BLOWN engine 99 GSX

[mitsuclipsegsx]

Need some help guys. I just had work done to my car at victor research in CT. They installed, magnus,hks cams,springs/retainers, and headstuds. I am not saying its there falut, but it might be. I got the car back sat, put around 150 miles on it. This morning on my way to school driving normal(50mph) hear a bang, i was like there's my engine. Got it pulled over and jacked it up, i saw a small hole on the front side of the block, but no oil from there, all from the back, so i assume there is a big one there. And this is weird the starter braket broke, atleast i think thats what it is. Timing belt looks fine, it would of snapped it it was off a degree right? So what could the casue be???


Thanks

 

[mitsuclipsegsx]

Well i just drained the oil, nothing metal came out, just 2 qts of oil, so i lost 2.5. I guess now i need to drop the pan.

 

[Talonracn50]

Does it have to be the bottom end of the motor? Have you ruled out tranny and flywheel/clutch being the problem?

 

[mitsuclipsegsx]

If it was tranny related, why would there be a hole on the front side of the block?, and it leaked oil, not tranny fluid.

 

[twicks69]

Did they install new piston rings on your engine. with all of that head work you were almost sure to blowout the bottom end if no one re- rung the pistons at least if its a since its a 7 bolt they should have went ahead and installed new bearings also because a powerful head will ruin a non rebuilt bottom end.

What kind of BS information is this????

I am sorry, but installing cams, springs and retainers, head studs and an intake manifold IS NOT going to ruin a non-rebuilt bottom end. The piston rings and engine bearings werent a failure point.


First off,

It is in your best interests to get a AAA Plus membership. They offer 4 tows a year (including flatbed) for 100miles each (then you pay the additional costs over 100 miles -- it is usually like $3.00/mile afterwards). http://www.autoclubgroup.com/wisconsin/autos/roadservice.asp Call them and set it up. It is a worthy investment as we do own DSM's and they regularly break.


Second,

Did they TUNE your vehicle on a DYNO after installing the new parts? Did YOU change your tune after installing the new parts?


If you are going to bring it back to them to inspect the issue at hand and/or place blame on them, just be prepared because you just questioned their capabilities and are threatening them. Do you have a written authorization/contract to do the work? Did you sign a written release for the mods to be installed? What are their certifications? What kind of paperwork did they give you to "cover their own assses" when they did the work on your car?

These are the most important thing right now.

Next, is towing it to them FIRST -- do not touch it at all if you are going to follow the "fix it because YOU (the shop) broke it" route.

If you are going to END it without doing the action above, then you should FIRST call and apologize for the blame placed on them for blowing up your motor.

Then you should take off your oil pan, and start to see what failed. More than likely a rod/rod bolt or crank problem. Also, when was the last time you had your transmission off? When was the flywheel taken off? Were the flywheel bolts retorqued and loctite red on them? The reason I am asking is that the just doesn't "break off".

I would pull the inspection plate off the bottom of the transmission and have someone manually crank over the engine (with the vehicle on jackstands OF COURSE) and look for flywheel damage -- you could have had your flywheel scatter and the balance issue caused your crank/rotating assembly to throw itself through the block.



Personally, it sounds like a tune issue, or old parts failing from a long time of abuse or poor tune. Have you even pulled the spark plugs yet?

 

[Talonracn50]

If it was tranny related, why would there be a hole on the front side of the block?, and it leaked oil, not tranny fluid.

If it was engine related why would the starter, which mounts to the transmission, have gotten knocked off. I guess if the #4 rod really came zinging out of the block it could knock it off.

I am just trying to help him figure out what happened.

 

[mitsuclipsegsx]

I agree, i think its the tune and old parts. The car was tuned before the parts were installed but not after, so that was deff my falut. So bascially those parts they installed could have no way casued what happend correct. I took out spark plugs, they are fine.

 

[twicks69]

Their parts being installed didn't cause a hole in your block; that was tune and abused parts. Had they physically tuned your vehicle afterwards, and DID NOT have you sign a liability form, then they would be potentially liable for their actions. Either way, it looks like you need a new block and rotating assembly and a new bellhousing/starter/flywheel.

In your 3rd picture, please explain the photo better, or better yet...take a couple more photos. It looks like your bellhousing shattered and took out the starter. If this happened, I would lean towards pulling the oil pan AND pulling the tranny to see what failed. Either way, the pieces need to come out for a rebuild. You either have to go and do it yourself, or tow the car to a shop and have them pull everything and diagnose what failed.

Personally, it looks like a crank failure or a flywheel scattering based on the starter damage and bellhousing damage. OR a rod let go and made a new home in your engine, AND the loss of balance snapped the crank or ate up the main bearings. I am still leaning towards the first problem, but more photos are needed when you remove the cylinder head and the oil pan, and main girdle, and inspect whatever is inside the oil pan.

