Black soot from exhaust?

[TuRBoTaLooN]

I wasn't sure exactly where to post this, so I figured here would be a safe bet...

I noticed this for a while since I put in the 6 bolt motor. Every time I start the car cold, black soot comes out of the exhaust and onto the wall/floor of my garage. It doesn't necessarily happen the second I start the car, but within a minute there is black stuff sputtering out.

Some possibly pertinent info...
95 Talon AWD with 6 bolt swap
AFR on cold startup is in the 8:1-9:1 range.
No cat, straight pipe from turbo to muffler
No emissions equip (including charcoal canister, egr valve, pcv valve)
Catch can setup is just a -12 line from VC to catch can, and brass fitting where the PCV valve used to be, routed to catch can).

I'm just not quite sure what this is and want to stop getting my garage dirty. Thanks.

 

[LiquidX]

My first guess is that there is condensation in your exhaust pipe and that is being shot out the tail while all covered in carbon.

 

[pwnzer]

I would agree, especially if it sits for a while, we have a jeep that we only use for towing our boat and a lot of condensation builds up in the exhaust and then a black "stream" of water comes out. You probably have just a little bit of condensation.

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

Yea, that theory makes sense....poo....

Any ideas on how to help remedy this?

 

[dsm-onster]

If you don't want a dirty garage, don't work in it

AFR on cold startup is in the 8:1-9:1 range.
No cat, straight pipe from turbo to muffler
No emissions equip (including charcoal canister, egr valve, pcv valve)

My cars puff out black smoke when the A/F ratio is this rich during a pull.

 

[El Cuervo]

I don't mean to seat the thread but I do have a question on this.
Every time I start my car, I also get a black soot of liquid coming out the muffler. I can actually see drops of water rolling out the muffler tail pipe. I know its condesation in the exhaust. But my problem is this: why doesn't my brothers car have this? He also has a 3inch turbo back. I haven't really seen this in other cars but mine.

 

[Pyro13]

running rich = soot
condensation + soot = dirty garage door

You are more apt to get higher levels of condensation if you are running rich, its a vicious cycle. First check your tune, Second find the low spots where condensation is pooling (probably the muffler) and drill a 1/16th inch hole.

 

[SteGerHPI]

The black soot is kind of normal especially with a big free flowing exhaust and no cat, But your AFRs are pig rich. That's the absolute first thing I would do something about. Why isn't your car in closed loop at idle??? Your AFRs should be jumping @ 14ish at idle. Rich is safe, but it doesn't make any power. Lean is mean but it melts stuff. "With great power comes great responsibility"

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

Let me re-phrase that....

When I start the car (cold), the AFR starts out around 8:1-9:1. After a few seconds (if that) it gets to the ~14.7 mark and the o2 sensor cycles as it should.

 

[ramsack]

it is all normal. water is a by-product of burning hydrocarbons, and so is soot. there is benzene in most gas and this usually creates a little soot when burned.

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

Thanks...knowing it is "normal" and nothing is particular wrong because of it makes me feel a million times better.

 

[belalerede]

coolant temp sensor is probably bad causing it to run rich. Also did you change your valve seals before the install? If you did not they could be bad. Black smoke is never normal it indicates a rich air to fuel mixture.

 

[viprez586]

Last time i looked mine was in the 12:1 on cold start.
There is a delay in accuracy on cold-starts for most WBO2s.

Sniff your ecu caps lately?

Otherwise yes its totally normal and won't hurt anything.
Perhaps do a boost leak test if your that worried.


All posters: stop telling him he's running rich as if it's not suppose to. Cold-starts are designed by the manufacturer to run rich in order to pre-heat the catalytic converter faster then say 14.7:1 AFR.

Belalerede, 1Gs run as rich as 9.5:1 AFR under a WOT from the factory. Black smoke will exit the tail-pipe. Completely normal from an OEM perspective.

 

[ramsack]

All posters: stop telling him he's running rich as if it's not suppose to. Cold-starts are designed by the manufacturer to run rich in order to pre-heat the catalytic converter faster then say 14.7:1 AFR.

I agree. it goes to stoich after a few seconds anyway. It's the same thing as having a choke. A cold engine needs a lot of gas to start and stay running for the first few moments.

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

Thanks....

and to clear up again...there is no SMOKE coming out of my exhaust. Please READ FIRST!

 

[tweek814]

No cat, straight pipe from turbo to muffler
No emissions equip (including charcoal canister, egr valve, pcv valve)
Catch can setup is just a -12 line from VC to catch can, and brass fitting where the PCV valve used to be, routed to catch can

I think you answered your own question here.

 

[SteGerHPI]

Last time i looked mine was in the 12:1 on cold start.
There is a delay in accuracy on cold-starts for most WBO2s.

Sniff your ecu caps lately?

Otherwise yes its totally normal and won't hurt anything.
Perhaps do a boost leak test if your that worried.


