bellhousing cracked

[Mikelb]

Wow,

this is not what I had in mind. I've done a lot to the Talon, and had it running last weekend. It wasn't quite right, but I got stuff figured out, and was expecting to do a major update (full of good news) today. Well, I can't do that...


I had the Talon running 2 weekends ago. It was beautiful. I come to the conclusion that the AFC was fried along with the old ECU. had to rewire the ECU for stock operation. Then I got her started, after a host of last minute "I forgot to..." shtuff. It was a beautiful moment for me.


So the Talon's purring along, and I wanted to drive it to my house (it was sitting at my mom's house). Yeah, there was no getting the car into gear. My clutch didn't have nearly enough pressure. So I started the car in gear. The way it was facing, I had to drive into my mom's back yard and around the pool and trampoline, turn it around and drive back out. So, I would start it and go a little ways before turning it off, b/c the car was idling at a/b 3k RPM and wanting to speed forward. I went to start it and I heard nothing but the starter spinning. After looking around for a few, I realized that the starter wasn't engaging the flywheel. I assumed the solenoid was bad, and called it a day.

Last Saturday, I went to resume working on the car. I pulled the battery out (it was dead, I had been using the BMW battery) and the starter. I immediately knew what was wrong with the starter, but figured I might as well get it checked out. One of the wires had come undone and the starter would turn, but not engage the flywheel. So, I get the replacement battery (free, thank God for warranties). The starter tested out ok, so I got outta there.
Back at the car, I hooked the starter up, and within 10 min was trying to start 'er up. No such luck. I was getting no spark. Now I know damn well that the ignition coils are good, as well as the transistor pack and the ECU. So I go out and play with the CAS. I got the injectors to click and the car would spark, but I could never get the car to start.

I kept trying (yeah, I have perseverance, that or ignorance... either way, it's a disease) I could get it to spark once or twice here and there, but no start. All of a sudden the damn car made an aweful clanking noise, everytime it turned over. Fearing the worst, I had a friend go listen for the sound. He confirmed my fears and told me it was coming from the transmission side. I got him to crank the car while I listened. I noticed that the transmission jumped everytime the car turned over. Then the ####in' bellhousing cracked. This is the second transmission that its done that to. The first one I attributed to cheap clutch parts. Now I think it's more serious.

I ignored the clanking and got the car back around to the ramps (SUV ramps, BTW, for that extra clearance). I had to pull the bumper and intercooler piping off to get it up the ramps. It was getting dark and cold, so I called it a night. What do you guys think could be wrong? Bent crank? Crank Walk? Starting the car in gear? (I've never had a problem with doing that to other cars before) I don't understand... I haven't pulled it apart yet, but it's a bit on the cold side here... I'd like to know what to look for first anywayz.

Thanks,
-Mikelb

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Well you started the car in gear, thats what the problems is. You are applying alot of torques to the transmission when the car is not moving. Find out why you clutch won't disengage first, then replace the tranny, and stop trying to start the car that way. I SERIOUSLY doubt you got a bent crank, the car would do worse things then crack the bell housing. And it's not likely that you got cranks walk.

Check the CMC and the CSC for leaking, if they are fine. Then its probably the clutch fork/pivot ball assembly.

 

[Mikelb]

Well you started the car in gear, thats what the problems is. You are applying alot of torques to the transmission when the car is not moving. Find out why you clutch won't disengage first, then replace the tranny, and stop trying to start the car that way. I SERIOUSLY doubt you got a bent crank, the car would do worse things then crack the bell housing. And it's not likely that you got cranks walk.

Check the CMC and the CSC for leaking, if they are fine. Then its probably the clutch fork/pivot ball assembly.

I've never had a problem with starting a car in gear before, and I did that to my Stealth(heavy car). I believe that the clutch isn't fully disengaging because it needs to be bled more. I just replaced the fork, pivot, throw out bearing, tob clip, stainless line, rebuilt slave. I think a good bleeding and possibly pedal adjustment will work. I was just trying to get it to my house to finish it (I live 2 houses down from my mom, but I have more tools and space at my house).

The CSC was just rebuilt, and the CMC is fine, I see no leaks. The car held perfect pressure before I tore it down.

