auto cross suspension

[eclipsegst3131]

Are you looking to buy just one set of tires for daily driving and autocrossing? Do you guys ever get really heavy rain or snow where you are? Let me know and I'll help you find a good tire.

yeah im lookin to just get one set and yes weve been getting tons of snow so far this winter and we definitely get rain spring and summer....but i dont plan on getting new tires until winter is over. and im also thinking about getting a daily driver/beater for rainy crappy days. so basically the car will only be driven in the dry at least 90% of the time. im going to end up getting the 2g chrome 5 spoke wheels which are a 16x7 (correct me if im wrong). what size tires and what tires would you suggest? i heard some good things about the hankook ventus rs2 z212's....

 

[bjones18]

Don't get me wrong, upgrades can be great & fun.

Value = function/cost. look for function at the lowest cost for good value. Adjustable shocks are a nice thing to have if you autocross. Shocks are designed to be replaced. Make sure you keep the jounce bumpers.

Bushings on the other hand, are a bit more complicated. Generally, they are not designed to be replaced. If you know exacty what you are doing, do it. If you are going to hack & whack chances are that you may introduce more problems than you fix.

Given a need to replace bushings, I would either 1. use the stock bushing-arm, 2. modify the arm to accept an alt steel-sleeved-rubber-bush. or 3. replace it with a cross-axis ball-joint.

 

[stirpicult]

For now, I'll probably just replace the stock suspension with oem parts from the dealer/ autozone or something. From what i understand from you guys, the stock suspension is plenty efficient for autocross and is better to learn on. I definately want to learn as much as possible.

i am sure that the oem replacement crap costs way more than it should. take a look at scca rules for autox. you may be able to use better struts and shocks than that and still run in stock classes. (check page 63 of the rulebook. scca.org. it seems like you can use adjustable struts/shocks.)

im going to end up getting the 2g chrome 5 spoke wheels which are a 16x7 (correct me if im wrong). what size tires ....

the chrome ones would be heavy, and on a 7 inch rim the most i would run is a 225.

 

[eclipsegst3131]

the chrome ones would be heavy, and on a 7 inch rim the most i would run is a 225.

i wanna stay with mitsubishi/eagle rims, what are the lightest stock rims made?

 

[my_precious]

http://members.shaw.ca/costall/1000Q/answers-specifications.htm

1G
16" alloy
19 lbs

1G
16" mesh
19 lbs

also, wheelweights.net could be helpful.

 

[LONEWOLF01]

I always wonder on changeing the bushing on my car but cost would determine its fate i think that energy suspension bushings may be cheaper than stock. i have a 1990 eagle talon i know my bushings are shot.

i would change the bushing before shocks, springs do it once and do it right!!!

 

[my_precious]

HAHAHA. This is great. I am freakin retarded some times. I was going through old threads and I saw this one and wanted to review it. I read what I posted and noticed why you guys where asking the questions you were. "full stock suspension" "at first with oem parts" , wow.

Ok, to clear some things up:

I meant replace the 15 year old crappy shocks and bushings with new factory stuff. I figured springs wont change much over time so why buy new springs from the dealer? Anyways, its kinda hard to know how a talon drives when your judgeing it on broken suspension parts. If it was all new, you could drive it just as if you had baught it from the factory and then decided, is this good, or should I get better aftermarket pieces. This is why I was trying to find out how good the stock dsms drive...was it worth spending 500 or so on new bushings, and shocks and what not, OR replaceing the broken stuff right out with say, konis or tein or something (and new springs like eibach etc).

Of course, tires are one of the most inportant things you could do for handling, but imo, you need the basics first, before putting on sticky 500-700 dollar tires on there. Basics like the suspension, anti-roll bars, brakes, and maybe even some light weight wheels.

