1G Alternator problem from oil leak?

[Mech Addict]

So I noticed my coolant warning light came on several weeks ago. Checked the level and it was full. Then I realized that there are actually three lights coming on all together: Coolant level, Battery, and Brake. They are often dimly lit, and actually blink, but always the three exactly the same. I posted this at the end of a similar 2011 post, and saw comments about alternator issues causing this. 1990TSITALON even chimed in that he had a similar symptom and it was fixed by swapping the alternator. So I though- time for a new alternator. I did check the harness, and everything looked/felt sound. Belt was fine. It is actually charging just fine, because I've been driving the car and no starting problems at all. Very strong. Then I spent a little time with a Classified seller offering an oem unit, but it turned out faulty, so we scrapped that plan.

Then this weekend I was doing the first gear oil change on my rebuilt trans and xfer, and happened to check my oil. Off the stick. So I added what was a mostly full quart from my last change. Barely on the stick. Thing is, there is no smoke, and there is a drip on the driveway, but only very small. Like a half dollar overnight. Nothing to explain that consumption, except, I'm thinking it is somewhere around the oil filter housing, which is also Right Near the Alternator. So my current theory is: Oil under pressure is leaking out while driving, making the level fall more than I would expect from the little drip I find when parked. I lost around 2 quarts in a bit over 1,000 miles. Not smoking at all. Alternator is oily on case, and likely all up inside who knows where. So, a few questions as I prepare to tackle this more.

Can an alternator be de-oiled after this? Obviously I can spray brake cleaner all through it, and that will remove the oil from of it. But will that also remove the grease from the little bearings in there. And will it get the oil out of the parts that are causing the malfunction (if that is actually the cause of this electrical gremlin). Alternators aren't that expensive, so I'm not too worried to simply replace it, assuming I fix the "actual" cause, the oil leak.

Question 2: Can the Oil filter Housing be removed without taking off the entire front cover? I need to remove the plastic belt covers and have a look in there. I did the t-belt only a few thousand miles ago, so not like I would have any use to do much other maintenance in there at this point. If I could remove just the OFH, then I could replace that gasket, and check the rest of it for cracks, and perhaps change out the regulator o-ring. In the FSM this seems do-able, though they describe a stepwise sequence that starts with removing the pan (which I would also like to avoid). That would take removing the xfer (which I just filled with nice new Mits gear oil). I did take the top t-belt cover off, and it looks nice and dry, so where ever this oil is leaking from (and ending up on the cross-member and control arm, and alternator of course) it's not ending up on the belt. Otherwise I would park the car until I fixed it.

Bonus points for anyone who knows why those three warning lights come on together like that (Steve?). I'll post of video when I get home.

 

[AWD-Tony]

Almost certain the cover has to come off to remove ofh. Think the upper right bolt is under the cover. I can double check in a few

Confirmed Ted

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[We're on Boost]

It could be the oil filter housing is cracked. GST with PSI said he cracked his housing when replacing the oil pressure sending unit (May 17, 2018). So he replaced it with a new one and showed a few pics. Not many words though. In post #362 here:

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/gstwithpsi-galant-vr4-1837-of-2000.482807/page-15

If his really did crack when replacing the sender, then I suppose that means the male tapered pipe threads split the housing material, just guessing. Something to think about if you ever change that sender.

If you think you might need a new OFH I wouldn't feel bad about buying a new one if they are still available.
When ER was building my engine, Lucas asked me if I wanted to keep the 1990 type OFH or go to one of the other ones. I said I wanted to keep the 1990. He said ok, but they didn't reuse my old one. They bought a new one. I think just preemptively.

 

[Mech Addict]

AWD-Tony; yes, I figured the plastic cover had to come off, which isn't too major, even for my lazy-@ss. I am hoping that the front case doesn't have to be removed (basically the entire t-belt project I just did plus removing the pan, which is a much longer weekend. Plus that can always uncover more rabbit holes...

We're On Boost: Thanks for the info. I'll check that connection, although I haven't swapped the sender myself. When I bought the car it was losing so much p.s. fluid from that side, that I couldn't really tell how much engine oil it also might have been leaking. I see folks selling 90 OFH somewhat routinely. I might have even seen one in the classifieds today (I check those pretty much every day). Same add had alternators available. New ones may be NLA, based only on the fact that JNZ now has them listed for $999, which means they are at least out of stock. They are my go-to, but I have ordered from the other vendors plenty as well. I'm really hoping it's just the gasket, mostly because I already have a replacement gasket, and that's pretty easy to fix. If the housing itself is toast, then I'll re-assess at that point (J-B Weld?). If you might have one to sell, you'll be first on my list of folks to contact. Much Thanks.

 

[We're on Boost]

When I bought the car it was losing so much p.s. fluid from that side, that I couldn't really tell how much engine oil it also might have been leaking.

