3" GM MAF
MAF-T. (For 3" GM MAF)
Manual Boost Controller
Greddy Electric Boost Gauge
Greddy Fuel Pressure Gauge
Greddy Exhaust Temp Gauge

Looks good here

"Transmission"
Tranny Rebuild
SBR 3500 Clutch Kit
Short Shifter

Shep tranny and ACT2900. Thats all you need to know.

"Suspension"
Eibach Pro kit Springs
KYB AGX Adjustable struts
Upgraded Brakes

Good here.

 

[Revolution]

Ok boys and girls lets look at the obvious,yes biggers turbos can and will make more power ,but with what sacrifice. My set up is quite close to 400 awhp in the 300's to be safe,and I love it. I was seroiusly thinking about getting the stroker until I got my car back recently with the tune up. Man does it haul ass and thats with 450's in it. Basically I was driving with three good 680's and one shitty one. Point being my car responds faster then with the t25 and with alot more ummf right through till red line. Probably because of how I've set up my modds. Point being that yes you could have 400 peak hp and go fast in a stright line ,but did you sacrifice your midrange to get it?

My car is doing everything from autox to the 1320 and I really dont think I'll be going stroker anymore. Im going to start saving my pennies and get some obx lsd's. Whats the point of making x amount of power if your not really putting it to the ground properly.

 

[boostedinaz]

Ok boys and girls lets look at the obvious,yes biggers turbos can and will make more power ,but with what sacrifice. My set up is quite close to 400 awhp in the 300's to be safe,and I love it. I was seroiusly thinking about getting the stroker until I got my car back recently with the tune up. Man does it haul ass and thats with 450's in it. Basically I was driving with three good 680's and one shitty one. Point being my car responds faster then with the t25 and with alot more ummf right through till red line. Probably because of how I've set up my modds. Point being that yes you could have 400 peak hp and go fast in a stright line ,but did you sacrifice your midrange to get it?

My car is doing everything from autox to the 1320 and I really dont think I'll be going stroker anymore. Im going to start saving my pennies and get some obx lsd's. Whats the point of making x amount of power if your not really putting it to the ground properly.

I agree with you to some extent. There really isnt that much lag or loss of mid range with a 20G or a 50 trim. Everyone acts like anything bigger then a 16G and you will have to wait for a few days to get into boost and this is not true.

Did you actually dyno your car to see what the real HP numbers are or are those just a guess? Also what type of fuel were you using to make that power. The original poster is like me and wont use race gas. A 16G WILL NOT MAKE 400AWHP ON PUMP GAS no matter what magical voodooo anyone throws at it.

 

[gixrman]

Don't worry so much about emissions with DSMLink you'll be able to alter it to make it pass plus if its tuned correctly it sould pass anyway just worry about the "visual" inspection.

 

[NewTTuneR]

Well.... it looks like I have a 7-bolt.
I was already going to have my motor rebuilt. I dont know what it's going to takes to get a 6-bolt in... but I guess I'll have to do it.

Turbo lag is a concern with me! Thats why I want the smallest turbo capable of 400Whp.

When I step on the gas in my DSM... It feels like it takes forever for the power to kick in! (I know its not fast in stock form, but with no boost it feel sickly-slow)
(To put things into perspective)
I've been into V8's since I was a kid. My WS6 makes over 300Lbs-Tq from 2100RPM! ...The Power is instantaneous!

Most of my fun will be up against unsuspecting V8-badass wannabe's. (I know what tourqe can do) Racing from a roll... By the time I hit boost, the V8 would be a car length ahead. I cant imagine the turbo lag being worse!

Of Course I know V8's are completely different from a 4-bangin Turbo motor.
BUT........... If I DO stick with stock cams.... and get a big turbo.... I'm going to need a bigger power range than 4300 to 6500RPM.
I dont mind making power later in the RPM range, but 2000RPM worth of usuable power is unacceptable.

So now I'm not sure where I'm at... or what Turbo I'm planning to buy. The other parts are good, but As far as turbos go... I'm now as torn as ever.

Basically... What I understand now is...
I need a 50trim to safely make 400awhp on pump gas..... AND If I do that... turbo lag will be worse, and the usable power range will suckazz ...... So I'll have to get cams to raise my usable power range.... AND... if I get cams it will be hard to pass emissions.

