anyone ever heard of this? better mpg this easily? (acetone dreams)

[speedy_talon28]

we have 89 91 93 or 95 octane. you mean you can only choose 91 octane? well, you can always use nx (nitrous oxide) or (nos) octane booster. if that's your cup of tea

 

[Locke]

Or any other octane booster, or you can make your own.
edit: We used to be able to buy 110 (at Pierre Moran) but I don't know if they still sell it.

I notice you are from Elkhart, IN. Never seen you around. Did you turbo your 1gnt yourself? Me and a buddy are building a 1gnt right now. PM me.

 

[speedy_talon28]

sorry I forgot to update my profile, I got frustrated with the tubo and because the lack of money, I turned a 50 trim turbo into a centrifugal supercharger. The highest octane I found was 98 octane at shell on cass

 

[speedy_talon28]

I was begining to think that I was the only one from elkhart on here (hahaha)

 

[tkelly27]

The higher the octane the lower the fuel mileage. Choose the lowest octane gas that doesn't give you pinging. Or, if your paranoid, run what you are running.

 

[Hop]

The higher the octane the lower the fuel mileage. Choose the lowest octane gas that doesn't give you pinging. Or, if your paranoid, run what you are running.

Where'd you get that info? If the higher octane allowed you to run more boost and then you couldn't avoid being a lead foot then yes, I'll agree.

Octane boosters are not really gaining you much. Check the label. 104 is just it's name. No amount of it will ever raise the octane rating to 104. These additives usually only gain you a few TENTHs of an octane like 93 to 93.4. When they say raises octane by up to 4 points, they mean 0.4.

Sunoco makes a 100 octane no lead (plenty of leaded fuels are higher). That's the highest I've seen around here (Indy) and you can't find it at any pump. You need to buy it directly from a fuel distributor.

 

[Talesin]

Hop, yes. The octane point system was discussed a few times earlier in the thread.

 

[dsm-onster]

Don't forget another "additive": water or water/alky injection. This significantly raises effective octane at the combustion chamber. great intercooler as well. one kit and cheap winter mix wiper fluid does wonders w/ pump gas. And is far cheaper over the long haul.

 

[matthewdesigns]

How's the toluene working out for you so far? Notice anything different?

I added 1 gallon of toluene to 13 gal of pump 91 (which raised total octane to 92.6). Butt dyno says it's hitting harder north of 4k, especially on upshifts from 2-3 and 3-4.

Logged a couple of runs preliminarily, and am seeing 2* more advance at 6.5K (which is where I usually shift anyway...timing drops off for me above that). Will log a few more runs to see if it's consistent. Then I'll turn the boost up and see how it goes.

I also found some 111 leaded gas locally. I'm gonna try some of that next tank as an additive, as it's way cheaper than the toluene ($4.45/gal vs. $15!). Three gallons of 111 for the same price of one gallon of toluene will bump me up to 95. Will report on any differences. And no, I don't have a cat to clog up

 

[romeen]

I added 1 gallon of toluene to 13 gal of pump 91 (which raised total octane to 92.6). Butt dyno says it's hitting harder north of 4k, especially on upshifts from 2-3 and 3-4.

Logged a couple of runs preliminarily, and am seeing 2* more advance at 6.5K (which is where I usually shift anyway...timing drops off for me above that). Will log a few more runs to see if it's consistent. Then I'll turn the boost up and see how it goes.

I also found some 111 leaded gas locally. I'm gonna try some of that next tank as an additive, as it's way cheaper than the toluene ($4.45/gal vs. $15!). Three gallons of 111 for the same price of one gallon of toluene will bump me up to 95. Will report on any differences. And no, I don't have a cat to clog up

That's a great price for 111. Makes better sense than using the toluene since it has gotten so expensive. Keep us updated.

Good work.

 

[calreef18]

That NOS racing octane booster works, I put it in a couple days ago and was able to lean out my safc 2-3% more across the board, and that's only after having time to do a couple runs. I might be able to pull out even more.

 

[romeen]

Well, all of you guys who recommended the NOS Racing Formula octane booster may well have a valid point. I found this interesting write up:

http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0503ec_octane_boosters_tested/

At the bottom of the page you can see the compared results between the NOS, toluene, and one other octane booster. Ounce for ounce the NOS clearly had the biggest punch. In summary,

When 0.8 oz. of the NOS formula was added to 1 gallon of 91 octane (the base gasoline actually tested at 91.2) the resulting octane was 93.7

When 0.83 oz. of toluene was added to 1 gallon of the same gas the result was 91.4

However, the NOS is also significantly more expensive than toluene (ounce per ounce). I was at 3 different auto stores today. The price for the NOS 12 oz. bottle ranged from $10.99 to $12.99. The price for 128 oz. (1 gallon) of toluene is $15 at a local paint store. So the NOS works out to about $1 per ounce or $128/gallon! Still, you will need significantly less volume than toluene to get similar end results. I'm too lazy right now to do the math and figure out which one works out better when you consider price and effectiveness per unit volume.