 

[talon187]

if your going to get a new block i would get a 6bolt if i were you and build up the bottom end since your head is all built already. If you do that i would take it back to vr and have them tune it for you. i was there yesterday myself and they were really helpful i havent seen so many dsms at one shop before

 

[mitsuclipsegsx]

Their parts being installed didn't cause a hole in your block; that was tune and abused parts. Had they physically tuned your vehicle afterwards, and DID NOT have you sign a liability form, then they would be potentially liable for their actions. Either way, it looks like you need a new block and rotating assembly and a new bellhousing/starter/flywheel.

In your 3rd picture, please explain the photo better, or better yet...take a couple more photos. It looks like your bellhousing shattered and took out the starter. If this happened, I would lean towards pulling the oil pan AND pulling the tranny to see what failed. Either way, the pieces need to come out for a rebuild. You either have to go and do it yourself, or tow the car to a shop and have them pull everything and diagnose what failed.

Personally, it looks like a crank failure or a flywheel scattering based on the starter damage and bellhousing damage. OR a rod let go and made a new home in your engine, AND the loss of balance snapped the crank or ate up the main bearings. I am still leaning towards the first problem, but more photos are needed when you remove the cylinder head and the oil pan, and main girdle, and inspect whatever is inside the oil pan.

What makes you say flywheel? I had my tranny rebuilt at pruven month ago, but it ran fine. and they are know to be very good.

 

[delta448]

I also am suspecting a flywheel issue. I am hypothesizing that the flywheel either:

A. cracked, separated and went severely out of balance; tossing the starter with a projectile, gaulding main bearings and warping con rods

B. caught a piece of metal debris in a tooth and stopped the engine from spinning for a fraction of a nanosecond, causing increasing pressure on the unlucky cylinder to blow the con rod through the block

I would imagine some moderate damage may have also been done to the crank if I'm even in the right ballpark on this one.

 

[1G90AWDTsi]

I just dont think there going to fix it, so towing it there would be a waste. He said it wasnt his falut, so what i would like to do is see what casued it, and see whos falut it is. Where can i get a 6 bolt from, just search around junk yards.

How does he know it's not his fault unless he looks at it? I don't think you should take the VC off either cause then it could look like you might've done it "before" it blew. My buddy had his camaro built a while back and had the bottom end blow. Mech. said it wasn't their fault too but when they took it apart (in front of my bud), they found an oil rag in the block. Their fault afterall.

 

[mitsuclipsegsx]

I also am suspecting a flywheel issue. I am hypothesizing that the flywheel either:

A. cracked, separated and went severely out of balance; tossing the starter with a projectile, gaulding main bearings and warping con rods

B. caught a piece of metal debris in a tooth and stopped the engine from spinning for a fraction of a nanosecond, causing increasing pressure on the unlucky cylinder to blow the con rod through the block

I would imagine some moderate damage may have also been done to the crank if I'm even in the right ballpark on this one.

Hopefully not,haha but you may be right, i guess its time to start taking it apart and see how bad it is.

 

[Mikael SS]

Did they install new piston rings on your engine. with all of that head work you were almost sure to blowout the bottom end if no one re- rung the pistons at least if its a since its a 7 bolt they should have went ahead and installed new bearings also because a powerful head will ruin a non rebuilt bottom end.

stop posting

 

[1G90AWDTsi]

Compression was perfect at the beginning of the year. Now i heard when you add cams it leans the car out, so maybe i needed to retune it. That might of casued it.

I added HKS cams too (264i/272e)...and it's running very rich even only at stock boost. I did add 750cc injectors and had them scaled with dsmlink. I also am only running with stock fuel pump (I know I need to get a bigger one). Anyway...lean? not me and it still isn't running like I thought it would. I should've stuck with the stock cams. Sorry man.

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[oldman]

Did they install new piston rings on your engine. with all of that head work you were almost sure to blowout the bottom end if no one re- rung the pistons at least if its a since its a 7 bolt they should have went ahead and installed new bearings also because a powerful head will ruin a non rebuilt bottom end.

I am the source Ive experienced it. but I did misread the post I thought it said he had new valves put in too. however if he was on it during the break in period that did do the damage to the motor it broke down later on because the damage was already done after he nailed it. I know since the block had 137,000 miles it should have been re-rung because it needed it if it hadnt been done in a while

The bottom end should have been re-rung and and the driver shouldnt have nailed it until after atleast 500 miles to be on the safe side or maybe more since is a modded 7 bolt engine with 137,000 miles.

I'm not even going to comment on this one, I'm simply reaffirming what twicks69 already said for future readers, THIS IS SIMPLY NONSENSE. Please continue.

 

[meliketoball]

Don't give up and don't blame your self for breaking your car. Stop what you are doing by tearing about your motor. Put it back together and go to the shop; don't attack them but tell them what happened to your car after they finished working on it 70 miles later.