All posters: stop telling him he's running rich as if it's not suppose to. Cold-starts are designed by the manufacturer to run rich in order to pre-heat the catalytic converter faster then say 14.7:1 AFR.

Belalerede, 1Gs run as rich as 9.5:1 AFR under a WOT from the factory. Black smoke will exit the tail-pipe. Completely normal from an OEM perspective.

I'm not saying your wrong being I've never checked afr's on initial start up, but a lean air fuel ratio burns hotter and creates more energy so why would the manufacturer make a rich condition to preheat the cat? Rich conditions are usually used on cold starts to prevent fuel from freezing on the valves so there's enough fuel to start the car, a lot of car also go to semi-sequential injection on cold start. Rich conditions are usually used to prevent detonation.

 

[ramsack]

a lean mixture will burn hotter, in the engine. a rich mixture will not burn all of the gas and will burn and expand in the exhaust, heating the cat quicker.

 

[dsm-onster]

Last time i looked mine was in the 12:1 on cold start.
There is a delay in accuracy on cold-starts for most WBO2s.

Sniff your ecu caps lately?

Otherwise yes its totally normal and won't hurt anything.
Perhaps do a boost leak test if your that worried.


All posters: stop telling him he's running rich as if it's not suppose to. Cold-starts are designed by the manufacturer to run rich in order to pre-heat the catalytic converter faster then say 14.7:1 AFR.

Belalerede, 1Gs run as rich as 9.5:1 AFR under a WOT from the factory. Black smoke will exit the tail-pipe. Completely normal from an OEM perspective.

This is the best answer and resolves this thread. . . My motors run with black smoke at WOT with the factory untouched ecu and factory boost. Because, yes the fuel map actually goes down to 9.4:1 on a 1g. Cold starting is where the o2 sensor heater isn't even warm yet. There is no cycling and thus the factory coldstart open loop is rather rich. In fact even the fuel pressure solenoid is vented to atmosphere to raise the fuel pressure during cold running. ALL for the sake of dialing in richness for the fools who drive a cold motor hard, then bicker for a warranty claim.

If my motors arnt rod knocking or smoking blue on startup, then I could care less about anything else until it warms up. Once warm is where I start to look at smokes, smells, and everything else.

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

Marked as resolved. Thanks!

 

[viprez586]

I'm not saying your wrong being I've never checked afr's on initial start up, but a lean air fuel ratio burns hotter and creates more energy so why would the manufacturer make a rich condition to preheat the cat? Rich conditions are usually used on cold starts to prevent fuel from freezing on the valves so there's enough fuel to start the car, a lot of car also go to semi-sequential injection on cold start. Rich conditions are usually used to prevent detonation.

Just like said before, why do they have chokes on lawn mowers, motorcycles, etc. Pretty much everything known.

Do you lift 100lbs your first rep? Or work your way up gradually?

Simply put, fuel does not atomize very well when in a cold "state". This is why there is "winter" blend fuels. Read up on volatility.

Reason why they do it is because: the rich condition burns much easier on a cold engine versus a hot engine. They also do this to pre-heat the cat, like I mentioned before. The materials used in a catalytic converter oxidize with the chemical CO(Otherwise called unburnt hydrocarbons or fuel). The reaction creates heat as a by-product and form CO2.
Air pumps commonly found on many vehicles add air into the exhaust stream to aid with oxidation. By pumping air into the exhaust stream - no way. (Imagine a fuel molecule and and air molecule passing through the exhaust, now it meets a second air molecule at the air pump injection point and now the three combine CO2)

The catalytic converter runs most efficient I believe upwards of 500-700*F, but it has to meet that temperature fairly quick to meet emissions standards. Hence adding fuel + air in some cases to quickly "pre-heat" the material. This is why they also idle the engine high on cold-start - to warm the engine, raise engine vacuum to pull in more air quickly.

However this is not efficient for the engine nor the catalytic converter to be: cold, have a lot of fuel, (and oxygen content in some cases). So after hours of research the automotive society of engineers found out that stoich or 14.7ish produces the least amount of emissions - weather its CO, CO2, NOx,etc. when the engine is at operating temperature.

Now there's lean-burn systems which I'm not even going to unravel.

I hope I answered some your questions since this really got off topic.

Like DS-Monster touched on: Your car lacks performance cold due to many reasons I wont bother to get in to, but being rich is one protecting factor in the equation. This goes back to my 100lb Rep quote.

Your last part of the quote contradicts itself. Rich meaning more fuel, more liquid then vapor would be more likely to "freeze"? Show me gasoline that can freeze.
Sequential injection has nothing to do with this. Sequential injection was designed after a batch of other shitty designs. It is sequential(one right after the other) with the intake stroke of each cylinder. Perhaps your thinking of cold-start injector?
Agreed, detonation is least likely to occur in a rich condition as opposed to lean - where most evident.