Alignment Question's

[Nofear20]

Ok, so I recently lowered my car 1.5" with the Tokico Illumina suspension kit. I just took it in to get aligned. I was told the rear camber was good (I used the homemade camber kit, 3 washers each bolt), but the toe was a little off. He told me the toe adjusters are rusted and he can not adjust.

As for the front, he said he adjusted the toe some, but the camber was off. Said I could get some adjustable ball joints for $110 plus an hour of installation.

I attached the paper he gave me with all the numbers (please ask if some numbers aren't readable).. Please let me know what I should do. Do I need a front camber kit? Do I need to fix the rear toe? Thanks!!!

click on image to make numbers bigger

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[snowborder714]

I'm not sure what to tell you about the toe. It shows different numbers for the before and actual (for the front), yet he couldn't adjust them? This could be the guy just moving the wheel around until the numbers line up. If this is the case, I would get the toe fixed since this is the big culprit of tire wear, not camber. Either way, the rears look too far out for my liking. I would want them at zero all around.

To fix the caster difference (if you'd like), you can flip the bushing of the drivers side arm.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/176057-resolved-2g-caster-changing.html

And you could probably put more positive camber back into the rear if you'd like. I think the road racing/autox guys on here typically run -1.5* front and -.75* rear as a starting point.

 

[Nofear20]

So is the front camber ok then?

I have no idea what caster is.

 

[snowborder714]

I would say the front camber is fine.

 

[illeffekt vr-4]

Try getting the TOE setting to 0 all around. Camber is not bad but it should match on both end of the car. So the fronts could both be -1.4*
You can go up to a -2* of camber on a car that's being driven aggressive on the street so your -1.4* is not bad at all but again make sure both left and right front wheel have the same camber. Same goes for the rear.

 

[Nofear20]

So how do I go about getting the toe in the rear to 0 if the adjuster is rusted?

 

[snowborder714]

Is it your tie rods are rusted so you can't loosen them? Or are the bolts in the subframe rusted?

 

[tsunari]

You probably want to get the toe as close to zero in both front and back. If the rear adjustments are rusted to where they can not be adjusted, you will need to order new lower control arms.

The front camber looks ok, but depending on how wide of a tire you run, you may notice some pull with the sides not being equal (a camber kit may fix this) The Front caster looks to be somewhat normal.

How does she handle?

 

[Nofear20]

Pulls to the right slightly

 

[Nofear20]

Couldn't tell you. I'm just telling you what the Les Schwab guy told me.

Is it your tie rods are rusted so you can't loosen them? Or are the bolts in the subframe rusted?

 

[snowborder714]

I would ask them what exactly is preventing them from adjusting your toe. Or take it someplace else and ask if they'd look at it and see if they'd be able to.

I have uneven camber up front. Not exact same numbers, but same difference of .3*. Mine doesn't pull one way or the other. My guess for the pull is the caster difference. The factory changed this starting in '97 from even side to side to more on the passengers side. This was to account for the car drifting on crowned roads.

 

[rbwtrans]

Rear toe is important also. If your rear toe is out (sorry I couldn't get your #'s to pull up) then your car will "dogtrack", causing the rear of the car to steer the front.

 

[Nofear20]

Ok, so I talked to the guy at Les Schwab. He told me he sprayed some stuff on the rear toe adjuster to try and help with the rust. I want to continue to spray some pbblaster on there and then take the car back in next week and see if he can adjust it.. my question is, where is the adjuster? Can I get a pic? I don't even know where to spray. Thanks!

Can anyone point me in the direction as to where the rear toe adjusters are? Thanks.

 

[ranger87]

Im trying to get a pic for you. The camber looks good (within specs) on the rear, the front is a little low. You said it had a slight right pull, according to your specs should go left. Vehicles will pull to high camber and low caster, both of wich are on the left. The guy at Schwabs should be able to shift the cradle enough to fix the caster, and I would put a camber kit in the front. I think the toe adjuster is on the forward lower control arm at the cradle, cam bolt style. I do alignments for a living 12 years now. Hope that helps a little.

 

[snowborder714]

The guy at Schwabs should be able to shift the cradle enough to fix the caster

What do you mean by this?

Our cars do not have adjustable caster from the factory. There are aftermarket parts (ie. SPC upper control arms) that will allow you to adjust caster. But the only way that I know of to get the caster closer is to flip the bushing in the curved control arm on the driver's side. This will add about 1* of caster to that side to at least get it closer to the passenger's side.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

you could probably put more positive caster back into the rear if you'd like. I think the road racing/autox guys on here typically run -1.5* front and -.75* rear as a starting point.

I know you meant camber and not caster. For a street car with a little spunk your suggestion of -1.5* in the front and -0.75* is ideal.

The OP's front camber is just dandy, however, as other have suggested I like 0.00* for front toe. Yours could be adjusted further if the shop wanted to spend more than a minute setting it up.

Try getting the TOE setting to 0 all around. Camber is not bad but it should match on both end of the car. So the fronts could both be -1.4*
You can go up to a -2* of camber on a car that's being driven aggressive on the street so your -1.4* is not bad at all but again make sure both left and right front wheel have the same camber. Same goes for the rear.

I agree, except for the bits about equal camber front and back, and zero toe front and back. My personal preference for handling and streetability (read: tire wear) is half of the negative camber in the rear as you're running in the front. e.g. -1.5* front and -0.75* in the rear. I also like to see absolute zero toe up front and just a tiny bit of toe-in (negative toe) in the rear. Something like -0.05*. This is for straight line stability, especially under braking. It's a safety thing. This advice can also be found in the suspension FAQ.

If the rear adjustments are rusted to where they can not be adjusted, you will need to order new lower control arms.

This is correct. Check out Wret's write up for seized rear control arm bushings in the tech article section. There is a tutorial with pictures there.
I'm afraid that no amount of pb blaster will solve this but it's worth a shot because I certainly don't want to do all that cutting and replace even more suspension parts.

Our cars do not have adjustable caster from the factory. There are aftermarket parts (ie. SPC upper control arms) that will allow you to adjust caster. But the only way that I know of to get the caster closer is to flip the bushing in the curved control arm on the driver's side. This will add about 1* of caster to that side to at least get it closer to the passenger's side.

This is also correct. However, I do not feel that having equal caster is crucial. The cars were designed this way for the reasons Snowboarder mentioned above. In fact, typically all cars are engineering this way. But if it suits you by all means flip that inboard compression arm bushing or invest in control arms that have adjustable caster.

Here are some useful links regarding the topics:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/frequently-answered-dsm-questions/169437-suspension-faqs.html
Camber, Caster, Toe-in, Toe-out / Intrax Suspension

 

[snowborder714]

I know you meant camber and not caster. For a street car with a little spunk your suggestion of -1.5* in the front and -0.75* is ideal.

Doh!

Thanks for that catch.

 

[ranger87]

All vehicles that the lower control arms connect to the subframe will have a minimal amount of caster adjustment usually +/- .5 degrees. I am going to verify this on my buddies 95 GSX . Not that this is a factory adjustment, but it usually gives just enough to compensate or at least get it closer. No the caster is not a big of a deal as camber and toe, but the closer the better. Loosen the sub frame bolts on one side, insert prybar between subframe and body pry forward for positive or backwards for negative and tighten, repeat on other side. Short easy version.