 

[Big Woo]

I think what he is getting at is.
If there was a problem with the flywheel/pressure plate/ or input shaft, it could have caused rapid and abrupt deceleration of the the crankshaft. Thereby leading to an engine failure, but one who's root cause might have been instigated by a transmission or clutch failure.

 

[purplehazetsi]

Dude, its not VR's fault. looks to me like u tossed a rod.. it happends man...

And to the person saying you need to re-ring youre bottom end when upgrading parts... go jump off a cliff.

From the pictures that you took, VR did everything right, it just so happened you threw a rod. Have u ever heard any knock comming from the bottom end? especially in the morning?

 

[TsiArt01]

What I can tell from all this is that your motor was old and never rebuild . Also I've seen and heard of people throwing rods at 30k miles on the motor . You had 137K .

Now I have couple of theorys , But like Haze said . Did you hear the rod knock in the morning ? Or any other time b4 it went kaboom?

I heard cars with rod knock and it's not sometihng that you can ignore.

BTW the rod failure is just coincidance as far i can see.

 

[Eclipse98_RS]

I have a question? It seems like you know what you are doing in regards to taking the engine apart. Why would you bring the car into a shop? Why wouldnt you do it yourself and save on the labor? I would think as soon as you took the valve cover off that voided anything the shop did and you wont get anything back from them. Ive heard this all too often, which is the reason I sold my DSM A good rule of thumb is: If you have any work done to your car let it be broken in. Even if its something trivial that has nothing to do with the car.

 

[Talonracn50]

Rule of thumb does not make sense.

There was nothing to "break in"

Tune, yes, but not break in.

 

[mitsuclipsegsx]

I have a question? It seems like you know what you are doing in regards to taking the engine apart. Why would you bring the car into a shop? Why wouldnt you do it yourself and save on the labor? I would think as soon as you took the valve cover off that voided anything the shop did and you wont get anything back from them. Ive heard this all too often, which is the reason I sold my DSM A good rule of thumb is: If you have any work done to your car let it be broken in. Even if its something trivial that has nothing to do with the car.

I cant take a motor apart. I had them do those things, cause i couldnt do it,or trust myself,thats why. Now that i am thinking i did hear a knock when i started it. Taking it to VR is a waste, i dont think its there falut, casuse everything they installed it fine and wouldnt cause what happend,like most of you are saying,i think its old, alot of power for the block, not tuned, didnt help. So i am gonna have a friend who is a mechnic look at it and go from there.

 

[1G90AWDTsi]

Cams shouldn't change your tune as far as leaning the car out, yes they will increase VE/airflow but the MAF reads the new increased airflow & injects fuel accordingly. Your air/fuel ratio should basically be the same but cams do create more cylinder pressure at the same boost so it isn't out of the norm for a tune that didn't knock pre cams to knock with cams. Did you do any logs to check the tune after the cams? Sure you could have seen alot of knock & thrown a rod through the block but this wouldn't seem to be the cause to me, as you said you were under light load when it happened.

I had my head ported/polished and installed hks cams 264/272 with 750s on a stock pump (scaled the 750s w/dsmlink) and put 1,500 miles on it now, and haven't had any related issues since. I never tuned the car "at all" either and it still runs fine today...uh except it really should be tuned (at least the bottom end and I am planning on a bigger FP). Sorry to get off subject.

 

[daren_p]

I had my head ported/polished and installed hks cams 264/272 with 750s on a stock pump (scaled the 750s w/dsmlink) and put 1,500 miles on it now, and haven't had any related issues since. I never tuned the car "at all" either and it still runs fine today...uh except it really should be tuned (at least the bottom end and I am planning on a bigger FP). Sorry to get off subject.

That was sorta my point, if you didn't have any tunning done or a "stock" tune pre cams, then not knocking after cams wouldn't seem out of the norm to me. Now if you did infact have a good/proper tune, the cams or increased VE/airflow from the intake (or in your case head work) should be enough to cause a tune that wasn't knocking pre cams to knock. Abvoiusly the stock"tune" isn't really a tune at all, its pig rich & low on timing, this is less then ideal but like you said may allow you to add cams or other mods to increase VE & still be fine. Also if your not running higher boost/starting to push the limits of pump gas, this won't be an issue either (I just automatically assume that by the time you upgrade cams, your running 20+ psi )

 

[EclipseSH21]

In defense of VR, they are indeed quite a reputable shop. I wouldn't go there for personal reasons (non-car related) but they do excellent work. In your case, it seems just a bad coincidence, or a lack of research and proper tuning on your part- which happens. It's all speculation really until you pull the oil pan/motor and see just what went wrong. It sucks now, but you have a somewhat built head that you can take full advantage of by building a stronger bottom end. A blessing in disguise perhaps.