So, to bring this thread back to life, after explaining myself, I have a question. For any car I've ever researched, Konis are always the stuff to get. From Dodge, to Porsche, Konis are a good thing to get. Now for my question. Tein sells their basic coil over set up for 750 (4 shocks and springs and some other stuff). I have a max of about 800-1000 when I start to upgrade my suspension, so I was thinking I could either get this set up, or spend the money on Konis and springs which isnt a full coil over set up. Another thing with Konis is that they aren't adjustable as much...isnt it the rears you have to remove from the car? When I get my car finished up, I want it to ride on rails. I dont much care for comfort on the street, as long as its not to the point where it is so stiff that you can feel it when you run over a quarter. It doesnt have to be a pro quality suspension either, because for one, I dont have that kind of money, and two, I dont have much experience with driving, ESPECIALLY with adjusting suspensions. I want to get into the whole track event thing, but I need suspension that works, even if its just OEM parts. So, now that I've typed all of this, any comments?

Everything needs to be replaced eventually. I have a 1990, so pretty much everything does now. Bushings, Shocks, Struts, Springs (maybe) etc. I could go with some REALLY expensive stuff, and not have enough for bushings or something, or i could downgrade a little and still beat miatas at the track, and have enough for everything. OK, maybe not miatas, but you get my point.

 

[zephyr_8]

ok, read this its a very good thread on handling for our old 1gs
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138306&highlight=cusco

As far as tein...I've never personally been much of a fan of them, or the other "import coil-overs" themselves. Don't get me wrong good coilover kits like hot-bits, Jics, etc I think are very very worthwhile. I just think for the money a set of konis/ground control coilover kit would work as well or better, than teins or the like. Maybe I'm biased, maybe I'm dumb, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, but I just don't like teins. I would love to have a set of hot-bits though.

Learn to drive well and you will beat miatas. With a little bit of prep(ok a hell of a lot of prep) I was beating a lot of cars at the local autocross. I know I wouldn't be competive on a national level but thats not what I'm going for. The local guys were very impressed with my times, and my friends(driving my car). The talon will be even faster next season, I have a lot of things planned. There aren't a whole lot of parts on my car that are non-stock, but there are alot of parts that are heavily modified. That and a ton of weight reduction the car actually handles amazingly considering the stock shocks/springs/bushings/swaybars.

 

[mavisky]

I've always looked at TEIN in the same light as Eibach. An ok suspension company with a killer marketing program going for it.

 

[my_precious]

, well I some what agree with you, but tein's website looks like the old amazon website when internet was first created...

Anyways, that is what I planned too, strip it out AFTER i got suspension, otherwise if I do it now it'll look like a rally car. I was going to do a roll cage too eventually, but after I get my talon running well (soon hopefully) I am going to sell/part out my other car, which I'm sure I can get about 800 out of it, maybe 1000. Anyways, say I went with a spring over strut set up. Konis the best for the money? What springs should I get for it? I always here "konis" but never springs really, its always a toss up when it comes to springs it seems.

 

[zephyr_8]

look around, I see Konis listed with ground control alot. I'm not trying to be a "search" dick, I just figured you would want to see peoples opinion for yourself. I find Jtmcinder's posts to be really informative. Just because your car is stripped doesn't mean it has to look it. Throw some carpet in the back, cover the back of the interior, and move on. My car looks pretty nice inside but its not completly stripped, although i have removed everything I could.

 

[my_precious]

the back seat is already removed, along with the spare. there is some carpet down so it doesnt look bad. but i was talking, remove everything, door panels, etc, including sound dampening materials... I'll do some research on suspensions before i buy of course, and thanks for the help.

 

[jtmcinder]

Given that this is an autocrossing thread, you might also want to read the Solo2 rules. What you are talking about doing will bump you to F/Prepared and you will have zero chance of winning there, even if you are Daddio.

- Jtoby

 

[my_precious]

Yeah, I figured that. Ive read up on it a little. Mods puts you in the pro modified class = raped, but stock puts you in a decent stock competeing class. Unfortunately for me, I wont have a stock dsm...its just not in my nature . I probaby wont autox unless its just for fun, but I will be at gingerman raceway a few times I'm sure. It's not like I'll compete, but rather just have fun and get better at driveing. I am good right now, but I dont take corners at 80mph, I dont have that kind of car, or that kind of confidence....yet. There is a good raceing school program at gingerman. It costs about 275 and you bring your car and a helmet, and they teach you. I also have a friend in chicago that, if i get my car ready for spring, he will give me some pointers too. I just want my car to handle like a corvette or a 911 turbo. If it costs too much, I want to get it as close as possible with the money I have.