Did I ever tell you about my alternator fire?
It was from PS fluid leaking out of the high pressure fluid fitting on top of the PS pump, dripping off the bottom of the pump and into the alternator. It made black smoke for about 20 seconds or so which blew out through the left wheel well like crazy. Was scary as heck. But I pulled into a parking lot immediately, and by the time I got the hood up with fire extinguisher in one hand, the fire was out. There was no motor oil leaking at the time, it was just PS fluid.

Here's the weirder part. When I got home I checked the alternator voltage with engine running and it was low (about 12.0 volts) so I replaced the alternator. Then about a year later I put that same alternator back on the car just for a test, and it worked, ran the system at about 13.7 volts. So I have kept it for a spare, and I call it the Zombie alternator.

The notes I have for engine idling voltage with a dead alternator say that the battery dashboard light was dim, voltage measured at the battery and also at the alt B post was 12.0 volts, and after shutting the engine off the battery voltage went back up to 12.7 volts very quickly all by itself, no charger on it. But I had freshly charged the battery just before running this test. I don't have any notes about what the other lights were doing when the battery light was dim.

 

[Mech Addict]

Thankfully I’ve managed to fix my p.s. leaks (rack and pump), so it’s just engine oil now. I’m theorizing that it is the ofh because the location seems about right, and that the ofh gets full (high-side) oil pressure from the pump. My gauge reads normal, just right of center. I will check the running volts later this morning. Also trying to add a video of the dash lights, but it doesn’t seem to post.

 

[AWD-Tony]

Put die in the oil so you can definitively see where the leak is from. The die won’t lie to you .

 

[Mech Addict]

Update, the battery voltage at idle is 14.3V, which is a little high. I don’t know if this is new, or if it has been like that before my warning lights issue came up.

 

[dwb]

You might want to check the oil cooler and that it is tight against the OFH. That oil cooler bolt (see attached diagram) can work it's way loose. Might also want to check your seal (also see diagram).

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As far as cleaning the alt, I've blasted mine with a car wash soap wand and pressure washer with no ill effects (yet).

 

[wparks]

14.3V is not high for the alternator running. It will when running hold the battery at the "Absorb" or "Topping" voltage of 14.2-14.6V typically depending upon load. All is good there. BTW- the bearings in the alternator are sealed, unlikely to be harmed with a quick spray of brake cleaner, but I would still avoid it because you don't know if you are going to soften the plastic on windings, etc and even an oil bath is unlikely to cause anything in the alternator to fail. I'd just spray out the connector and plug with electronic cleaner or WD-40, wipe off the outside and call it good.

When I have hunted down oil leaks before there is really no shortcut- you have to clean all of the old oil residue away (spray-on engine cleaner, short soak, good light brushing, and a water rinse work wonders). Once it's all clean and dry, and only then, will you find the new wet spot. Oil is so bad at migrating it's tough to locate unless you do this. Water should also not harm the alternator, but I would minimize how much of a bath you give it. Too much water can work it's way into bearings.

 

[We're on Boost]

Also trying to add a video of the dash lights, but it doesn’t seem to post

Yeah I don't see it in the thumbnails on the DSMtuners YouTube channel videos page, which is here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-ET5tEjPgOHbHyrHw4nKaw/videos
If it was posted it would be there.

I don't know why your charging (battery) light is on at all with 14.3 volts at idle. I do see a very vague mention in the electrical FSM that might be the reason. It says:
"The charging warning light illuminates dimly. Check the diode (within the combination meter) for a short-circuit."
That is on page 8-143 of the 1990-91 electrical FSM.

Pages 8-142 and 8-143 have a lot of the info that could be related. Do you have those pages? I could post screen shots of them if you don't. Page 8-142 shows the alternator voltage specs at 4 different temperatures. Your 14.3 is right in there. My voltages have usually been a few tenths lower, closer to the bottom of the ranges given on page 8-142.

I see the diode "within the combination meter" that they are talking about on page 8-143. In the schematic it's in the little box they drew for "Combination Meter". In the little box is a light bulb and a diode. Don't know if that's going to be the problem but it's what they are talking about in the Troubleshooting Hints.

The same schematic also shows the "Alternator Relay" which is also a diode (plus a resistor in series) but it seems to me like that one is operating ok.

Here's page 8-143:

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If you wanted to check the "Alternator Relay" it's easy if you have a multimeter with a diode symbol on the dial.
Once you get the meter probes on the correct 2 pins coming out of the "relay" the meter would read about 0.5 volts, which is the "jump-over" voltage of a diode. Then it's ok.

 

[Mech Addict]

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OK, tried loading video again. Working?

OK, I think video upload worked. At least I can view it. That is taken after a cold start in the morning after a 30 minute drive home the night before. It doesn't seem to be as bad if drive sparingly during the day. Trying to imagine that somehow this is because of how much or little oil gets splashed up on the alternator on long drives (and driving faster) vs. how much slings off on short drives, low power operation. So far there is no other detectable difference in how the car operates aside from three lights, either flashing with engine speed or simply dim all the time. Brushes in the alternator soaked with more or less oil?