The NOS clearly is a very good product but at $128/gallon on average it better be.

 

[matthewdesigns]

That's a great price for 111. Makes better sense than using the toluene since it has gotten so expensive. Keep us updated.

Good work.

I finally went through the tank of toluene/91 mix, and tried a mix of 112 leaded/91 unleaded today. I'm not going back to toluene, that's for sure.

The most advance I saw on the toluene mix was 2* at 6500rpm. With the new mix (100 octane total) I'm seeing an extra 5* at 6500. I'd guess that if I added more toluene I could see similar numbers, but not for $15/gal So for now, I'll stick to the 112 for $4.45/gal. I can basically run a 100 octane mix through my car for $3.70/gal. Better than the 104 unleaded I can get for $7/gal, and WAY better than the toluene.

After the first couple of pulls, I cranked the boost up by 3psi (to 18psi), and I'm still seeing the same extra 5* (20* advance at 6500rpm). I'm kinda scared to turn it up any farther (I'm on stock injectors), but damn if I'm not tempted! Logic tells me that if I've got that much advance, I can turn up the pressure. If anyone can tell me why it's safe to go any farther with boost levels, please do (mods are current). Otherwise, I'll be happy with this setup until I can get some larger injectors.

I'll log some more pulls and see if it gets any better...those first logs were just a few miles after the new mix.

 

[romeen]

I agree that considering how expensive toluene and xylene have gotten you're better off just getting race gas. Most of the articles recommending these additives were written when the price of toluene was around $5/gallon. At that price I can see how it would have made sense.

For anyone who may be interested, I was curious what some of the off the shelf additives contain so I pulled the MSDS on a couple of them and here are the exact ingredients:


BERRYMAN B-12 CHEMTOOL "TOTAL FUEL SYSTEM CLEANUP" (#2616)

Toluene 35-40%
Acetone 20-25%
Methanol 10-15%
Hexane 5-7%
Xylene 1-5%
Methyl Ethyl Ketone 1-5%
2-Butoxyethanol 1-5%
Isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol) 1-5%




NOS RACING FORMULA OCTANE BOOSTER (#12010)

Kerosine ~60%
Tricarbonyl Manganese ~10%
Proprietary Polymer Mixture ~5%
Petroleum Distillates, Hydrotreated Light ~5%
Naptha Solvent, Heavy Aromatic ~5%
Naptha Solvent, Light Aromatic ~5%
Stoddard Solvent ~5%
Xylene ~5%

What I found most interesting about the NOS formula is that the main ingredient (kerosine) has a very low octane value of 15-25. It's Autoignition Temperature (which correlates positively with octane value) is 410*F. For comparison's sake here are the autoignition temps (in Farenheit) of some other chemicals related to this thread:

Toluene 849*
Xylene 867*
Gasoline 536*
Methanol 725*
Acetone 869*
Naptha 1022*
Benzene 1040*

Note that benzene is still considered on of the very best octane enhancers but is banned because it is highly carcinogenic.

I am currently experimenting with acetone as a fuel additive. Not to increase octane but to decrease surface tension of the gas leading to better vaporization. I added 3 oz. (60 ml) of 100% acetone to 10 gallons. I haven't used it long enough to draw any conclusions but so far it seems that the car is running noticeably smoother and off boost response is better. But it could be placebo effect or just variables as far as environmental conditions. I'll keep you guys updated.

 

[Locke]

Yay! This thread is getting technical!

I am interested in your experiments with acetone.

 

[gsxtacy]

I have been running Toluene mixed in with "premium" 90 octane here in New Mexico for quite some time....up to 30% of a tank...

Toluene does not atomize very well in cold weather. If the Ambient Temp is over 70*, it will atomize better....R/M2 octane on toluene is 114 raw.

I have seen 28 psi with no pinging and good burn characteristics on NGK BR7ES plugs
@ .028".

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[romeen]

Yay! This thread is getting technical!

I am interested in your experiments with acetone.

I plan on trying the acetone for a few tankfuls. Then I'm going to try a acetone/xylene mix.

I may even get up the courage to try a few dissolved naphthalene mothballs. From what I have read this is questionable as to whether it will provide any benefit but it also seems benign if used in small quantities. So at the worst it won't do anything. If I do it I will mix in some Red Line SI-1 for good measure to combat potential carbon deposits.

Toluene does not atomize very well in cold weather. If the Ambient Temp is over 70*, it will atomize better....R/M2 octane on toluene is 114 raw.QUOTE]


As mentioned some acetone mixed with the toluene may help it to vaporize better. So far my impression of the acetone added to the gas is very positive. Car seems to run smoother and quieter.

 

[JamiesTSI]

Gsxtacy: Have you tried buying your Toluene in 5 gallon cans?

I myself buy it in 5 gallon cans @ $6.89 a gallon.

