Alignment question

[adonis]

This is a question in reference to a 1997 Eclipse GST

I purchased 4 tires about 3 months ago. About a month ago, I put in new tie-rod ends...and I'm not sure if that did it, but my front tires are worn to absolute baldness on the inside.

The tires overall look worn down quite a bit, but they are completely bald on the inside.

What can I do to fix this, as I can't just do a normal alignment without buying those new upper-control arms...(or can i?)

I have no suspension modifications done aside from just putting in those tie-rod ends (not lowered). The front does look a little bit lower than the rear though.

 

[leet]

It sounds like your toe adjustment is out of spec, rather badly.

When you put on the tie rod ends, you should have gotten an alignment. I suggest you get one now.

 

[Doug99RS]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1178655#post1178655

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44574

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44577

Maybe this will help.
Doug

 

[dont need 8]

When I changed my tie rod ends the handling was so scary I was afraid to drive to a place to get an alignment.

Suprised you didn't notice a huge difference also. Get it aligned.

 

[n0c7]

I had that problem, but it was due to camber. The tires on the outside were near-mint, but the insides were down to the metal shielding they were so bad. Camber kits all around fixed the problem on mine, but my car has a 2" drop.

 

[adonis]

When I changed my tie rod ends the handling was so scary I was afraid to drive to a place to get an alignment.

Suprised you didn't notice a huge difference also. Get it aligned.

did you have to buy new upper-control arms to get it aligned?

i tried to get it aligned and the guy said he needs to order new control arms. all-in-all, he said the alignment would cost around $390. (bullshit)

 

[leet]

WHAT?!

390 for an ALIGNMENT?!

Go somewhere else.

You may need camber correction kits depending on your ride height, but you won't need new Upper Control Arms.

 

[Doug99RS]

i tried to get it aligned and the guy said he needs to order new control arms. all-in-all, he said the alignment would cost around $390. (bullshit)

Leet, the guy said that the total cost of the repairs, parts and the alignment would be $390. Not the alignment by itself. Just because you can go somewhere else and get JUST the alignment done and it's less than half of $390 doesn't mean you're getting a good deal. If the cheaper guy doesn't replace the failing parts then all he did was take your money and you still have to do the repairs that the $390 guy quoted.

Also, it was never explained why the upper control arms were needed so you shouldn't tell the guy that he doesn't need a part just because you THINK so. The arms could be bent, ball joint boot could be completely gone and the joint filled with cement, or there could be a crack in the thing and it's about to fall off. No part of a failing upper control arm, in the manors I just explained above, can be fixed using a camber correction kit.
D

 

[adonis]

he didn't say they were bent or anything.

he said that the 1997 eclipse gst can not be aligned without new upper-control arms.

in its stock form, can an alignment be done on this car?

 

[leet]

Doug,

I read that it would cost 390 for the alignment.

He said there was no problems with the suspension, merely that the 'mechanic' stated he would need new uppers to align it. He didn't state WHY he said that.

If he can get the mechanic to explain to him why they need to be replaced, that would be nice.

Your whole post is a big collection of 'If'. Perhaps if the poster would give us more information, we could give him a solution instead of both flinging WAG's around.

I'm STILL trying to figure out how you assumed where I said a camber kit would fix a failing control arm.

Mike

 

[Doug99RS]

A lack of clarity all around seems to be the culprit to this ruffling of feathers. So... I'll state what I KNOW then what I enterpretted and then we can smooth things out from there.

The Facts:
The 2g does NOT HAVE to have the upper control arms replaced at every alignment.

There are no FACTORY adjustments that you can make to this control arm for camber, caster, nor toe.

My Interpretations/mis-interpretations:
"i tried to get it aligned and the guy said he needs to order new control arms. all-in-all, he said the alignment would cost around $390."

The inclusion of the phrase all-in-all I interpretted as being the new control arms, labor to install them and the alignment adjustments. With the total cost including all of the above then I saw that as being MORE work than JUST an alignment which completely justified why the cost was $390.00.