 

[dwb]

Could it be a grounding issue? Engine block ground or possibly the alternator mount if it's super grimy.

 

[Mech Addict]

Could it be a grounding issue? Engine block ground or possibly the alternator mount if it's super grimy.

I haven’t ruled that out. I gave a tug on the alt wiring and it felt snug.
I’ll give it a look over more carefully.
And in response to your previous suggestion about the oil/water cooler connection, mine is a 90 with the oil/air cooling. Those do gave supply and return fittings, and haven’t ruled them out either. One way or another I need to stop the leak, and perhaps get the warning lights to stop flashing as a side benefit.

 

[We're on Boost]

I don't know. It's strange the way the 3 lights blink in unison when your revs are up a little bit (~3,000). Then, at like ~8 sec in the video when your turn the steering, the lights are on bright, and I can't see the tach but it must be down close to idle speed. Your 14.3 volts mentioned earlier was at idle. If the Charging light is on when your voltage is 14.3, that is wrong, unless the connection at the alternator "L" terminal is off. (Charging voltage at the "L" terminal extinguishes the charging light.) So that connector that has the L and S terminals in it might be goofed up.
All that oscillating (blinking) when the revs are over ~2,500 makes me wonder if the alternator output voltage is actually oscillating like that when the lights are blinking. Too bad you can't log it.

I wish the regulators were still in a separate module like they were at one time, what, 80 years ago? I would love it if the alternator was just the bare bones mechanical stuff that can live ok at highish temps, and all the electronic stuff was way off somewhere else, maybe on the firewall, and people could be building custom regulators, modified regulators, high power regulators, etc, and you wouldn't have to replace the mechanical and electronic stuff all at once just for one little piece of it wearing out.

Even without any logging, you could still tell a lot by having a voltmeter run off the cigarette lighter circuit, visible to you while driving. The easiest way to do that is with a little single purpose voltmeter that plugs right into the cig lighter.
Like this one:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ino-3721

The head on this one pivots so you can angle it up towards you for easy reading.
The Innova brand is a good inexpensive brand, it is not a "no-name". My cheaper multimeter is an Innova 3320 and it has been through hell several times and is about 15 years old now and still is very accurate. It's the one I don't have to be so careful with, because it only costs $30 to replace it. (Amazon Prime)
I just googled "voltmeter cigarette lighter" and found several of these things, but the Innova is probably what I would get.
The voltmeter I actually have in my Talon is a plain digital panel meter that I had to make a panel for, to install it in the car. But it is wired into the cig lighter circuit. This circuit works when the ign key is in "ACC" or "ON". Love it being able to check voltage just by turning the key to ACC. Plus checking it on a drive, I know that if the voltage drops to ~12 volts and stays there, I have about 10 minutes to get home before the car stops running. I have a shot of it in my Specs and Photos, "Volt meter in Talon".

 

[Mech Addict]

Ha, good suggestion if I had a cigarette lighter. I do have the parts, but need to install them.
My old Dodge has such a mechanical regulator, and it is on the firewall. It’s actually constructed with a coil connected to a set of contact points, and regulates by being completely open or closed as the voltage swings above or below an adjustable set point. Mopar went to electronic around 1970, and I think the alternator changed at that time too. It will run with the battery down to around 7V. The lights will stop working long before the engine quits. I have a story about that for another time.

I’m wondering if the alternator regulator or brushes are oil-soaked and somehow causing a backfeed of current that triggers those lights.
In addition to the normal types of oil leaks this may have to do with excess crankcase pressure not properly vented in the PCV system. My dipstick is occasionally unseated, and there is oil making past the fill cap onto the cover. So checking the the PCV valve is now on my short list, too. My fill cap has no gasket, so that is also on the list, but it is likely serving as a safety valve of sorts for the time being. Could be a good example of how problems cascade to cause other problems, or perhaps just two (three?, more-tbd?) issues unrelated.
Each time I fix some things, I get to find more issues to correct. Hobby car + daily driver = wife questioning my sanity.

 

[We're on Boost]

Each time I fix some things, I get to find more issues to correct.

That's how it is with me too, except my car is not at all a daily driver. Oh yeah, and I haven't been married for a long time.
I haven't driven my car since June 27, because the in-tank fuel pump quit, and I had been wanting to take a look inside the fuel tank anyway, so I started with that, and I've done a lot of stuff since then that was all one thing leading to another. A few days into it I found out that the fuse blew in the "rewire" wire to the pump. But I wanted to know why it blew. Because the pump still seems ok. Turns out the "rewire" wire was rubbing on the exposed part of the steering column where it goes into the rack, and it wore a tiny little pin hole through the insulation that was so small I had to verify it with probes from my multimeter. Another goof by ER! But now I've got all kinds of stuff new or redone that I wouldn't have done yet without this flubbup!