 

[Slapnut]

my $.02

upgrades:

#1 - driver, the car is only as good as the driver.
#2 - tires, wo/ good tires it is pointless.
#3 - suspension, new shocks/struts, swaybar links, bushings.
#4 - drivetrain, more hp/torque, transmission upgrade, axles.
#5 - rollcage, will stiffn the car, 5pnt harness. <-- this should be the main thing SAFTEY
#6 - lite'n the car, remove rear seats, interior and what not.

 

[zephyr_8]

I agree with that list...I don't think I would do it in exactly that order though.

 

[my_precious]

Well, I was reading somewheres on here that if you upgraded the suspension BEFORE power, or even the drivetrain after it will change dramatically, and you might have to get a different suspension set up. For example, adding diffs. Also, how do eagle gt2s on 1gb aluminum rims rate? The tires have maybe a cm of tred left.

Another thing I read was 5 pt. harnesses are ONLY good for the track. They are designed to be used with a haans device and roll cage (not necissarily a roll cage though). You use this on the street, or even on the track without a haans (sp?) and you will have your neck snapped the moment you have an accident.

 

[eclipsegst3131]

you can use harnesses on the street. you just have to mount them above your shoulders or at shoulder height i believe.

 

[my_precious]

I've read that too, but I dont think its true. The stock seat belts are meant to sort of give you some slack when you hit, hence why it locks up after a second. I dont know hwo it works really. Harnesses are bolted in and have NO play. This holds you in so you could be up side down, and still firmly planted in your seat. Dale Earnheart, as much as I hate Nascar, died because of something like this. As far as I know though, without a Haans device, 5 pt harnesses are dangerous.

 

[jtmcinder]

Dale Earnhardt Sr was known for wearing his belts loose, not tight, so you have this exactly backwards. But we digress.

- Jtoby

 

[GreenGSX]

Just to keep things clear what I mean by "a touch of toe out" for the rear is 1/8" of total toe out. That's 1/16" of toe out for each wheel. That little bit of toe out does not make the car "twitchy as hell" or unsafe over 50mph. I would never recommend a set-up that is dangerous. How do I know? I've used that exact toe-out setup on my car for years. That same car I drove to work everyday, autocrossed 20+ events a year, and did 130+ mph at Watkins Glen. I've used that alignment on H&R/AGX combo along with DSS coilovers/Koni set-up that I currently use. Toe out is super important when you are trying to get a 1G to stop plowing and start oversteering. That's why I recommended it.

I have since switched to 0 toe in rear because at the track under super hard braking the car would nose dive a bit and the rear would get a "little wiggle". The 0 toe along with raising the front ride height fixed that for me.

 

[jtmcinder]

Hey, Tim, let's take this up a notch. How much toe-out (if any) you can run safely depends on generation and how stiff your suspension is. As just pointed out, under hard braking the tail can get light and twitchy. How twitchy depends in part on how much the tail rises; that's where suspension stiffness comes in. On a 2G, for example, which toes out under compression and toes in under extension, you can get a away with a bit more rear toe-out when you are softly sprung, because you will get some toe in when you brake and the tail comes up. 1Gs don't toe in as much on extension, so you have to keep the rear toe closer to zero.

Note: on 2Gs, another popular set-up trick to help combat understeer is what is known as "stink bug mode," with the rear about an inch higher than the front to keep the rear roll center up.

- Jtoby

 

[mavisky]

My Precious, both of your points contain alot of hearsay in them.

1. Any suspension that needs to be upgraded again due to added power was simply not the proper suspension in the first place. Know what you want to achieve and purchase accordingly. If you want a 500hp+ drag car, lowered stock car, or a good autox car the suspension setup will be different as far as spring rates, alignment, and other adjustable items.