 

[romeen]

Gsxtacy: Have you tried buying your Toluene in 5 gallon cans?

I myself buy it in 5 gallon cans @ $6.89 a gallon.

That's a fantastic price. From where?

 

[JamiesTSI]

Sherwin Williams.

Get them to open a contractors account for you. Which is free to do. Get Toluene for $6.89 a gallon when bought in 5 gallon containers.

 

[MarkAngelo05]

!! How funny... Earlier today I finally found a place that sells Toluene in hawaii! It also happens to be Sherwin Williams. It was like 16.00 for a Gallon, and for a 5 gallon "Pail" it came out to 7.44 a gallon including tax. Also, the dude just gave me the contractor price. So I thought what the heck, why not just spend 20 more bux and get 5 gallons just incase I like it! I can't wait to try it out. See if it makes a difference in my timing curve/knock issues, and I'm going to lean out the a/f from 10:1 to 11:1 and see what happens! Right now, I KNOCK at 10:1 a/f 20psi around 5.5k rpms and up on 92 OCTANE. I'm going to do 1 gallon mixed with some ATF or Marvel Mystery oil... I hope its okay to skip the mineral spirits that you should put in.. like Kerosene...
Mark
Here it is sittin in my spare bedroom!(due to IT BEING SO HOT outside, I have to keep it inside ### I don't have a garage)

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[MarkAngelo05]

I just tried it out earlier today... Mixed ONE gallon today in our plastic gas can with 4 Oz of Marvel Mystery Oil. When I went to the gas station, the toluene pretty much deteriorated the rubber seal for the nozzle on the gas can and dried the cap up so much that it ended up cracking when I opened it... Even though, I still went ahead and poured it in my tank...and a lot of it spilled out due to the cracked cap, Maybe around 6 oz of it spilled out. I had about a gallon in my tank since the needle was on empty for about 20 miles and the fuel light was on.. I pumped in about 4 more gallons of 92 octane. This gave me approximately a total of 95.66 octane..

I drove it normal for about 8 miles just to see how my engine would act, and it seemed to not really make much of a difference. I finally got to open it up, and I gotta say that this works.. My EGT's are lower during cruise, usually around 1200F, but now is around 1050F. During my wide open pull I just paid attention to the wideband.. I was dead on around 10.5:1 air fuel.. so I decided to lean it out just a bit, because I WASN'T getting any knock, and I was revving 2nd and 3rd gears to 7k rpms.. Intake air temp was 90 degrees, I'm using an 18G ported/clipped turbo with a decent sized FMIC. @ 20 PSI of boost peaking 32lbs/min of air by 6k rpms.

The engine sounds a little different during WOT HIGH SPEED PULLS in 2nd and 3rd gear.. kind of a more hollow sound.. I'm also not running a catalytic converter.. But its definitely smoother, and definitely pics up much quicker... my MPH gauge looks like the RPM gauge while at WOT... NEEDLE JUST CLIMBING QUICK.. I'll take a video of it one day when there's not many cops and people on the freeway.

On the performance/safety side of not experiencing knock, IT IS DEFFINATELY WORTH IT! But its is costly..

I just hope it does not cause any trouble on my fuel system seals and what not.

I'll be using this mix next time I get the cash to dyno.

Mark

 

[gsxtacy]

worry not bretheren. Its only downside is the price.....buy it 5 gallons at a time and it IS a pretty good deal!

Like mentioned before, I "usually" run it around 30% (like 3.5 gallons to a tank ) but have run as high as 50% with no problems what so ever.


The weather in my Region is all screwy right now, or I would going to the track tonight maybe tommorow

 

[kidrabbit84]

I have used super 104 octane booster in my 84 GTi with 12:1 CR. This stuff is junk. Like most folks stated here it only raises your octane a few tenths of a point. I was able to run the car on cold nights with this stuff mixed with 93 at Denver's altitude of 5500 ft. When I did the SCCA Nationals Test n Tune in Topeka (near 2000 ft and 80 deg F) two years ago she pinged like a bastard. I had to drain the tank at the hotel and top her off with 110.

I cringe at these home brews, even when my GTi's got all forged goodies in the bottom end. Why not run Sunoco's 100 GT unleaded gas. 30 bucks gets you 5 gals which is enough for a test and tune night at the strip and fun then next day or so. It might be a bit more in cost, but its cheaper than replacing pistons.

Adam

 

[gsxtacy]

Super 104 octane booster and all the other OTS (off the shelf) Octane Booster is great for a Corvette guy looking to gain a point or so in octane.

The main ADVANTAGE to toluene is:

DING DING DING

They sell it at Walmart, Home Paint Dept. 24 hours a day seven days a week in 1,000's of cities across America.

Sunoco 100 Unleaded, VP C16, VP C12 and pretty much every other "race fuel" is not available everywhere all day long and is NOT for sale "after business hours".....or never seems to be available when you only want 1-3 gallons...