How about the possibility of a bent input shaft? I was reading yesterday and read something that said this could be feasible. Sounds like a possibility to me, I just want to know why it ran fine without this problem the previous weekend.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Starting the car that way in never a good idea, for one it puts additional load on the starter that it wasn't designed to handle, this doesn't mean that it won't start or push the car, most cases it will. Also you may damaged components of the drive train. Like in this instance.

A worn input shaft is possible if it was one transmission. But the likelihood of it happening to more then one transmissions suggest that it is something else. Fully bleed the system. There is a trick I came up with to insure that the old fluid was completely bleed. Take some food coloring (I used blue, it was easy to identify) and put one drop in it. Mix the fluid so the color is uniform in the resevior. Pump the old fluid from the CSC using a vacuume line (can be bought at any auto parts store by the foot) into a coke bottle, keep bleeding the clutch line until you see the colored fluid come up. You have to keep an eye on the resevior to make sure that it doesn't go dry and end up sucking more air into the line. Replace the transmission and go from there. Also make sure the dowel pins (there actually sleeves, but are called pins) are in the engine block were the two buttom bolts hold the tranny to the engine. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of the dowel pins/sleeves.

 

[Mikelb]

Starting the car that way in never a good idea, for one it puts additional load on the starter that it wasn't designed to handle, this doesn't mean that it won't start or push the car, most cases it will. Also you may damaged components of the drive train. Like in this instance.

I realize it is additional load on the starter, though IMHO it shouldn't do anymore damage to the vehicle than launching it once. This whole drivetrain was new. (Well, transmission was used, but my old one was replaced with this one)

A worn input shaft is possible if it was one transmission. But the likelihood of it happening to more then one transmissions suggest that it is something else.

The old transmission was completely fine. The internals and shaft are ok, the bellhousing was destroyed because of a throwout bearing failure(clutch fork and pivot were broken as well).

Fully bleed the system. There is a trick I came up with to insure that the old fluid was completely bleed. Take some food coloring (I used blue, it was easy to identify) and put one drop in it. Mix the fluid so the color is uniform in the resevior. Pump the old fluid from the CSC using a vacuume line (can be bought at any auto parts store by the foot) into a coke bottle, keep bleeding the clutch line until you see the colored fluid come up. You have to keep an eye on the resevior to make sure that it doesn't go dry and end up sucking more air into the line. Replace the transmission and go from there. Also make sure the dowel pins (there actually sleeves, but are called pins) are in the engine block were the two buttom bolts hold the tranny to the engine. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of the dowel pins/sleeves.

That is a good idea. I am definitely going to do a complete bleed. I'm going to try and salvage this transmission, as I have the internals from my old one that are completely fine.

I didn't even think about the dowel pins. I know a little about these transmissions, as I rebuilt the one in my Stealth (F5m33 )

I appreciate the help, I probably won't get a chance to work on the car until tomorrow. I'm going to attempt to get it onto the ramps tonight, but it's 48°F now and raining.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Nice weather.

I found the old pics.

Here is my wifes old eclipse (93 GS with 90 turbo motor in it)

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Here is my 90 talon

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I would also like to refer you to this thread and this thread. In both these threads I lead a charge against ACT where I was preparing a class action law suit against ACT. In the end, I did my own test (see page 6, post 168). And found that the lack of these dowel pins/sleeves will cause severe damage to the drivetrain.

 

[Mikelb]

Dude, you are a f'in lifesaver. I think I just found the problem. I'm 99% certain there are no pins on my motor. And if I'm not mistaken, the front hole(to the right of the 2nd pic) broke off the block when the old transmission grenaded. WTC am I s'posed to do now?

Do you know the sizes of those dowel pins?

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Dude, you are a f'in lifesaver. I think I just found the problem. I'm 99% certain there are no pins on my motor. And if I'm not mistaken, the front hole(to the right of the 2nd pic) broke off the block when the old transmission grenaded. WTC am I s'posed to do now?

Do you know the sizes of those dowel pins?

I'm glad that helped. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about the damage now. This would go back to the damage that starting your car in gear might cause. You can try welding it, but the rotation of the crank will always be in the direction of the break. So it will keep breaking and relatively easy, you need to replace the block in its entirity. If you have rebuilt a F5M33, then swapping out blocks should be easy.