If I'm going to make my goal..... I guess the 2 big questions are......
How hard is it to pass emissions with cams? And How bad is it on my engine to "induce isopropanol (rubbing alcohol) into a near empty tank""

My goal is not lost yet...
Thanks for the replys/sugestions so far

 

[boostedinaz]

A 50 trim will not spool up that bad and you can still pass emmisions with a good tune. You would be suprised at how many people say this and that and have never even been in a car with a 50 trim or other large turbo. A DSM will never make power like an LS1 car or any V8 for that matter, but dont let that discourage you. You power band wil lnot be just a few K it will be from about 3800 to 7500 or more depending on mods. if you are still concerned then find a DSM in your are with mods similar to the ones to want and ask for a ride. I have afeeling you will be very suprised.

 

[gixrman]

I would consider a 2.3, 2.4 motor with 9:1 comp. giving you more tq and the higher comp. will give better throttle respounce until the boost kicks in. Also I would look into other turbos as turbo lag is the evil side affect of high HP motors. As stated above a tubo 4 banger cannot be compared to a V8. Kinda like a Harley V-twin and a sportbike two totally different power systems.

 

[NewTTuneR]

2.3 or 2.4L was what I originally wanted.
I asked my local DSM shop about the possibilities. They said that going with a 2.3 or 2.4L "is opening a whole new can of worms". It requires stuff like 1000cc injectors, and stand alone computer system. For my 400awhp goal.... its overkill. But the bigger problem would be my budget. And I dont think the smog testers would like a aftermarket computer system

I did check into Shepard trans. And the verdict is............

""We have a stage 3 for $1695 that will hold 400awhp with ease. Shipping should be about $90 each way
John Shepherd""

..........That trans option sounds good to me

I DO need to take a ride in someone's build DSM. Problem is I don't know ANY DSM'ers yet. I'm kinda the lone DSM'er in my area. ((you guys are the closest things that I have to DSM'n buddies))
HELL.... I'm becoming an outcast by my Domestic car buddies. 90% of my friends are Camaro/Firebird/Mustang fans. (I'm taking alot of shiit from those guys about this build) Me... I dont care what car it is... if it goes fast... I like it! The only thing thats gonna shut'em up... is me Whoamp'n on'em in my DSM!

ADD that to my list of goals:
Whoamp on all the V8's that are talkin shite about my DSM!!

So I guess I'm looking at 50 trim turbos now. (or the equivalent)
And looking at cams too.... (although I think I see how much HP I can make without them first) And I'm talking with a local DSM shop (Pina Motorsports) about 6-bolt engine options. And of course that Stage 3 Shep-Trans is looking good.

I think I'm getting close to finishing my final build list (again). I cant wait to get started. With all the planning... I hope to have a really good build. I'll document everything I can, and keep you guys informed about my power gains. Thanks Guys

 

[CanadianTSi]

I wouldn't worry about the motor until you actually break it.

Lag is totally over rated. If you race from a roll you will choose a gear that gives you instant boost when you hit the the gas and if you race from a stop you have boost as soon as you launch...where's the lag?

PS my 50 trim makes lots of power from 3800 to 7500 on my bone stock motor, thats lots of usable power if you ask me.

 

[AL92]

I have a 99 ta ws6 with some mods and have been playing with talons for a few years.
I am mostly an old muscle car guy but the dsms are big fun and enjoy messing with them.

Not sure why you want a sleeper dsm.Most people don't have a clue what is under the hood except other dsm guys. My v8 buddies laughed until I gave a few rides in my 50 trim 92 and let a few of them drive it and that was with a slipping stock clutch and stock sidemount intercooler at 15 psi only. Hardly showing what the 50 trim could do but still they had some respect for it. Even with factory shot clutch is was as fast as most lt1 fourth gens and faster than almost all the factory third and second gens.

Anyway you want stealth ,dont polish the turbo!! You want 400 whp you better go 50 trim or bigger like a nice 60-1. Buddy runs a 60 -1 RS60T says it spools as fast as his evo 16 and has no cams,intake manifold just a 1g 7 bolt and good intercooler and tuning.

But if you want the full meal deal it will get expensive. I am now builing a 2g car with 2.4 6 bolt swap,at least a 60-1 size turbo likely Ball bearing type. And of course need a lot of support mods. But it will hit 400 whp on pump I am pretty confident.And its stealth anyway as most people have no clue how fast a big turboed dsm or any big turboed car can be. To heck with stealth..leave the car stock externally and dont' polish the turbo. Done deal.

 

[las_vegaslazer]

cheapturbo.com for 50 trims and 60-1 or http://linux.forcedperformance.net/...duct_Code=NTDSMFP3052&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo or http://linux.forcedperformance.net/...duct_Code=NTDSMFP3065&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo these should give you some ideas

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

I wouldn't worry about the motor until you actually break it.

Lag is totally over rated. If you race from a roll you will choose a gear that gives you instant boost when you hit the the gas and if you race from a stop you have boost as soon as you launch...where's the lag?