2. I feel just as safe in my Sparco 4 points (soon to be upgraded to 5 point harnesses) on the street as I do in my stock seatbelts. Having removed the sliding track and seeing the manner in which it attaches to the chassis (3 8x1.25 bolts) I'm surprised it stays attached to much of anything in an accident. Your neck is no more likely to snap in a car accident with a 4 or 5 point than it would with the stock belts. Dale Earnhardt died after hitting a concrete wall at 160+mph with loose belts and no HANS device. Don't hit walls at 160+ and you probably won't die either. Hell hitting a wall at 160+ in a dsm with a Hans device, airbags, and a 5 point harness properlly mounted to a cage and you're still probably going to come out of it screwed up some.

 

[GreenGSX]

I am OK taking it up a notch but maybe we should split this "rear toe" topic into another thread so as not to confuse the origonal point of the thread.

My knowledge is soley 1G AWD biased so that's all I can comment on. 1/8" of toe out is not that much and was not the sole cause of my "wiggle" under hard braking. Also, keep in mind that my hard braking is with big brakes, track tires, and high speeds. Factor in that I like to trail brake to help rotate the car and my issues with rear toe don't really apply to a simple upgrade to a worn out stock suspesion. They also don't apply to daily driving and autocrossing.

Here is some more food for thought. 1G AWD cars have active toe due to the rubber isolated front mount in the trailing arms. It is identical to the mount used in the 4-wheel steering on the Galant VR4 so they "can" move the rear toe enough to change how the car handles. Under braking the rear wheels can move in the toe-in direction while under acceleration they want to move toe-out. Also, over a ruff surface the rear of a AWD 1G can be unpredicable do to the toe and everything else for that matter moving around. That's why some people, including myself, weld up the trailing arms to get rid of the unpredicability of the rear toe. For autocrossing with a stock unwelded trailing arm you want toe-out to combat the natural tendency for the outside rear wheel going toe-in due to the compression of the trailing arm bushing and the upward travel of the suspesnsion. If you think about which way the loaded rear tire is pointing mid-turn it becomes an advantage to have that tire not pointing in the same direction as the fronts. If it does, it will try to push the back of the car forward which will make the front tires do more work and lower the maximum speed through the turn. If the loaded rear wheel is pointing the rear of the car outward the car will rotate and the front tires won't have to work as hard maintain tracking and the you can go faster in the turn. There is a fine line to the whole deal and far to many factors to put a fine point of how much toe will work for everyone. I think that if you set the rear toe to 0 you'll be fine but I prefer, and recommend, a bit of toe out.

None of that matters much to the guy who wants to upgrade an old suspension and go do some autocrossing. In fact I think that until you get to the very limit of what 1G car will do autocrossing leaving the trailing arms stock (not welded) is faster and easier to drive. I just happen to think they rotate better with a bit of toe out in the back.

 

[my_precious]

mavisky, What I said was basically what I knew about the situation, and a lot of it was just what I heard or read. I brought it up to be clarified.

This thread is another example of why I love DSMs and this website. There aren't many boards like this where people know so much and are willing to help you out. AWESOME. That is the only way to describe this site. Thankyou.

On another note;
So, if I got some Koni's and some certain spring [eibach, tein, whatever] I'd be good to go as far as suspension. I mean, poly bushings or even rubber bushings are a given, you need those or replaceing shocks are pointless. What I'm trying to say is, just getting that set up is in my price range, and will be much better than stock, and possibly better than the tein coil over set up i was talking about earilier (basic 750 dollar one).

The story of me getting into DSMs is a long one. But, at one point, I was thinking about getting a 944. I read a lot into them, and on the porsche forums, they told me the cars could get beat by minivans but if you put on Konis for about 500, the thing would drive like it was on rails...still be slow, but smoke in the corners. I figured for 800 or so (springs, shocks and bushings) I'd be able to get my talon to handle like that. Getting the car to the point where it cant drive any worse than I drive it is my goal. Haveing a crappy old suspension that hasnt even seen use in 1 year (car sat for awhile) might be a hinderance when driving hard. My other car was like this too, and it is horribly bumpy and rattles alot. It has GREAT steering and turns where you want it, but driving down the road....man it sucks.

Anyways, I love comeing here to threads like this and reading up on suspensions or whatever from people who have actually done it and know there stuff. You guys are great.