I don't know the size off the top of my head, they are universal between 1g N/T and turbo 2.0L Blocks, as well as the 2g 2.0L turbo, MAYBE even the 2.4L block found in the N/T Spyders. HELL, They xshould be in EVERY 90-99 4G series block that Mistubishi made.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

I got some good news, I saved a bunch of money on car insur-----


Sorry, force of habit.....


I have a 91 Bare block here. I am in VA so I am relatively close and I don't have a need for it since I ALSO have a spare 90 motor and my talon is a 90. You can have it for $100.

 

[boosted spartan]

yea sounds like you didnt have any dowel pins in there, i broke off one of those ears on my block because i didnt have the front dowel pin in there...sucked major monkey balls...

 

[TSG59_Steve]

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread... I don't have dowel pins in my new motor.

 

[Mikelb]

I got some good news, I saved a bunch of money on car insur-----


Sorry, force of habit.....


I have a 91 Bare block here. I am in VA so I am relatively close and I don't have a need for it since I ALSO have a spare 90 motor and my talon is a 90. You can have it for $100.

"All that money that I saved with Geico went to a new motor for my DSM. Next year, I'll be buying a transmission..."

, j/k

I would take you up on your offer, but I went to the shop last night and talked with my boys a little. He offered to trade me his Talon (front is got some damage beneath the radiator) and about $1500 in parts for my rims (I bought them off of him awhile back for $400).

Included in this trade: 1991 Talon TSI AWD ATX, 3" exhaust, various manifolds (I think 2 intake and 3 exhaust), a few MAFs, 1- 2G MAF, T3 Garret 50-trim (water cooled), New heads(got to wait on them to be finished), Freshly rebuilt bottom end, 4-bolt rear, plus a ton of other shtuff... He has a whole wall dedicated to DSM parts. He's giving me all of them.

I'm about to partake on a year long project. Including cutting the front off of my Talon and chopping it on the AWD($600). Engine build, 50-trim, etc...
I'm setting my goals low, I want at least 12's. (I say low, b/c I saw this to be readily attainable in the FWD I had, with an LSD and the 50-trim I already had).

 

[Mikelb]

Hey, I hate bringing back old threads, but I want to give an update.

I dropped the trans last night (in 1.5hr I might add, not bad for the car sitting on rims[like it's on cinder blocks, they don't fit] and in the driveway). Wow was I a bit disappointed.

There was definitely no dowel pins in the transmission. The bell housing is only slightly cracked on the transmission, it can be salvaged. On the inside of the bell housing there were marks from the flywheel hitting the housing. I rotated the input shaft of the trans, it is perfect, no problems there.

I looked at the engine block. The clutch was way off center, and there was clutch dust everywhere. The pressure plate no longer stuck out like it was supposed to, it looked like the clutch was being pressed in all the time. I pulled the clutch off, and I was quite impressed at the damage done. The friction material on the pucks were pretty much destroyed and glazed. There was one puck where the friction material had literally been ripped off. The springs had been worn and grinding against something. The edge of the pucks had been mucked up, from where they had hit the flywheel(it looked like a lawnmower blade after it had been used at a rock quarry). The pins that hold the clutch springs to the puck side had pretty much been torn from their places, there were only 2 (IIRC) holding the clutch together. The flywheel had some friction material (as well as the pressure plate) on it, it looked as though the material had been forced so hard into it that the two had bonded (but no heat marks).

Looking at the starter plate, hah, that's a joke. The plate was a complete loss, on the front side (towards bumper) it had been completely mauled. On the block, I confirmed that one of the tabs/ears that broke off was for a dowel pin.

One thing I did note, when taking out the transmission, I only counted removing two bolts (not including the starter bolts). IIRC, there are supposed to be four. Is that correct?

This transmission seems ok, and it seems that for a few hundred, I could have the car running again... I am dreading cutting and chopping it, because it was a great car. Looking for some advice, go ahead and cut and weld to the AWD, or get the FWD running, and get the front off a wrecked car for the AWD?

I'm really lost and have little hope left. Sorry for no pics, I have some, but the cell cam is crap, and the digital got stolen.