"390 for an ALIGNMENT?!"
I interpretted that as it is clearly typed. An alignment.... which costs $390.00. Had you said "There are only toe adjustments on the 2g's and as such, $390.00 is excessive to perform ONLY an alignment." This could have also been followed up by saying "Since he's charging you for new control arms, the labor to put them in and the labor time for an alignment then I find the price to be (fill in your opinion here)."

"You may need camber correction kits depending on your ride height, but you won't need new Upper Control Arms."

I interpretted this as you discrediting a mechanic, who has yet to be proven incompetent (we still do live in America and we're innocent until proven stupid) by saying he was trying to replace parts that aren't needed for the job. Only to follow it up by saying that new parts weren't needed. But in all actuality, based on what Adonis had posted prior to the begining of our little altercation, neither of us knew the condition of the upper control arms. So... as such, to SAY that he won't need them based on your opinion or your own experience would not do Adonis any good because we simply don't know the condition of his actual parts.

So based on my interpretation of Adonis' responses and yours as well, I responded in the manor I did. BUT since I read " he didn't say they were bent or anything." then I do not retract my statements but in fact still think the situation is unclear. I DO agree with you mike that we need a better explanation, now from the mechanic, before either of us could be proved right, wrong, or indifferent.

So lets keep the information flowing and see what we can all come up with.
Thanks,
Doug

 

[adonis]

Sorry for the confusion/lack of information.

The mechanic did not say they were bent or that there was damage to the suspension. He pointed out the upper-control arms to me and how there is no place to make the adjustments required for an alignment.

The $390 quote was indeed for the parts, labor, and alignment (not just the alignment itself). So basically, what i'm trying to figure out here is...do I need a whole alignment done (toe-in, caster, camber) or does this sound like a problem with my camber? From what I've gathered from information posted, I'm leaning towards the camber being off. This problem showed itself when I put in those tie-rods and yes, I did notice a major difference in how it handles. No matter what turn I take (or how slow...), I can hear the tires squeal during the turn.

Now, if the car needs a whole alignment done, is this possible on the stock '97 GST suspension or did Mitsubishi make those control arms unadjustable? If they're not adjustable, is there another way to perform a proper alignment.

I really appreciate the help from you guys; Responses on this board have helped me tremendously with my car. If I can put up any more information to help properly figure out the problem, ask. I've got digital pictures/video I can put up if needed.

 

[Doug99RS]

In light of this extra info I think it's pretty safe to say that the mechanic indeed is not familiar enough with the DSM to allow him to work on it.

The 2g's did NOT have replaceable upper control arms, from mitsu, that would then allow for camber adjustments.

If you're still on stock springs then you do NOT need a camber correction kit unless you REALLY wanted to have camber set to dead on the money specs. In most cases there are no problems with the camber found on stock rides.

$390 isn't a bad price for what he said he was going to do but what he said he was going to do is NOT necessary. I'm willing to wager a good chunk of change that you toe is WAY out of wack and that you only need it put back in to specs.

So... with all that in mind do like Mike/Leet said and go somewhere else .
D

 

[wret]

Did they give you a report with your current measurements? It does sound like your camber is off. Typically it would be negative if your car were lowered (or sagging). Negative camber is not necessarily a bad thing. There have been several discussions in this forum about it. Negative camber coupled with toe-in or out will eat your tires in short order though.

If the issue is negative camber and it's not excessive, you probably don't need to wory about it, just get your toe corrected. If it's induced by sagging springs, consider replacing the springs, not the control arms.

 

[leet]

Hey Doug, no hard feelings bro.

I was just trying to clarify what I said.

 

[adonis]

Did they give you a report with your current measurements? It does sound like your camber is off.

Bingo. I'll take the car and get those measurements before making any decision. Thanks for that great suggestion.

 

[x camaro owner]

first off only toe can be adjusted is correct second off if you posted a pic of the worn tires i could tell you right off the bat if it was a toe problem and camber problem caused by a bad ball joint or bent control arm.

 

[wookieneck]

So it sounds like a camber kit is a must if you are lowering your car any at all?

 

[Doug99RS]

Toe is the greatest killer of tires when you lower the car. Anytime you change camber like raising or lowering the car, the toe changes as well even if you never break loose the tie rod ends. Lowering a car does not require a camber correction kit EVERY time. The mild 1.3 Drop will give you a bit more negative camber, it may show in the Red on an alignment machine, but the negative camber will improve handling a bit.