PS my 50 trim makes lots of power from 3800 to 7500 on my bone stock motor, thats lots of usable power if you ask me.

I agree 110%, turbo lag is overrated, it goes away with the downshift of a gear or two. And besides, when are you going to be below 5000rpms when you're running somebody anyhow? If you're getting DSMLink, that comes with an anti-lag function, right? Here's a saying i believe in, the more lag, the more kick when the lag goes away ..

 

[sickgsx-316]

With a big turbo more often than not you will find yourself giving your v8 buddies a car or so headstart before you fly past them. Its waaay good times.

 

[Revolution]

I agree with you to some extent. There really isnt that much lag or loss of mid range with a 20G or a 50 trim. Everyone acts like anything bigger then a 16G and you will have to wait for a few days to get into boost and this is not true.

Did you actually dyno your car to see what the real HP numbers are or are those just a guess? Also what type of fuel were you using to make that power. The original poster is like me and wont use race gas. A 16G WILL NOT MAKE 400AWHP ON PUMP GAS no matter what magical voodooo anyone throws at it.

I agree with you to some extent in retrospec to lag ,but since I'm focusing more on the road coarse view for my car, lag becomes a very big issue to me. Not everybody drives straight.

I apologize for my late response but work has been killing me lately, to answer your question my hp comment is an estimate based on a comparison to my best friends talon whom was dynoed with half identical parts. His car pulled 330whp out of his big 16g on 94 pump gas, so the comparison was, since he has half of my performance mods then my car should be making more hp.The other half batch of mods make the power difference known when we race each other, I always win by at least two car lengths.

I personally think the evo 316g can come very close to the 400aw-hp mark with the right mods ,mind you my car is nothing near a sleeper.

Things like using the fp e316 sleeper can reach his goals but with the sacrifice of lag.

I chose to extruded hone my exhaust housing and it worked out very well to be quite honest. The next step will be to pull it apart again and jet black coat it to help with the spool alittle bit more. I will post picks when the time comes. I have become used to the car again and now I am starting to crave the 2.3L motor but unfortunately that will be the very last mod I do. I disagree with a comment that was made earlier about how an e316 turbo would never hit 400whp again . I hope to eclipse the slowboy mark with in the year, but unfortunately my turbo has been modified so in the end it will be irrelevant.

The one thing our friend here has misplaced on his wish list is LSD and shafts and the lightest possible rims. These three things will make a huge difference in the final outcome of the cars performance. I personally am not trying to dissuade anybody from the bigger turbos ,but personally having experience with an fp3052 which I did own and sold, to me lag is like nails on a chalk board I cant stand it and I don't like experiencing it. In the end I didn't have the right mods for that turbo(fp3052) and nor was I ready to spend thousands of more dollares to take advantage of it's great quality's. So I am a proud advocate of the e316g hey it might not work for you but it did and has worked for me.

 

[slvrstingray]

I recently spent a day tuning a 91 eclipse on the dyno... after 49 pulls on 91 octane pump gas... we hit 405 HP to the wheels. Here are the list of engine mods:

JE 8.5 to 1 pistons
Carillo Rods
Stock head
272 intake/exhaust cams
AEM Cam gears
Hogan intake manifold
880cc injectors
walbro 255
Tubular exhaust manifold
Garret T66
Tial external wastegate - plumbed back into the exhaust
3" turbo back exhaust
AEM EMS
Wideband
Converted to speed density
Front mount intercooler with 2.25" Piping
Jun Flywheel
ACT 2900

And a hell of a lot of Dyno time.....

 

[evolvingGS-t]

The 350whp range is not really out of the question. I hit 298whp by close to 2800rpm on 14lbs and I continued to pull power (on stock cams) until 5700rpm. Give or take a few on the rpms stated.

So I imagine a little more tuning and boost, I can see hitting 350.
This was on the EVO3, I love the turbo. It's the perfect set up for me.

 

[sherwinz28]

I'll definately be keeping a close eye on this post as I would like to hit 400awhp in my 92 talon as well. At this point my goal at the moment is 300awhp. I'm also from the V-8 background as I have a 96 LT-1 with heads/cam and most bolt-ons. I'm still trying to hit 400whp on that thing but have issues with misfires. Maybe one day it will get a turbo...most likely STS(I live in cali, easy for smog reasons). My budget is a bit less then yours however. I sometimes wonder how you guys can afford all this stuff?! Maybe living elsewhere besides cali is cheaper. My only question is do they make 50 trims that bolt on directly to the 1G/2G exhaust manifolds and do you need an external wastegate, which I believe would require an aftermarket exhaust manifold? I think bullseye makes them but who else?
Thanks