Bottom line:
Lowering a car will ALWAYS require an alignment
The alignment is for correcting the toe because bad camber and bad toe will destroy tires
Negative camber, when only moderately negative can be acceptable for some drivers
D

 

[dont need 8]

did you have to buy new upper-control arms to get it aligned?

i tried to get it aligned and the guy said he needs to order new control arms. all-in-all, he said the alignment would cost around $390. (bullshit)

Nope, it was around 76.01 tax and all for all 4 wheels.

before adjusting (i have eibach prokits too)

left front
camber -1.1 caster 4.0 toe .55
right front
camber -.09 caster 5.2 toe .65

total front
toe 1.20 steer ahead -.05

Left Rear
camber -2.3 toe .38
Right Rear
camber -2.3 toe .65

Total Rear
toe .64 thrust angle .07

After adjusting

Left Front
camber -1.1 (-.5 out of spec) caster 4.0 (in spec) toe -.02 (in spec)
Right Front
camber -.09 (-.3 out of spec) caster 5.2 (in spec) toe .03 (in spec)

Total Front
Toe 0.0 (in spec) steer ahead -.03 (in spec)

Left Rear
camber -2.4 (-.6 out of spec) toe .09 (in spec)
Right Rear
camber -2.4 (-.6 out of spec) toe .08 (in spec)

Total Rear
toe .17 (in spec) thrust angle .01 (in spec)

The amount of extra negative camber in my case, about .5 degree, didn't seem to warrant camber kits. What do you guys think? Tire wear is even from what I have seen.

 

[Doug99RS]

(i have eibach prokits too)

left front
camber -1.1 ---------caster 4.0 ----------toe .55
right front
camber -.09 ---------caster 5.2 ----------toe .65


Left Rear
camber -2.3 -----------toe .38
Right Rear
camber -2.3 ------------toe .65


After adjusting

Left Front
camber -1.1 ------- caster 4.0-------- toe -.02
Right Front
camber -.09 --------caster 5.2---------toe 0.0

Left Rear
camber -2.4----------toe .09
Right Rear
camber -2.4 --------- toe .08


The amount of extra negative camber in my case, about .5 degree, didn't seem to warrant camber kits. What do you guys think? Tire wear is even from what I have seen.

Could your Camber reading for the right front actually be a typo and should have been -0.9? If so then I would say that it is acceptable. As you noted the camber is beyond the normal tolerance but given the application I think it's acceptable. Your Front Toe WAS way out of whack as I expected but it cleaned up nicely. All in all the numbers are where they need to be. Camber, without the use of a camber correction kit, is ok, the toe was brought back in to spec. You will notice about a 0.5 degree difference in the caster. This has been pretty common in 2g's and is nothing to worry about again.

If the camber truly is at -0.09 on the right front and -1.1 then I would look in to a camber correction kit. The more positive camber on the right is going to cause the left tire to push the car right. Toe can be tweaked to compensate for a slight pull due to camber but it will then open the door back up for toe related wear. Looking at your numbers you gave and noting of the distance from "spec" I think you meant 0.9 which 0.2 degrees difference from side to side is negligable.
Doug

 

[wookieneck]

Toe is the greatest killer of tires when you lower the car. Anytime you change camber like raising or lowering the car, the toe changes as well even if you never break loose the tie rod ends. Lowering a car does not require a camber correction kit EVERY time. The mild 1.3 Drop will give you a bit more negative camber, it may show in the Red on an alignment machine, but the negative camber will improve handling a bit.

Bottom line:
Lowering a car will ALWAYS require an alignment
The alignment is for correcting the toe because bad camber and bad toe will destroy tires
Negative camber, when only moderately negative can be acceptable for some drivers
D

So is that a yes or a no?
I realize that I will need to get it aligned when I lower, what im questioning is if I lower it and take it to the shop are they gonna say "we cant get it back in, no adjustment left"

Its looking like I have to go down about 2 inches, and I dont want to spend the money of the camber kits if I dont have to. Are they neccesary at that ride height to bring things back to factory specs?
Then comes the question of which type of camber kit is best, there looks to be several.